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  1. #1
    getting_out Guest


    Customers want 'everything' yesterday. And they want it for nothing (or very damn close to nothing). They want replies for "Oh, my web site does work!" within 15 minutes, and they 'think' they're always right, when they're usually far from it.

    Web hosting has turned into the sick joke of the Internet, it's become a sad commodity.

    80% of web hosting customers are impatient, unobtrusively rude, cheap, and are the TRUE scam artists of the industry. Every web host I've been in contact with experiences chargebacks with 30-60% of their sign-ups, even after they've provided the service for months! Why should they waste the effort and hard drive space with a idiot for a customer that is only in it for a free ride?

    There's no loyalty, decent services are getting slandered in message boards just like this one everyday, and there's no real money to be made for anyone.

    I am sick of it, and I am sure many people who work at a Web Hosting company (or run one) feel the same.

    Sianara web hosting, may you rest in peace.

  2. #2
    Anyone Guest


    Anyone agree?

  3. #3
    Excuses Excuses Guest


    The problem as I have seen it so far isn't hosting customers expecting too much. It's hosting customers expecting what they were promised with the sales talk on the hosts site.
    You get what you pay for is a ridiculous saying. Clients should be getting what they were told they would be getting or it is false advertising. I have heard more excuses from various hosting companies than I have heard from any other type of business in my life. If you can't deliver then don't promise to. If you promise to deliver then quit the excuses and do what it takes to be the top hosting company and make every single client happy. Quit your pissin and moaning and go write a helpful response to one of your existing clients or go fix the mail server problem or go make a faq page on how to get and use ftp or include on your homepage what you will do for the money and what you won't do for the money you are taking from your clients. I am so tired of trying to find a host that people aren't complaining about that I'm almost ready to buy my own servers and start hosting. If what I have seen so far would be my competition all I have to do is deliver on my promises and I'd be the most popular host around. All businesses have problems. The smart business owners research ahead of time and avoid problem situations instead of wasting time and resources putting out fires while losing clients and getting a bad rep.

  4. #4
    ag Guest


    I couldn't disagree more. We host about 5500 sites and I have to say that the majority of our customers are knowledgeable, courteous and incredible to work with. However, there are also the rude, obnoxious people but that is what it is like in the real world as well - it's not as though people automatically change their personalities when they get on the web.

    The frustrating thing for web hosts is when customers who may be wrong from our point of view vent on public forums (please note I stress OUR point of view). There really is no protection for us. We have two complaints against our company on this site and we are a prefered host. One of the customers did indeed get the money back and wanted a host who could walk her through absolutely everything including how to download her FTP client. We deal with advanced developers and don't have the support mechanisms in place to help someone who is starting from scratch. We suggested that and she took total offense. She complains that the president treated her rudely and I can tell her she never talked to the president because I am the president and I am definitely not a woman Another complaint is from someone that actually has their fact wrong - our support people are here 24x7 answering email and provding telephone support through 7pm EST. I can feel the initial posters pain in cases like this. However, we as web hosts have to realize that even if we disagree with the customers point of view, we have still alienated that person for whatever reason and that is a shame. Do I disagree with the posts? Of course? Were the people unhappy? Obviously, because we could not meet their needs and when you can't meet a customer's needs and they leave that is one less opportunity to really see a possible great business idea blossom into a reality.

    Are we perfect as a web host? Hell no! This industry is growing too quickly to keep up at the pace I would like to. I don't know any web host who is perfect. Do we try to be as good as possible? Of course. Can we satisfy everyone? No way. Do things slip through the cracks. Of course, although we attempt to minimize the slipages as much as possible.

    Now flip that. Is every customer perfect? Hell no! Are most customers good people and enjoyable to work with? Damn right!

    I think the good far outwieghs the bad and I am sorry the person who started this is getting out. This is a great industry and I really feel that working with good customers who are growing pretty incredible businesses is incredibly exciting and I can't image anything else I would rather be doing. Are there the frustrating days where we screw something up or a customer is a complete ass? You can bet there are but luckily those days are few and far between (at least I like to lead myself to believe they are Anyway, take this for what its worth.

    Alex Gadea
    Virtualscape, Inc.

  5. #5
    Anyone Guest


    Thank You.....

  6. #6
    Hey Guest


    Sounds like a frustrated reseller who thought he'd make a quick buck.
    Probably lied to his clients about being a reseller, too. And now he's going to leave both of them in the lurch!

