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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    11,059

    When will I learn?? GET PAID UP FRONT!!

    I feel uncomfortable making this post, but I have been cheated and think it is an appropriate post.

    On Nov 14 I got a call from a customer who had already purchased tutorials from me. In the original order, he wanted to pay by check, so he overnighted payment to me. Great, everyone was happy. When he called on Nov 14 he wanted more tutorials (Ensim). He explained that he wanted to get his site designer to incorporate them into his site that day, so he asked to get the product first, then send in a check by regular mail. Well, being the nice guy (fool), I fell for it. I gave him product. In the next couple of weeks, I sent him a few emails reminding him of the $89.95 he owed me, no answer. On Dec 2, I called him. He admitted he never sent the payment, and asked me to provide him with an invoice and he would overnight it. I emailed as well as faxed him an invoice. I received nothing in the mail. For the last week I have emailed him with no reply. When I try to call, it says voice mail is unavailable.

    What really burns me is that hours after my conversation with him on Dec 2nd, he posted a thread here http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...threadid=93317 promoting his new site design. So he's got funds to pay (presumably) for a new site design, but refuses to pay a $90 bill for product received? Defies logic. I see in his Support section he's got the Ensim tutorials nicely displayed.

    I sent him an email and a PM yesterday telling him that he had until today to make good on his debt, else I would post this incident publically. Obviously, since you're reading this, you know what decision he made.

    I even went to the extent of trying to figure out if I'm making unfair presumptions. Maybe he got sick or something happened right after I spoke with him that would have prevented him from sending payment as promised. But I couldn't reconcile that possibility. After all, several hours after our phone call he had the presence of mind to create a new thread promoting his new site design.

    Again, this post makes me feel very awkward. I really do hate airing dirty laundry in public. But perhaps if any of you are considering buying a hosting plan from him, perhaps I owe you a heads up on how this fellow conducts business.

    Now if Mr. Upton decides to reply to this thread and provides a reasonable explanation for his disappearing act, I will humbly apologize (after payment is received) and move on. But somehow, almost a full month later and no hint of a payment forthcoming - I think I am spot-on.

    Lesson learned: Set a payment policy for your business - and DO NOT DEVIATE from it for ANYONE.

    Vito
    DemoDemo.com - Flash tutorials since 2002
    DemoWolf.com - 5,300+ Flash tutorials for hosting companies, incl. Voice tutorials

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
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    Orlando, FL
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    I agree Vito and sorry to hear about your experience.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Illinois, USA
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    Lesson learned: Set a payment policy for your business - and DO NOT DEVIATE from it for ANYONE
    great suggestion

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    3,100
    Contact his host/reseller/dedicated server provided and tell them hosting content with no permission

  5. #5
    Greetings:

    If this is a "lessons learned" area <smile>, then

    * Don't personally loan money to employees.

    * Don't have the company loan money to employees.

    * Don't believe you are protected because of a promissory note.

    Thank you.
    ---
    Peter M. Abraham
    LinkedIn Profile

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    1,953
    try contacting the person hosting with, ie datacenter or if hes reselling, the comany, then tell them he is displaying illegal copys of ur stuff
    Chicago Electronic Cigarettes: Tobacco Free, Smoke Free. 3 E-Cig Models, 11 flavors, and accessories.
    http://www.chicago-ecigs.com

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
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    11,059
    You know, this makes me more disappointed than angry. Sometimes I'm just amazed at what dollar figure some people are prepared to compromise their integrity and name.

    Off to pick up my 8 year old daughter at school. Will chime in later...

    Vito
    DemoDemo.com - Flash tutorials since 2002
    DemoWolf.com - 5,300+ Flash tutorials for hosting companies, incl. Voice tutorials

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,262
    This is another sorry tale and makes conducting business in this forum even more difficult. As a supplier you don't want to get burned by not getting paid - as a customer you don't want to pay and not receive.
    Tonight I felt peeved at someone asking me for a deposit for work he has just started for me, especially as I had a problem with some templates recently - I guess this shows me the other side and a deposit has been sent.
    Maybe asking for a deposit is a good policy - I hope you get paid Vito.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    3,100
    Originally posted by davidb
    try contacting the person hosting with, ie datacenter or if hes reselling, the comany, then tell them he is displaying illegal copys of ur stuff
    I'm faster

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    1,815
    My sentiments exactly vito (regarding integrity). I have the same feelings about design theft, yet with some people around here seems as though they tolerate it. I see folks giving suggestions and input to a known ripper, what the hell is that? Run the bastards off.

    Why is that you think? Perhaps some have become so de-sensitized to it, they don't care? Or maybe because money never changed hands, they don't see it as theft. Or maybe it's because they're afraid of the truth, that they can't get a pixelbrick design for $150, so they ignore it.

    Anyways, good luck getting your money.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    1,372
    Check out our hosting plans or give us a call if you have any questions. We answer the phone!

    Well...that is what it says on his site anyway.

    Simon

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    11,059
    Originally posted by SimonMc
    Check out our hosting plans or give us a call if you have any questions. We answer the phone!

