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  1. #26
    Duster Guest

    Post

    With that kind of attitude, getting Out <b>should get out</b>. There are plenty of hosting comaponies with a bad attitude as it is. One lless is a step in the right direction. That high a level of chargebacks indicated a huge amount of customer dissatisfaction, and it's not hard to see why. The attitude says much.

    The reason many people look for unlimited resources is <b>because many hosting companies lied to them and advertised unlimited bandwidth, unlimited hits, unlimited this and that.</b> A site administrator almost has to have a bad experience with a host, having a site shut down, cgi disables, extrta charges on the credit card, before being told by the host "we said unlimited but we didn't really mean unlimited". In other words, they deliberately lied to get your business and had no intentions of honoring their contract.
    Stop lying to people and you won't find as many asking about unlimited resources. All you hosts that carte more about attracting new customers and don't take care of the ones you already have deserve what you get, aloss of clients and word sprteading about your lack of service and honoring your claims.

    To Alex, the best defense is to take good care of yourcustomers and don't make false claims. You'll likely find them rising to your defense when they read soemthing derogatory posted that doesn't fit in with their experiences. I've seen it happen elsewhere. Also, most reasonable people know that any businesse will have a few complaints simply because some customers make outrageous demands and can't (and shouldn't) be accommodated. Many of us want to know particulars. When the irate customer posts them, "they wouldn't help at all with creating my site" reasonable people will laugh at their stupidity in complaining and tell them to do their own work

    It can helop to spell out exactly waht you do and don't do and refer such customers to that page, even make it part of what they ahve to acknowledge in order to open an account.

  2. #27
    Duster Guest

    Post

    With that kind of attitude, getting Out <b>should get out</b>. There are plenty of hosting comaponies with a bad attitude as it is. One lless is a step in the right direction. That high a level of chargebacks indicated a huge amount of customer dissatisfaction, and it's not hard to see why. The attitude says much.

    The reason many people look for unlimited resources is <b>because many hosting companies lied to them and advertised unlimited bandwidth, unlimited hits, unlimited this and that.</b> A site administrator almost has to have a bad experience with a host, having a site shut down, cgi disables, extrta charges on the credit card, before being told by the host "we said unlimited but we didn't really mean unlimited". In other words, they deliberately lied to get your business and had no intentions of honoring their contract.
    Stop lying to people and you won't find as many asking about unlimited resources. All you hosts that carte more about attracting new customers and don't take care of the ones you already have deserve what you get, aloss of clients and word sprteading about your lack of service and honoring your claims.

    To Alex, the best defense is to take good care of yourcustomers and don't make false claims. You'll likely find them rising to your defense when they read soemthing derogatory posted that doesn't fit in with their experiences. I've seen it happen elsewhere. Also, most reasonable people know that any businesse will have a few complaints simply because some customers make outrageous demands and can't (and shouldn't) be accommodated. Many of us want to know particulars. When the irate customer posts them, "they wouldn't help at all with creating my site" reasonable people will laugh at their stupidity in complaining and tell them to do their own work

    It can help to spell out exactly waht you do and don't do and refer such customers to that page, even make it part of what they ahve to acknowledge in order to open an account.

  3. #28
    getting_out Guest

    Post

    I appreciate AG, Guest#1 and Web Host Owner's honest comments. I think they are valuable to customers who just 'dont get it', which is unfourtunately a majority of them.

    However, I am disturbed by the backlash to Davey's comments. Whether Truehosting offers a valueable service or not, negative comments that are unfounded (without evidence) should not be tolerated.

    ROFL et al should learn they're lesson quick, or be sure to stay anonymous.

    The covert-slander leaves Web Hosts of all kinds completely defenseless. In my experiences, web sites like this one frequently do not cooperate with attempts by Web Hosts to remove slander (most notably, HostSearch). It's unfourtunate that we will need to wait for the underdeveloped internet slander laws to catch-up before it will end.