  7. #7
    Matty Guest


    30-60% chargebacks is a lot. Can anyone else verify this figure or share their experiences on web hosting chargebacks?

  8. #8
    AG Guest


    Chargebacks are really proprietary information, but for a well run host they should not be more than 1-2%.

  9. #9
    getting_out Guest


    In reply to AG... great advertisement!

    As for the figure on the %30-60 of chargebacks, thats based on 7 different non-reseller web hosts experiences (who will remain nameless).

    Oh, and just so you know, Safeway is a reseller. This is exactly my point, as soon as the word 'reseller' gets into the mix people run for the hills. Where is the loyalty in that? It doesn't matter if the reseller provides a valueable service, they're still a reseller!

    I encourage anonymous comments from people who aren't looking to increase sales.

  10. #10
    getting_out Guest


    I just want to comment on the supply and demand issue that the Web Hosting industry is experiencing as well.

    If you check the other discussions on this message board, many of them are looking for 'Unlimited Web Space, Bandwidth, E-mail Accounts, Hours on the phone with a tech support, and house/home to boot'.

    The consumer demand is for UNLIMITED everything and supply has unsucessfully tried to compensate, then has gotten burned in the process.

    The real problem here is the uneducated consumer, who has no realization of limits to hard drives, bandwidth, server load and hours in the day!

    The demand outweights the supply, and when the supply offers what it's able, it looses business.

  11. #11
    Guest Guest


    Well I agree with alot of what getting_out has said. Being a Reseller Host myself, I can attest to the fact that it's a maddening business. I only have 57 clients but I take care of 99.9% of their support needs myself. AND I do it in a prompt manner. I very rarely contact my provider unless it is something on the server end that is beyond my realm. Thankfully my provider is a great one and the times I've needed assistance they have been there. Considering they host over 80,000 domains that is saying a lot.
    What people don't understand is that many new customers expect their hosts to be their webmasters. They think that just by having an account the host is then responsible for every minor detail in the development of their site. I have a client that will just NOT read the manual or the FAQ's or even at least try to get a form to work. Instead she "expects" me to personally do it for her for FREE. She's nice in the requesting phase but when the work is done I start getting snotty emails because she doesn't like the font I used. Stupid crap like that. I'm sorry but customers or not these people can be really lazy and unappreciative. Am I ever rude? No. Do I ever ignore or refuse? No. I'm just not that way. I'm sure all hosts have a good majority of whiners they have to pacify daily. And while we're playing nursemaid to one, our support email keeps rolling in regardless. Sometimes when a problematic customer is causing a strain on my MENTAL BANDWIDTH, constantly challenging his monthly bill, calling my 800 line and keeping me on the line for HOURS knowing he's racking up a nice bill for me to eat and so forth and so on, there comes a time when you just have to nicely cut him loose and say "It does not appear that we are providing the services you require. It may be best for you to seek another provider who is able to serve your needs more effieciently."
    You CAN'T please everyone. You can give 100% and more, deliver on 100% of advertised services, bend over backwards and lose money trying to be everything the customer needs but there are still those who want more.
    I don't make a habit commenting in these forums. I basically just read and go on. But as I have said before in one forum or you expect the guy at the dealership where you bought your car to teach you how to drive it? Change the oil in it? Tune it up? Then why on earth expect your host to teach you how to run your website?

    Just my thoughts...I am shutting up now. Thanks for bringing up the subject getting_out...I think I needed to get that off my chest :-)

  12. #12
    Guest Guest


    Oh and BTW...People have a real nerve putting down resellers....I would venture a guess that most of us work around the clock sitting in front of our monitors. We miss our kids ballgames when a support call comes through, If we get 8 hours sleep in a week we are doing good and many of us just plainly bust our asses to provide excellent services to our customers. So before any of you holier than thou reseller haters bash one of us "despicable" resellers simply because we ARE resellers maybe you should think twice about it before you brand us all with one fell swoop.