    Well...that is what it says on his site anyway.

    Simon
    Well, since I'm in Canada, his toll free number doesn't work for me, so when I call his regular number, it's on my nickel (rubbing yet more salt in the wound...)

    Vito
    DemoDemo.com - Flash tutorials since 2002
    DemoWolf.com - 5,300+ Flash tutorials for hosting companies, incl. Voice tutorials

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    1,372
    Maybe one of the nice US people here could give him a call...infact..if all the us people here give him a call and then another and another...you will soon get your $90 bucks worth as he has to pay for that toll free.

    Or..you could just forget it and say to your self...lesson learned...but it really sticks in the back of your throat to do it.

    If he is prepared to stake his rep for that...then his rep was probablly sh*t anyway and he won't give a monkeys what you say about him.

    Simon

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    11,059
    If I get paid, great. If I don't, lesson learned. Thankfully it would not be a lesson that was too expensive.

    What I think I will do is send him an email 2 (or 30) times a day until I get tired of doing it. At least I'll be "in his face" about it for a little while.

    Is there some kind of a cron job that I could set up to do that automatically??

    Vito
    DemoDemo.com - Flash tutorials since 2002
    DemoWolf.com - 5,300+ Flash tutorials for hosting companies, incl. Voice tutorials

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Illinois, USA
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    Is there some kind of a cron job that I could set up to do that automatically??
    make a PHP script and execute that via cron every half hour

  16. #16
    Yeah man, that definitely sucks.
    I always ask for a deposit on anything now after I get ripped off by a board member here about 3 weeks ago.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    11,059
    Originally posted by akash


    make a PHP script and execute that via cron every half hour
    I'd love to know how to do that. Is it a simple entry in the command line? I use cPanel, so I assume I click to create a cron job, but I'm unfamiliar with what to put into the command line...

    Vito
    DemoDemo.com - Flash tutorials since 2002
    DemoWolf.com - 5,300+ Flash tutorials for hosting companies, incl. Voice tutorials

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Orlando, FL
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    12,200
    PHP is evil for cron jobs
    But any how, emailing him every 30 minutes is not going to change anything; all he has to do is block your email address.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    11,059
    timechange - the voice of reason...again...
    Taking all the fun out of it.

    Vito
    DemoDemo.com - Flash tutorials since 2002
    DemoWolf.com - 5,300+ Flash tutorials for hosting companies, incl. Voice tutorials

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    425
    LOL!

    He can also just block your emails due to the subject or written content.

    But...is this really the best solution?

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
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    No, it's actually not. The solution is probably to chalk it up to experience and get on with business.

    Vito
    DemoDemo.com - Flash tutorials since 2002
    DemoWolf.com - 5,300+ Flash tutorials for hosting companies, incl. Voice tutorials

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    3,100
    Based on yours and my recent experience I think that there would be market out there for service that can provide some comfort in situations simmilar to this one . As soon I better undestand all legal issues, I will start coding it.

    Someone already had similar idea before.
    http://web.archive.org/web/200110271...com/index.html

  23. #23
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,799
    So 800 numbers really don't work in Canada?
    Have A Question?
    Call Us 866-465-9832
    DANG DANG! DANG!!™
    I know ***** ripped off everybody else, but they wouldn't do it to me.
    "When you use bottom feed for bait, you are only going to catch bottom feeders."
    "You do what you are, and you are what you do."

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
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    It depends on how you set it up with the phone company. I have a toll free line and have it set up to receive calls from anywhere in Canada and US. If I chose to, I could have it only work in Canada. If you're in the States, I guess you can specify the same thing, since when I call that number, it says "Your call cannot be completed as dialed". Unless of course the number is just no longer in service...

    Vito
    DemoDemo.com - Flash tutorials since 2002
    DemoWolf.com - 5,300+ Flash tutorials for hosting companies, incl. Voice tutorials

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,799
    OK try adding the country code 1-866-465-9832 and see if that helps. The US has been running out of numbers, and now (started in Oct 2002) we all have to dial the three digit prefix even if we are calling next door. Also, my cell doesn't need the "1" but the land line gives me the message "Your call cannot be completed as dialed" if I don't dial the "1" first.
    DANG DANG! DANG!!™
    I know ***** ripped off everybody else, but they wouldn't do it to me.
    "When you use bottom feed for bait, you are only going to catch bottom feeders."
    "You do what you are, and you are what you do."

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    1,815

    Simple cronjob

    If you want to send him an email at set times every day, you can use this.


    PHP Code:
    <?php
    //MDJ2000's extremely complicated emailer :P
    //Define the variables below and save this file as mailer.php and put it in an off-root folder, then point a cronjob to it

    $jerksemail "[email protected]"//define the offenders email address here
    $subject "Show Me the Money"//insert your own subject here
    $message "Dear Jerk!\n\nYou owe me $90!!!"//obviously this is the main text

    mail("$jerksemail","$subject","$message");
    ?>

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    12,200
    MDJ2000, it takes one line in the .filter to kill that baby.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    1,815
    I know that silly, but that's what he asked for. I can add some nifty randomization, but then it becomes spamware, and I can't have that

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    455

    Re: Simple cronjob

    Originally posted by MDJ2000
    PHP Code:
    <?php
    //MDJ2000's extremely complicated emailer :P
    //Define the variables below and save this file as mailer.php 
    //and put it in an off-root folder, then point a cronjob to it

    $jerksemail "[email protected]"//define the offenders email address here
    $subject "Show Me the Money"//insert your own subject here
    $message "[b]Dear Jerk!\n\nYou owe me $90!!!<b>If you want to send him an email at set times every day, you can use this.