    As for the notion that I was just one of those in it for the 'free ride' or just 'doing it for some extra cash'. Im afraid your mistaken. I've been in the web hosting business for more than 4 years. I know I must sound very pessimistic, but it's difficult to watch an idustry you've been avidly a part of just flop in a matter of a year or so. Oh, and I was not a reseller, atleast not of the server hardware. All web hosts are resellers of something or other (at the very least of bandwidth).

    It's about time Web Hosts got a chance to complain! Customers suck! http://216.167.56.224/forum/ubb/smile.gif

    I agree that the problems web hosting companies are experiencing are often mutually caused by company and consumer. In no way am I trying to put the blame on the consumer (atleast not entirely)... but I am just tired of it and I think I'll leave it to people who are still excited about it's prospects.

    Good luck to Virtualscape, Truehosting and the like. And a word of advice to consumers:

    "Not all web hosts are alike, so do not treat them so."

    and

    "Don't threaten to sick your lawyer on a web host unless you ACTUALLY plan to do so. It can get you into some hot water and most web hosts are experienced enough to know it's 'bull'."

    Adios.

  4. #29
    To Web Host Owner Post Guest

    Post

    I can't believe it! A host owner with a brain and a bank account instead of just a bank account.

    Web Host Owner (previous post)
    If you host both UNIX and NT kindly send me your hosting site URL.

    Thank You
    mailto:NeedHost@NetOnFire.net

  5. #30
    Duster Guest

    Post

    To getting out, good riddance. Your attitude says everything important about you. It explains your enormously high level of chargebacks. No wonder you are so unhappy about customers, you have a lot of former ones that were very unhappy with you.

    To Web Host Owner, you're wrong. The customer is not always right and should always be treated with respect, but not as if anything he or she says is right. Treat them fairly and honestly and most will respect you for it. For the ones that don't, just remember that there are few, if any, absolutes in life so you can't please everybody. If they leave you, they may experience the awful service elsewhere and get what they deserve. Meanwhile, your satisfied customers will recommend others to you.

    To all hosts who really care about doing better:

    1. Don't make false claims, like unlimited anything unless it truly is. Instead, advertise reasonable amounts of resources AND explain why they can't be unlimited. Without mentioning names, you can even explain what happens at many other hosting companies when customers hit the limit on "unlimited" resources, how their accoutns are disabled, additonal charges are incurred, etc. Be up front and honest and you will find many customers who appreciate it. That may be a deciding factor for many, especially if all they see is "unlimited" elsewhere.

    2. Have a definite plan for those customers who do exceed their allocation. It can be an upgrade in space and bandwidth, perhaps on a package or block deal, moving to a server with less domains on it, or even a recommendation of a dedicated server. The better prepared you are, the more confidence you will instill in customers.

    3. You don't stand out from the crowd by being a follower. If you copy what others offer, and advertise as they do (unlimited this, unlimited that), then you are no different than any other hosting company. Instead, if you THINK about EVERY statement you make, make it truthful, tell people the reasons for things (treat them like the intelligent people many are), and put it in terms beginners understand, AND back it up with an attitude that PROVES you care about existing customers (remember, actions talk louder than words), you may be surprised at the volume of business you get and keep. It can be a tiresome thing to move from one host to another and many of us do it only becasue we ar eso dissatisfied with the hosts we have. Finding a reliable one that honors its contract can be a welcome relief.

    It won't matter if they are resellers or not, superior service will yield superior results. If you have a lousy attitude, are fraudulent, and don't treat your cusatomers well, save your whining. You deserve whatever happens to you, like customers leaving. Ask yourselves, would you want to deal with any business that treated YOU like you treat others, lying to them, not delivering on what you contracted for, abusing them, overcharging them, and ignoring their problems? No reasonable person would. Why would you expect us to?

  6. #31
    Web Host Owner Guest

    Post

    Duster,

    No, I am not wrong. I agree that no company can please every customer, nor can every company provide everything that a customer might ask for. Saying that the customer is always right does not mean that you as a company must always bow to their demands - if they're demanding something you simply can't provide, then you can't provide it. That's pretty simple.