  13. #13
    AG Guest


    Getting out - Someone asked for the chargeback level so I gave it. Not trying to advertise. Frankly, I know four other companies that have a third what ours are and one host that has 10,000+ customers with a chargeback level of .5% (I'd love to have that). We are in a special circumstance in that we do not cater to beginner level customers. Most of our chargebacks come from the entry-level customers who don't get the attention they are looking for from us since we are focused on the part of the market that is experienced database developers. I can't imagine surviving on a 30-60% chargeback rate and I can understand your frustration if that is where you are. For those who don't know, you not only get hit with the chargeback but you often get hit with a $25 charge on top of it. In my opinion, it is extremely difficult to survive in any small business if your chargeback rate is over 10%. Larger businesses can get away with more. Something for customers to think about who bounce from web host to web host - if you are just doing it for the free ride (not that everyone is), you often cost the web host more than just the money you paid. As for advertising - I have been on these forums for a long time, with many opportunities to advertise and I have not. I was giving my unadulterated view - someone asked a legitimate question and I gave a legitimate answer. I apologize if you thought I was in it for the advertising. One of my main concerns with the hosting industry is that there really are no places for hosts to really discuss their concerns and trade business practices. Of course, we are all competitors, but it is interesting what you can learn from others who are in the same boat.

    I also agree with you about the uneducated consumer. Some people expect things to be absolutely automatic and have no concept of what actually is going on behind the scenes. I can't tell you the number of arguments we've had from customers who balk when their site is getting 20GB of traffic per month and we explain our excess bandwidth fees (we limit it to 3GB per month) and they threaten to go elsewhere so they can get the "unlimited" options. Have you ever considered qualifying your sales leads? You don't have to take every customer who comes through the door.

    As for the reseller question, anyone who disparages ALL resellers is not understanding the WHOLE picture. There are shoddy resellers just as there are shoddy hosts who have their own NOCs. Frankly, the reseller is the lifeblood of the hosting industry for larger hosts. There is no way a mid to large sized host (my definition is 5000+ accounts) can pay attention to a customer the way that a reseller with fewer accounts can. Very often the reseller is 1-5 people who can provide the hands on attention a larger host can not do. The hosting business is an extremely touchy-feely type of business at the entry-mid level. A customer wants someone on the telephone who can sit there and spend 30 minutes helping them figure out how to configure Eudora. If a larger host was spending 30 minutes with even 15% of their customers they would have troubles surviving. On the other hand, the smaller host will have trouble surviving if they DO NOT spend that time with the customer. I can tell you that although we do our best to provide quality support, there is no way our support is as good as it was when we were 5 people sitting in a room together answering all calls that came through. Once you get into the 15-20 customer support rep range everything changes in terms of support. It is a whole new ballgame with a whole new set of challenges. So, if you are looking for close ties with your web host and need a lot of hand holding, there is nobody better equiped to do it than a reseller. Again though, it is up to the customer to do their research. There are some incredibly wonderful resellers out there and there are those to steer clear of. Also, what do you want? Do you feel more comfortable with a small host that is reselling services and can give you personalized attention? If yes, then a good reseller is the way to go.

  14. #14
    Davey Guest


    I started out in web hosting after seeing so many hosts that just did not help customers at all (never replied to support questions, etc). It is true that the industry is still very, very bad in terms of its reputation. There are SO many scams or just plain bad hosts now that signing up with a company is a big gamble. Even some of the larger hosts such as ***** and do not have what you might consider to be "great" customer service.
    I now host over 1600 domains, and this is growing by 10 a day (this is with zero advertising effort or budget). The profit being made from it is phenomenal, and I've recently invested in upgrading servers, moving to Alabanza's network. They are VERY good, and have greatly improved all my customers` experiences. I'm not what you might call a "large" host, by far, but at this rate it I will be before long

    I don't want to boast, but if one single guy can build up that customer base in around 8 months, with no advertising budget, in his spare time, then it shows that a lot of companies must be doing something very wrong.
    No host can please anyone; there are always a few that will grumble. But if you look at what ***** mess up with, surely anyone can do better than that.

    The web hosting business can be highly profitable and in my opinion is one of the most exciting and fun industries to be working in.

    Those hosts who grumble really don't have a clue. Just provide good servers (hint: Alabanza!) and take the time to answer customers emails, and you cannot lose.

  15. #15
    Guest Guest


    Dear Getting_Out,
    Perhaps you could "team-up" with another reseller and pool your talents and services? Just a thought

  16. #16
    Getting Ready..... Guest


    Davey, what is your companies URL?

  17. #17
    Davey Guest

  18. #18
    ROFL Guest

    Thumbs down


    I think I've read more complaints about your company than any other. Sure every hosting company has problems, but the excessive amounts of complaints about TH takes the p*ss in my opinion.

  19. #19
    Stopped ROFL Guest


    If this is reformed TrueHosting then good luck... otherwise ......

  20. #20
    Davey Guest



    Those "complaints" are the work of one individual, Annette Howard. She has way too much time on her hands, so has faked email logs, and used many different aliases.