    </b>"
    //obviously this is the main text

    mail("$jerksemail","$subject","$message");
    ?>
    [/B]
    Not sure if I am right because I use Perl, but should it be \$90?
    - Andy
    Free browser based game:
    http://www.critticage.com
    Play in your spare time!

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    1,815
    Technically, yes, but that should work. Being technical, you really should also send headers, etc.

    hence the "//MDJ2000's extremely complicated emailer " part...

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    455
    Well, he would look pretty stupid sending an email saying "Dear Jerk!\n\nYou owe me !!!"
    - Andy
    Free browser based game:
    http://www.critticage.com
    Play in your spare time!

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Adelaide, Australia
    Posts
    405
    Yeah, I feel your pain Vito!

    I have now got a policy of no payment, no product

    I used to let people have a template or whatever and then trust they would send payment ASAP - but after being totally burned by some one (not from this forum mind you) I now ask them to pay before I hand over the goods. (I give them screenshots to view with watermarks so they know what they are getting).

    It just really annoys me that there are people like this out there!

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    11,059
    Hmm. It appears that my elusive friend Edward visited WHT last night. First time he has visited since starting his thread http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...threadid=93317 . Likely to read the replies he received in his thread. So he's still alive and kicking. That's good.

    So how about it, Edward? Let's see you accept some responsibility and make good on your debt. Is this all really worth it to save a mere $90?

    Vito
    DemoDemo.com - Flash tutorials since 2002
    DemoWolf.com - 5,300+ Flash tutorials for hosting companies, incl. Voice tutorials

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Posts
    708
    I'll give his 1-800 number a call... I'll act interested, then ask him about his practices... that'll make him think a bit

    I'm serious too.. I'll call him tomorrow, and get a couple friends to call him. Hope it helps vito

    BTW, I love your tutorials... When you getting the ensim app done? And you should make a .htaccess demo.. although I guess there's not much video needed for that..
    www.neo-tech.us

    - Computer Sales/Repair/Networking
    - Web Design/Web Hosting

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    11,059
    Thanks, Lirath. Nice to get support from my fellow WHT members.

    The Ensim Site Admin tutorials are already done. The Appliance Admin, Reseller Admin and End User Admin are coming soon (hopefully within a week). Frankly, Ensim has been the toughest cp to do so far...taking a little bit longer than usual.

    And BTW, Lirath, sorry you're not on the MOTM list this month. We'll do our best to get you on the list next month...

    Vito
    DemoDemo.com - Flash tutorials since 2002
    DemoWolf.com - 5,300+ Flash tutorials for hosting companies, incl. Voice tutorials

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    13,277
    Unfortunetly my friend,there are jerks out there.....

    If you have his #,post it everywhere (hehehe) Dont let him get away with that!!

    The Dude

    Tinyurl is the answer for posting long urls!!!

  37. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    11,059
    Well, I had all but given up on this A/R. But 2 days ago, out of the blue, I received a telephone call from Edward. He said he would be sending payment the next day by overnight courier which I would receive today.

    Well, I just received a courier delivery. Full payment in certified funds as promised. Plus he added an extra $10 as a gesture of apology.

    Edward, I appreciate the payment.

    Vito
    DemoDemo.com - Flash tutorials since 2002
    DemoWolf.com - 5,300+ Flash tutorials for hosting companies, incl. Voice tutorials

  38. #38
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,799
    That's good to hear.
    All's well that ends well.
    DANG DANG! DANG!!™
    I know ***** ripped off everybody else, but they wouldn't do it to me.
    "When you use bottom feed for bait, you are only going to catch bottom feeders."
    "You do what you are, and you are what you do."

  39. #39
    Vito,
    Glad this guy finally stepped up to the plate. I've too been burned by not getting the cash up front...its a shame, but I'm glad this worked out to your benefit.

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    645
    Originally posted by vito
    You know, this makes me more disappointed than angry. Sometimes I'm just amazed at what dollar figure some people are prepared to compromise their integrity and name.

    Vito
    Doesn't surprise me at all. There is a certain type of person who gets off thinking he got something for nothing. I've learned the hard way that it's the little amounts that you've got to insist on getting up front.
    I'm trying to collect $50 now from a big company that I agreed to do a simple design for $100.
    Got half of front and they stiffed me for the other half.
    I have a signed contract that requires full payment whether they accept the final or not, but since they're halfway across the country doesn't do me much good. I'm tempted to send a collection agency after them just for the nuisance value.
    Laura K.
    http://www.madmousergraphics.com
    graphic design for grownups

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