    But the customer *is* always right. If they tell you that they need 10 GB of disk space for their hard drive, then they are right - they need it (even if their site is only really using 20 MB or so). You can try to educate them on what they do and don't need -but the end result is if they think they need 10 GB, then they are right - the customer is always right. That doesn't mean you have to give them 10 GB - I tell customers that my company can't meet their needs 2 or 3 times a day, it's not unusual. But I don't ever, ever, ever tell them they're wrong - because they're not, they're always right!

    The customer is *always* right, even when they're wrong. We might not be able to provide every customer with everything they want, and in those situations we will do our best to help them find someone who can provide what they want - but just because we can't do it doesn't mean the customer is wrong.

    The "customer is always right" philosophy does not mean that you as a business must always give in to a customer. If a customer on a $30 a month plan calls up and says they're only going to pay $10 a month because they don't think your prices are good, then they're right. They're only going to pay $10 per month. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to give them a $30 account for $10 - it means that I'll offer to downgrade their account to a $10 account we might offer, or I"ll offer to help them find a web host that offers what they need for $10 a month.

    The customer is always right. We as a company can't always fulfill the customer's right-ness (though we do try when we can), but we always acknowledge the fact that they are right and try to find ways (even if it's referring them to a competitor) to make their needs a reality.

    The customer is *always* right. No exceptions.

  7. #32
    Duster Guest

    Post

    Web Host Owner,

    You're using semantics now and attempting to redefine the customer is always right, just like Clinton tried to redefine sex. It won't work.

    "The customer is *always* right, even when they're wrong."

    That's a politician's answer, an attempt not to take a stand either way.

    "The "customer is always right" philosophy does not mean that you as a business must always give in to a customer."

    But that's how many people would interpret it.

    Guest's customer that thought web design and being a webmaster should be included in the web hosting package wasn't right in expecting it, no matter how much she might like it to be.

    I repeat, you treat all customers fairly and with respect, can acknowledge that they feel their wishes are valid, but not that they are always right. You create your own problems when you treat them as if they can do no wrong. As a reasonable customer mysaelf, I would expect no more and no less.

  8. #33
    Duster, take a breather Guest

    Post

    Duster, You are missing the point.
    Whether the customer is "in fact" wrong or not doesn't matter (and in most cases is subject to your "objective" misinterpretation).

    For one reason or another that customer feels like they are not being taken care of correctly and that is the businesses fault...regardless.

    What is more important.

    You not being able to suck in your ego to find a way to make the "wrong" customer happy and have them get you 100 more accounts or you trying to persistently prove that you are right and have the customer complain to 1000 people about your lousy service and lack of intelligence.

    Yea, you were right, you proved you were right, that customer is an idiot.

    In the meantime Web Host is getting the 100 clients that you could have had while people like me are posting how lousy you are to the world.

    Yup, that customer sure is a moron.


  9. #34
    Duster Guest

    Post

    WHO,

    We probably agree more than disagree on how to treat people. However, your vague, ambiguous, and even contradictory statements "the customer is alwaays right, even when they are wrong" send the wrong message. Politicians give such answers all the time.

    There is nothing wrong about making mistakes and being wrong. We all make them and can learn from them. Problems artise when you think you can do no wrong, or treat customers as if they can't. That doesn't mean you have to belittle them or invalidate their opinion.

    Read what I said about treating customers with respect. Judging from your remarks, you obviously lack the ability to accommodate customers or explain why you can't AND retain their respect and business. A true professional can do all of those things and be thanked for it by their customers. Those in the mediocre majority often resort to being sycophantic in order to get the customers' money. We all operate at the level we can handle. It's not a question of ego, it's a matter of ability, finesse, and a certain aplomb that relatively few people in any business possess.

    I've said all I care to on the subject.

  10. #35
    ATTN Davey Guest

    Post

    imagine my surprise to see Davey/Peter Francis-Macrae/David Jarvis/ or whatever you're calling yourself these days *still* trying to propagate the same lies as you always have.