    As with all fraudsters, our company is not the only one she has targetted. She'll get a very long jail sentence at the end of it for her fraud.

  21. #21
    Stopped ROFL Guest


    Okay Davey,

    I might sign up one day and see how it goes.

  22. #22
    Davey Guest


    Great, I look forward to hearing from you. If you want to email me ([email protected]) then I can give you free setup.

    Anyone else in this forum is also welcome to this offer

  23. #23
    ForDavey Guest


    unfortunately in this case you may be trying to point the finger at ONE person, but any avid surfer that keeps up with any sort of hosting news can certainly say theyve seen the share of horror stories! And though you seem to point to one person for all this, I think the reality IS THIS...all those people would not just make stories up about ANY host FOR NO REASON! Why? what is to gain by doing it? Nothing, is the answer! You are on the alabanza network? they have tos YOU have to follow in order to have your servers there? I am really beginning to ? the way alabanza is doing business!
    They are and have been well known in the host biz for some time now but i also know they have terms that you have to follow?? Do they no longer care as long as you pay your server bill. For what its worth....Ive written Truhosting, on more than one occasion, and never got a response back at all.
    If a host cannot answer ONE email in a timely fashion...well forget it!

  24. #24
    will not play the ad game Guest


    I will leave names out of it and while I think the stress level can be high at times for the most part a well rounded business should not have any troubles.

    I also wish to point out that people are quick to do chargebacks and cancel accounts mainly because of the kind of hosting companies that are out there.

    This will not change at all because it too easy for people to just "start" a hosting company.

  25. #25
    Web Host Owner Guest


    I've read this thread with interest, because I too once felt the way Getting_Out feels. I felt that many customers were greedy, unappreciative deadbeats. Not that I'd ever let it show, or treat my customers with anything but the biggest fake smile on my face, but inside I was screaming to get out of this business just as Getting_Out is doing now.

    It took a major revelation to realize that I was dead wrong. Dead Wrong. I admit, while you'll always find people out for a free ride, the *vast* majority of customers are simply ordinary people, just like you and me, who have expectations for what they should be receiving for the money they are paying.

    I had the wonderful good fortune to stumble across a wonderful book called "A Complaint is a Gift". It's available from at This book really single-handedly turned my beliefs about customers upside down, and made me realize that not all customers are out for a free ride, not all customers are greedy and unappreciative.

    And it helped me to realize that you don't need to work any harder to keep your customers happy - you just need to work a little bit smarter.

    Back when I felt the way Getting_Out does, if a customer sent me a complaint I'd basically ignore it - after all, I knew we never made mistakes and therefore the customer must have had unrealistic expectations, so it wasn't worth even responding to the letter.

    Boy... hard to imagine just how wrong I was about that. Rule number one for any business needs to be:

    - The customer is always right, even when they're mindbogglingly wrong.

    And of course, Rule number two should always be:

    - If ever a situation presents itself where the customer *isn't* right, re-read Rule #1.

    It's basic good business. Just because we're in an industry where you probably will never see your customer, and very well might never even speak with them on the phone, doesn't mean that you can throw basic business basics out the window. In fact, you need to be even more aware of business basics in this type of industry, because it's all too easy to ignore your customer's feelings and concerns.

    Oh - one other important thing to remember. On average, only 1 out of every 27 pissed off customers will actually complain to you. But you can guarantee that all 27 will complain to their friends, collegues, people at the bus stop, the guy behind them in line at the bank, etc. For every complaint you receive, you are probably losing 200 potential customers when you factor in the number of upset people who don't complain.

    Go ahead and read that book. Hell - I bought a copy for every single person on my staff and made it mandatory reading. That way, next time you and your staff will know what to do when they get presented with the most wonderful of gifts: a complaint.

    For obvious reasons I won't sign this e-mail (wouldn't want my long-term customers knowing what I used to feel about them, now would I?)

    Good luck.

  26. #26
    Duster Guest


    With that kind of attitude, getting Out <b>should get out</b>. There are plenty of hosting comaponies with a bad attitude as it is. One lless is a step in the right direction. That high a level of chargebacks indicated a huge amount of customer dissatisfaction, and it's not hard to see why. The attitude says much.

    The reason many people look for unlimited resources is <b>because many hosting companies lied to them and advertised unlimited bandwidth, unlimited hits, unlimited this and that.</b> A site administrator almost has to have a bad experience with a host, having a site shut down, cgi disables, extrta charges on the credit card, before being told by the host "we said unlimited but we didn't really mean unlimited". In other words, they deliberately lied to get your business and had no intentions of honoring their contract.
    Stop lying to people and you won't find as many asking about unlimited resources. All you hosts that carte more about attracting new customers and don't take care of the ones you already have deserve what you get, aloss of clients and word sprteading about your lack of service and honoring your claims.

    To Alex, the best defense is to take good care of yourcustomers and don't make false claims. You'll likely find them rising to your defense when they read soemthing derogatory posted that doesn't fit in with their experiences. I've seen it happen elsewhere. Also, most reasonable people know that any businesse will have a few complaints simply because some customers make outrageous demands and can't (and shouldn't) be accommodated. Many of us want to know particulars. When the irate customer posts them, "they wouldn't help at all with creating my site" reasonable people will laugh at their stupidity in complaining and tell them to do their own work

    It can helop to spell out exactly waht you do and don't do and refer such customers to that page, even make it part of what they ahve to acknowledge in order to open an account.

  27. #27
    Duster Guest


    With that kind of attitude, getting Out <b>should get out</b>. There are plenty of hosting comaponies with a bad attitude as it is. One lless is a step in the right direction. That high a level of chargebacks indicated a huge amount of customer dissatisfaction, and it's not hard to see why. The attitude says much.

    The reason many people look for unlimited resources is <b>because many hosting companies lied to them and advertised unlimited bandwidth, unlimited hits, unlimited this and that.</b> A site administrator almost has to have a bad experience with a host, having a site shut down, cgi disables, extrta charges on the credit card, before being told by the host "we said unlimited but we didn't really mean unlimited". In other words, they deliberately lied to get your business and had no intentions of honoring their contract.
    Stop lying to people and you won't find as many asking about unlimited resources. All you hosts that carte more about attracting new customers and don't take care of the ones you already have deserve what you get, aloss of clients and word sprteading about your lack of service and honoring your claims.

    To Alex, the best defense is to take good care of yourcustomers and don't make false claims. You'll likely find them rising to your defense when they read soemthing derogatory posted that doesn't fit in with their experiences. I've seen it happen elsewhere. Also, most reasonable people know that any businesse will have a few complaints simply because some customers make outrageous demands and can't (and shouldn't) be accommodated. Many of us want to know particulars. When the irate customer posts them, "they wouldn't help at all with creating my site" reasonable people will laugh at their stupidity in complaining and tell them to do their own work

    It can help to spell out exactly waht you do and don't do and refer such customers to that page, even make it part of what they ahve to acknowledge in order to open an account.

  28. #28
    getting_out Guest


    I appreciate AG, Guest#1 and Web Host Owner's honest comments. I think they are valuable to customers who just 'dont get it', which is unfourtunately a majority of them.

    However, I am disturbed by the backlash to Davey's comments. Whether Truehosting offers a valueable service or not, negative comments that are unfounded (without evidence) should not be tolerated.

    ROFL et al should learn they're lesson quick, or be sure to stay anonymous.

    The covert-slander leaves Web Hosts of all kinds completely defenseless. In my experiences, web sites like this one frequently do not cooperate with attempts by Web Hosts to remove slander (most notably, HostSearch). It's unfourtunate that we will need to wait for the underdeveloped internet slander laws to catch-up before it will end.

    As for the notion that I was just one of those in it for the 'free ride' or just 'doing it for some extra cash'. Im afraid your mistaken. I've been in the web hosting business for more than 4 years. I know I must sound very pessimistic, but it's difficult to watch an idustry you've been avidly a part of just flop in a matter of a year or so. Oh, and I was not a reseller, atleast not of the server hardware. All web hosts are resellers of something or other (at the very least of bandwidth).

    It's about time Web Hosts got a chance to complain! Customers suck!

    I agree that the problems web hosting companies are experiencing are often mutually caused by company and consumer. In no way am I trying to put the blame on the consumer (atleast not entirely)... but I am just tired of it and I think I'll leave it to people who are still excited about it's prospects.

    Good luck to Virtualscape, Truehosting and the like. And a word of advice to consumers:

    "Not all web hosts are alike, so do not treat them so."


    "Don't threaten to sick your lawyer on a web host unless you ACTUALLY plan to do so. It can get you into some hot water and most web hosts are experienced enough to know it's 'bull'."


  29. #29
    To Web Host Owner Post Guest


    I can't believe it! A host owner with a brain and a bank account instead of just a bank account.

    Web Host Owner (previous post)
    If you host both UNIX and NT kindly send me your hosting site URL.