    For anyone else interested in the "true" True Hosting, take a look at my site http://www.technogirl.net/weaselboy.htm

    For the record:
    None of the items on my site are faked. Complete headers are available, and I've even emailed back and forth with DJ/PFM/et al numerous times and included headers so that he would realize that he can't hide anything - certainly not the fact that he used several different names to respond to email, and that many of those replies came from the same computer.

    I am not now, nor will I ever be, the subject of legal action from this jerk. He has yet to provide any information on pending suits against myself or anyone else (some dating back from May and June of 1999). Research done for me by various individuals reveals NO suits filed under ANY of the names that this guy has used, or under True Hosting or the other company he claimed to be associated with, Vector Enterprises (which, BTW, does not exist). The direct link to all the legal threats he has made is http://www.technogirl.net/99tales/suing_lies.htm
    so you can judge for yourself just how honest a character this guy is.

    Some people have posted their exchanges to THEIR OWN sites. How he imagines I could fake this is beyond me.

    Check with Netcheck at http://www.netcheck.com for their evaluation of this guy as a company. Check at my site for his claims of suing THEM if they continue to send him email asking him to respond to complaints.

    Check this very site, in fact, for messages regarding this guy.

    Check deja for True Hosting and you'll find that complaints regarding this guy started long before I entered the fray.

    This guy continues to harass people for payment on accounts that are closed. Itis fraudulent to do so on accounts that are closed. Numerous people have received emails with "payment due" notices, myself included.

    He has claimed to one individual at www.periscopeonline.net that IBill is a reseller for True Hosting, and that that individual would have to contact IBill to cancel an account (a total lie, as he is just irritated that IBill canned him due to compaints), and then turned around and claimed that a fax to *him* was required. Can't have it both ways.

    The problem with you, Davey, is that you have absolutely NO evidence to back up any claim you've made. Everyone with a gripe against you, however, can certainly point to all kinds of evidence to show you for what you are. It is readily apparent to people with half a brain that True Hosting is bad news.

    Be aware that your postings to this board have been collected, since you continue to claim, without evidence, that I have conjured out of thin air all of the complaints against you. Since you seem to have such a hard time with definitions, let me remind you again that you are engaging in libel. Either provide the evidence for your claim or withdraw it.

    And let me finish this by pointing out to people that this guy contacted me the other day claiming to be "Paul Jarvis". You can read his email to me at my site, on the message board.

    I welcome anyone's inquiries as to the nature of this whole fiasco. If anyone has any doubts whatsoever about the veracity of my claims, and that of others, please let me know.

    Annette
    technightmare@technogirl.net http://www.technogirl.net/weaselboy.htm

  11. #36
    Annette Guest

    Post

    A quick reply to my own reply: I note that Davey has also claimed that I have targetted other web hosting companies in the same way I have complained about his "service". This is completely untrue, and again, I would like him to provide any evidence that it is, or withdraw the claim.

    As for your "upgrading" to Alabanza: Eric at Colossus could certainly tell anyone that you were forced to remove yourself from Colossus' servers. This was entirely apparent for the (almost) week that TH and all hosted sites were down after the cutoff date. Many people can confirm this statement.

    Another for the record: I moved from TrueHosting to ValueWeb, and couldn't be pleased more. I think they are light years ahead of TH's one man operation.

    Annette
    technightmare@technogirl.net http://www.technogirl.net/weaselboy.htm

  12. #37
    Guest Guest

    Post

    See this page for the NetCheck evaluation of TrueHosting: http://netcheck.com/1405N99.htm

  13. #38
    Digityger Guest

    Angry

    My name is Ben Grogan, and not only am I one of the main posters in alt.ww.webmaster (I am the author of the FAQ) but I am also a columnist on MacSimple.com.

    Any of you who would like to see the sterling customer service offered as _late as last week_ should come to alt.www.webmaster and post a message asking what they think of True Hosting. After you have received (literally) hundreds of replies, I would like to see "Davey" (Peter Francis-Macrae) say all these people are Annette Howard. I have emailed Mr. Macrae Myself, headers attached....