    Thank You
    mailto:[email protected]

  30. #30
    Duster Guest


    To getting out, good riddance. Your attitude says everything important about you. It explains your enormously high level of chargebacks. No wonder you are so unhappy about customers, you have a lot of former ones that were very unhappy with you.

    To Web Host Owner, you're wrong. The customer is not always right and should always be treated with respect, but not as if anything he or she says is right. Treat them fairly and honestly and most will respect you for it. For the ones that don't, just remember that there are few, if any, absolutes in life so you can't please everybody. If they leave you, they may experience the awful service elsewhere and get what they deserve. Meanwhile, your satisfied customers will recommend others to you.

    To all hosts who really care about doing better:

    1. Don't make false claims, like unlimited anything unless it truly is. Instead, advertise reasonable amounts of resources AND explain why they can't be unlimited. Without mentioning names, you can even explain what happens at many other hosting companies when customers hit the limit on "unlimited" resources, how their accoutns are disabled, additonal charges are incurred, etc. Be up front and honest and you will find many customers who appreciate it. That may be a deciding factor for many, especially if all they see is "unlimited" elsewhere.

    2. Have a definite plan for those customers who do exceed their allocation. It can be an upgrade in space and bandwidth, perhaps on a package or block deal, moving to a server with less domains on it, or even a recommendation of a dedicated server. The better prepared you are, the more confidence you will instill in customers.

    3. You don't stand out from the crowd by being a follower. If you copy what others offer, and advertise as they do (unlimited this, unlimited that), then you are no different than any other hosting company. Instead, if you THINK about EVERY statement you make, make it truthful, tell people the reasons for things (treat them like the intelligent people many are), and put it in terms beginners understand, AND back it up with an attitude that PROVES you care about existing customers (remember, actions talk louder than words), you may be surprised at the volume of business you get and keep. It can be a tiresome thing to move from one host to another and many of us do it only becasue we ar eso dissatisfied with the hosts we have. Finding a reliable one that honors its contract can be a welcome relief.

    It won't matter if they are resellers or not, superior service will yield superior results. If you have a lousy attitude, are fraudulent, and don't treat your cusatomers well, save your whining. You deserve whatever happens to you, like customers leaving. Ask yourselves, would you want to deal with any business that treated YOU like you treat others, lying to them, not delivering on what you contracted for, abusing them, overcharging them, and ignoring their problems? No reasonable person would. Why would you expect us to?

  31. #31
    Web Host Owner Guest



    No, I am not wrong. I agree that no company can please every customer, nor can every company provide everything that a customer might ask for. Saying that the customer is always right does not mean that you as a company must always bow to their demands - if they're demanding something you simply can't provide, then you can't provide it. That's pretty simple.

    But the customer *is* always right. If they tell you that they need 10 GB of disk space for their hard drive, then they are right - they need it (even if their site is only really using 20 MB or so). You can try to educate them on what they do and don't need -but the end result is if they think they need 10 GB, then they are right - the customer is always right. That doesn't mean you have to give them 10 GB - I tell customers that my company can't meet their needs 2 or 3 times a day, it's not unusual. But I don't ever, ever, ever tell them they're wrong - because they're not, they're always right!

    The customer is *always* right, even when they're wrong. We might not be able to provide every customer with everything they want, and in those situations we will do our best to help them find someone who can provide what they want - but just because we can't do it doesn't mean the customer is wrong.

    The "customer is always right" philosophy does not mean that you as a business must always give in to a customer. If a customer on a $30 a month plan calls up and says they're only going to pay $10 a month because they don't think your prices are good, then they're right. They're only going to pay $10 per month. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to give them a $30 account for $10 - it means that I'll offer to downgrade their account to a $10 account we might offer, or I"ll offer to help them find a web host that offers what they need for $10 a month.

    The customer is always right. We as a company can't always fulfill the customer's right-ness (though we do try when we can), but we always acknowledge the fact that they are right and try to find ways (even if it's referring them to a competitor) to make their needs a reality.

    The customer is *always* right. No exceptions.

  32. #32
    Duster Guest


    Web Host Owner,

    You're using semantics now and attempting to redefine the customer is always right, just like Clinton tried to redefine sex. It won't work.

    "The customer is *always* right, even when they're wrong."

    That's a politician's answer, an attempt not to take a stand either way.

    "The "customer is always right" philosophy does not mean that you as a business must always give in to a customer."

    But that's how many people would interpret it.

    Guest's customer that thought web design and being a webmaster should be included in the web hosting package wasn't right in expecting it, no matter how much she might like it to be.

    I repeat, you treat all customers fairly and with respect, can acknowledge that they feel their wishes are valid, but not that they are always right. You create your own problems when you treat them as if they can do no wrong. As a reasonable customer mysaelf, I would expect no more and no less.

  33. #33
    Duster, take a breather Guest


    Duster, You are missing the point.
    Whether the customer is "in fact" wrong or not doesn't matter (and in most cases is subject to your "objective" misinterpretation).

    For one reason or another that customer feels like they are not being taken care of correctly and that is the businesses fault...regardless.

    What is more important.

    You not being able to suck in your ego to find a way to make the "wrong" customer happy and have them get you 100 more accounts or you trying to persistently prove that you are right and have the customer complain to 1000 people about your lousy service and lack of intelligence.

    Yea, you were right, you proved you were right, that customer is an idiot.

    In the meantime Web Host is getting the 100 clients that you could have had while people like me are posting how lousy you are to the world.

    Yup, that customer sure is a moron.

  34. #34
    Duster Guest



    We probably agree more than disagree on how to treat people. However, your vague, ambiguous, and even contradictory statements "the customer is alwaays right, even when they are wrong" send the wrong message. Politicians give such answers all the time.

    There is nothing wrong about making mistakes and being wrong. We all make them and can learn from them. Problems artise when you think you can do no wrong, or treat customers as if they can't. That doesn't mean you have to belittle them or invalidate their opinion.

    Read what I said about treating customers with respect. Judging from your remarks, you obviously lack the ability to accommodate customers or explain why you can't AND retain their respect and business. A true professional can do all of those things and be thanked for it by their customers. Those in the mediocre majority often resort to being sycophantic in order to get the customers' money. We all operate at the level we can handle. It's not a question of ego, it's a matter of ability, finesse, and a certain aplomb that relatively few people in any business possess.

    I've said all I care to on the subject.

  35. #35
    ATTN Davey Guest


    imagine my surprise to see Davey/Peter Francis-Macrae/David Jarvis/ or whatever you're calling yourself these days *still* trying to propagate the same lies as you always have.

    For anyone else interested in the "true" True Hosting, take a look at my site

    For the record:
    None of the items on my site are faked. Complete headers are available, and I've even emailed back and forth with DJ/PFM/et al numerous times and included headers so that he would realize that he can't hide anything - certainly not the fact that he used several different names to respond to email, and that many of those replies came from the same computer.

    I am not now, nor will I ever be, the subject of legal action from this jerk. He has yet to provide any information on pending suits against myself or anyone else (some dating back from May and June of 1999). Research done for me by various individuals reveals NO suits filed under ANY of the names that this guy has used, or under True Hosting or the other company he claimed to be associated with, Vector Enterprises (which, BTW, does not exist). The direct link to all the legal threats he has made is
    so you can judge for yourself just how honest a character this guy is.

    Some people have posted their exchanges to THEIR OWN sites. How he imagines I could fake this is beyond me.

    Check with Netcheck at for their evaluation of this guy as a company. Check at my site for his claims of suing THEM if they continue to send him email asking him to respond to complaints.

    Check this very site, in fact, for messages regarding this guy.

    Check deja for True Hosting and you'll find that complaints regarding this guy started long before I entered the fray.

    This guy continues to harass people for payment on accounts that are closed. Itis fraudulent to do so on accounts that are closed. Numerous people have received emails with "payment due" notices, myself included.

    He has claimed to one individual at that IBill is a reseller for True Hosting, and that that individual would have to contact IBill to cancel an account (a total lie, as he is just irritated that IBill canned him due to compaints), and then turned around and claimed that a fax to *him* was required. Can't have it both ways.

    The problem with you, Davey, is that you have absolutely NO evidence to back up any claim you've made. Everyone with a gripe against you, however, can certainly point to all kinds of evidence to show you for what you are. It is readily apparent to people with half a brain that True Hosting is bad news.

    Be aware that your postings to this board have been collected, since you continue to claim, without evidence, that I have conjured out of thin air all of the complaints against you. Since you seem to have such a hard time with definitions, let me remind you again that you are engaging in libel. Either provide the evidence for your claim or withdraw it.

    And let me finish this by pointing out to people that this guy contacted me the other day claiming to be "Paul Jarvis". You can read his email to me at my site, on the message board.

    I welcome anyone's inquiries as to the nature of this whole fiasco. If anyone has any doubts whatsoever about the veracity of my claims, and that of others, please let me know.