    From: "True Hosting" <support@truehosting.com> Save Address - Block Sender
    To: <ben@exosphere.net> Save Address
    Subject: Re:
    Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:30:25 -0000
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Received: from spamraaa.compuserve.com (as-img-rel-1.compuserve.com [149.174.217.142]) by perious.ddyne.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 3.4.2) with SMTP id <B0000551146@perious.ddyne.com> for <ben@exosphere.net>; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:44:33 -0600
    Received: (from mailgate@localhost)by spamraaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.1) id DAA14304for ben@exosphere.net; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:47:39 -0500 (EST)
    Received: from computer (dialup2.intecc.co.uk [193.243.228.102])by spamraaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.1) with SMTP id DAA14199for <ben@exosphere.net>; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:47:20 -0500 (EST)
    Return-path: <support@truehosting.com>
    Sender: support@truehosting.com
    Message-ID: <018d01bf47a1$d01e0bc0$66e4f3c1@computer>
    References: <B0000550485@perious.ddyne.com>
    X-Priority: 3
    X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
    X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
    X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
    -------------------------------------------------------
    We do not want your business.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: <ben@exosphere.net>
    To: <sales@truehosting.com>
    Sent: 16 December 1999 01:40


    > Annette,
    >
    > Never mind about the information that your autoresponder promised me
    several hours ago.* I
    > saw some information about your company on www.technogirl.net that
    indicates you are not a
    > company I would like to do business with.* I have also been unable to find
    any information
    > about Vector Enterprises anywhere, leading me to believe the company does
    not exist. I
    > shall seek my services with Burlee.com,** however, thank you for your
    time.
    >
    > Sincerely,
    > Benjamin Grogan
    >
    >
    > Hello Ben,
    >
    > Vector Enterprises, our parent company, does not currently have an active
    > corporate website.
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Annette Taylor
    > True Hosting
    > Web: http://www.truehosting.com
    > Email: annette@truehosting.com
    > A Vector Enterprises Company
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: Ben Grogan <digityger@hotmail.com>
    > To: <sales@truehosting.com>
    > Sent: 15 December 1999 14:23
    > Subject: Vector Enterprises
    >
    >
    > > True Hosting,
    > >
    > > I was reading with interest your Press Release regarding Vector
    > Enterprises
    > > aquiring your company.* I am certain this will help add even better
    > > reliability and service to your company.
    > >
    > > I do have a couple of questions.* I could not seem to find any
    > information
    > > about Vector Enterprises on your press release.* Would you mind
    > supplying
    > me
    > > with the URL of Vector Enterprises, and perhaps some more information
    > on
    > > them, so I may have a more clear picture of your company before
    > hosting my
    > > site with it?
    > >
    > > Thank you,
    > > Benjamin Grogan


    Any responses appreciated.

    Ben Grogan
    (Digit on alt.www.webmaster)

  14. #39
    Digityger Guest

    Angry

    reply to myself.

    Please note the emai laddy does not work. I had to disable after being spammed with over 10,000 emails form Truehosting. Also note I wa never a customer....

    Ben

  15. #40

    Post

    I won't waste too much time flaming "Davey" here. I just want to post a public note supporting Digityger and Annette. Once upon a time I was a True Hosting customer. The tech support was rarely helpful without repeated badgering. I cancelled after I saw how TH treated others and I have pretty much had the nightmare experience trying to extricate myself from TH that many others have had. Though I cancelled my account on Jan 12, I continue to receive "Domain suspension" notices pretty much every day. I posted my exchanges with "Davey" (a.k.a. Weaselboy) on my website at http://www.rubybeach.com/TrueHosing.html. I guarantee Annette did not fake these up. In my opinion, True Hosting has been trying to commit fraud, and "Davey" is certainly lying about his commitment to customer service.

    [This message has been edited by paulpelton (edited 03-13-2000).]

  16. #41
    Brian Guest

    Post

    Yeah, I used to be a customer of Truehosting too. Whenever I asked for tech supprt, he would reply with F*CK OFF!.