    [email protected]

  36. #36
    Annette Guest


    A quick reply to my own reply: I note that Davey has also claimed that I have targetted other web hosting companies in the same way I have complained about his "service". This is completely untrue, and again, I would like him to provide any evidence that it is, or withdraw the claim.

    As for your "upgrading" to Alabanza: Eric at Colossus could certainly tell anyone that you were forced to remove yourself from Colossus' servers. This was entirely apparent for the (almost) week that TH and all hosted sites were down after the cutoff date. Many people can confirm this statement.

    Another for the record: I moved from TrueHosting to ValueWeb, and couldn't be pleased more. I think they are light years ahead of TH's one man operation.

    [email protected]

  37. #37
    Guest Guest


    See this page for the NetCheck evaluation of TrueHosting:

  38. #38
    Digityger Guest


    My name is Ben Grogan, and not only am I one of the main posters in alt.ww.webmaster (I am the author of the FAQ) but I am also a columnist on

    Any of you who would like to see the sterling customer service offered as _late as last week_ should come to alt.www.webmaster and post a message asking what they think of True Hosting. After you have received (literally) hundreds of replies, I would like to see "Davey" (Peter Francis-Macrae) say all these people are Annette Howard. I have emailed Mr. Macrae Myself, headers attached....

    From: "True Hosting" <[email protected]> Save Address - Block Sender
    To: <[email protected]> Save Address
    Subject: Re:
    Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:30:25 -0000
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Received: from ( []) by (Rockliffe SMTPRA 3.4.2) with SMTP id <[email protected]> for <[email protected]>; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:44:33 -0600
    Received: (from [email protected])by (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.1) id DAA14304for [email protected]; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:47:39 -0500 (EST)
    Received: from computer ( [])by (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-REL-1.1) with SMTP id DAA14199for <[email protected]>; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:47:20 -0500 (EST)
    Return-path: <[email protected]>
    Sender: [email protected]
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    X-Priority: 3
    X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
    X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
    X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
    We do not want your business.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: <[email protected]>
    To: <[email protected]>
    Sent: 16 December 1999 01:40

    > Annette,
    > Never mind about the information that your autoresponder promised me
    several hours ago.* I
    > saw some information about your company on that
    indicates you are not a
    > company I would like to do business with.* I have also been unable to find
    any information
    > about Vector Enterprises anywhere, leading me to believe the company does
    not exist. I
    > shall seek my services with,** however, thank you for your
    > Sincerely,
    > Benjamin Grogan
    > Hello Ben,
    > Vector Enterprises, our parent company, does not currently have an active
    > corporate website.
    > Thanks,
    > Annette Taylor
    > True Hosting
    > Web:
    > Email: [email protected]
    > A Vector Enterprises Company
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: Ben Grogan <[email protected]>
    > To: <[email protected]>
    > Sent: 15 December 1999 14:23
    > Subject: Vector Enterprises
    > > True Hosting,
    > >
    > > I was reading with interest your Press Release regarding Vector
    > Enterprises
    > > aquiring your company.* I am certain this will help add even better
    > > reliability and service to your company.
    > >
    > > I do have a couple of questions.* I could not seem to find any
    > information
    > > about Vector Enterprises on your press release.* Would you mind
    > supplying
    > me
    > > with the URL of Vector Enterprises, and perhaps some more information
    > on
    > > them, so I may have a more clear picture of your company before
    > hosting my
    > > site with it?
    > >
    > > Thank you,
    > > Benjamin Grogan

    Any responses appreciated.

    Ben Grogan
    (Digit on alt.www.webmaster)

  39. #39
    Digityger Guest


    reply to myself.

    Please note the emai laddy does not work. I had to disable after being spammed with over 10,000 emails form Truehosting. Also note I wa never a customer....


  40. #40


    I won't waste too much time flaming "Davey" here. I just want to post a public note supporting Digityger and Annette. Once upon a time I was a True Hosting customer. The tech support was rarely helpful without repeated badgering. I cancelled after I saw how TH treated others and I have pretty much had the nightmare experience trying to extricate myself from TH that many others have had. Though I cancelled my account on Jan 12, I continue to receive "Domain suspension" notices pretty much every day. I posted my exchanges with "Davey" (a.k.a. Weaselboy) on my website at I guarantee Annette did not fake these up. In my opinion, True Hosting has been trying to commit fraud, and "Davey" is certainly lying about his commitment to customer service.

    [This message has been edited by paulpelton (edited 03-13-2000).]

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