    Then I tried to leave. Whenever I would try to leave he would change the rules on me! I never did get him to confirm I cancelled. I just had to cancell with iBill (Who later cancelled TrueHosting's accounts due to the number of complaints)

  17. #42
    Annette Guest

    Post

    Thanks to Joey for pointing this out in another thread - I've been mistyping the URL to the various stuff regarding True Hosting at my site. The correct URL is http://www.technogirl.net/99tales/weaselboy.htm

    Sorry for the bad link.

  18. #43
    curious Guest

    Post

    I think all the TH posts, complaints, etc are all legitimate. No one person would come up with all this, and its not one person its SEVERAL. What I would like to know though, have ANY of you people contacted Alabanza directly to get feedback from them? I find it very hard (and disturbing) that ALABANZA would tolerate a client like this? It seems to me Alabanza would have "cut him off" a long time ago?

  19. #44
    Ben Grogan Guest

    Post

    I and several others have contacted Alabaza about this. Whereas Eric at Colossus gave him 30 days to get off his severs and thanked us for infoming him; Alabanza said "That's interesting" and ignores the problem.

    iBill even canned him. Go to http://www.truehosting.com/payment/c...ard_single.htm and click Next. It is an usecure, non-checking simple script. No processing. You've just sent your credit card information unsecured over the net.

    (And if he moves this page, I have posted it at www.angrymonkey.org/th/unsecurecreditcard.jpg)

    Ben

  20. #45
    curious Guest

    Post

    I find this REAL disturbing about Alabanza.
    Alabanza has a TOS that all their clients are supposed to POST....I "thought" they had strict rules, OR would at least enforce them.
    To me.....its basically out of TH hands, so to speak, and IN the hands...of whomever LETS THEM continue on.
    Its gives me a very BAD feeling about alabanza, and Ive always held them in such high regard in the hosting business.

  21. #46
    getting_out Guest

    Post

    A reply to Annette...

    Before you go asking Davey of proof that you'd slanderized elsewhere, where is the proof to YOUR claims to back up the slander?

    It's people like Annette that give this industry a bad name.

  22. #47
    Annette Guest

    Post

    getting_out wrote:
    A reply to Annette...
    Before you go asking Davey of proof that you'd slanderized elsewhere, where is the proof to YOUR claims to back up the slander?

    It's people like Annette that give this industry a bad name.
    ------

    What are you talking about? Why is it that some people seem to have inordinate trouble with the definitions of slander and libel? There is no reason for me to endure unfounded attacks on my person.

    I have no idea what you're asking in that question up there. I have libelled no one. Everything that I posted in this thread can be backed up by material at my site. Reasonable people can make their own judgments based on the emails that "Davey" *has written himself*. He has shown the extent of his customer service skills with regard to the claims on his web page in *his own words*.

    He, however, has nothing at all to back up his claims that I have created all of the material at my site (and others) myself and that I have "faked email logs" and that I (among other people) am facing legal action. None of it is true. By deliberately making false claims in this manner, he is engaging in libel.

    As for your last piece: Davey certainly does not seem to need any help from anyone in order to give himself (and, by extension, if you want to take it that far, hosting companies) a bad name. If you displayed this type of attitude toward your customers, you don't need any either.

  23. #48

    Post

    To getting_out:

    Annette's post (the one you're complaining about) had all that proof in it, as well as a link to her website, which has more than enough additional information to support her argument. "Davey" on the other hand, apparently moves from forum to forum, trying to find a friendly audience by spreading lies about other people.

    Regards,
    Paul


  24. #49
    Annette Guest

    Post

    Don't be too harsh on Alabanza. I've had a response from them, which basically said that they can't do anything about one of their clients if that client is an ass (which is true). They are, however, concerned about the legalities of the actions of their clients (such as TH's demanding payment on closed accounts, for instance). This is what I would expect from a company - that they would fully investigate any incidents like this before taking action.

  25. #50
    Cathy Guest

    Exclamation

    Davey,

    What do you say about all this? I find these stories about your company disturbing. Are all these people lying?

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