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Limestone networks - no cooling for hard drives?

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  #1  
Old 11-15-2009, 04:55 PM
yaax yaax is offline
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Limestone networks - no cooling for hard drives?


Few days ago I purchased new server from Mainstream networks which is reseller of LimeStone networks.
The server deal was really amazing, all is good - price and hardware quality and support response all good. Except of one very important detail - in my server hard drive is overheaten.

I checked this by using smartd as I do for all my servers.
It have parameter Temperature_Celsius and on my new server with new hard drive this parameter is equal to 51 degrees of celsius when server is inactive and it is jumping to 54 when I execute some tests.
I contacted their support - which really was fast to answer me that they did checked their 67 servers and all of them have hard drives temperature in same range! And also they answered that have nothing to do with this fact and some of their servers are working long time more then one year with such overheat of hard drives....

After this I searched WHT and found this thread http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=903296 - telling that mainstream networks itself had hard drive failure few months ago - which now I understand why it was happened!

So now I have big wonder and big question - what to do now?
May be I am wrong when I am worry so much about hard drive overheat? May other Limestone network customers will share their experience with their hard drives temperatures?

I really suspect that they simply trying to cut prices by not using coolers - which is quite normal - on regular pc, hard drive will have such temperature in case you will not put few normal coolers into computer.
So I want to open this topic with a public question to other Limestone customers and stuff - what is their experience with cooling of their server hard drives?



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  #2  
Old 11-15-2009, 05:05 PM
mainstreamnet mainstreamnet is offline
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Just to clarify we had a hard drive failure on our old server at a different data center. We use multiple data centers for our personal use and we did check those and they were around the same temp as yours is.

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  #3  
Old 11-15-2009, 05:12 PM
MattS MattS is offline
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Most drives I think are rated at around 55 deg Celsius to probably 60 max.

Keep in mind this is a server environment and not a desktop enviornment. Makes a huge difference when you're shoving everything in a 1U form than a midtower. If you're worried what I would do is use something to backup the contents of the drive like offsite (r1soft or rsync for example) and that way you're prepared if it does happen to topple but I think it should be fine.

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  #4  
Old 11-15-2009, 05:29 PM
mainstreamnet mainstreamnet is offline
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From LSN

Here is the manufactures page on the drive specifications:
http://www.wdc.com/en/PRODUCTS/products.asp?driveid=487
Temperature (Metric)
Operating -0° C to 60° C
Non-operating -40° C to 70° C
If the drive is running in the 50-55deg then that is normal. As long as the HDD stays under the 60deg mark there should be no issues.

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  #5  
Old 11-15-2009, 05:38 PM
yaax yaax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainstreamnet View Post
From LSN

Here is the manufactures page on the drive specifications:
http://www.wdc.com/en/PRODUCTS/products.asp?driveid=487
Temperature (Metric)
Operating -0° C to 60° C
Non-operating -40° C to 70° C
If the drive is running in the 50-55deg then that is normal. As long as the HDD stays under the 60deg mark there should be no issues.
According to my and many other people experience - is that normal healthy hard drive temperature is in range of 30°-40°
If disk temperature is raising it became in danger of failure and loss of data. And it is normal practic to put coolers into pc that will do the proper job of cooling the hard drive.

You can see yourself that top operational temperature for such disks is 60° - which is very close to my drive temperature and it may overheat soon to this value like the previous disk which I had - which had 61° temperature even when it was not active but it was old about 6.5 months. So I can approximate that even new disk will wait same story - especially in such kind of websites which I am going to put there - which will cause for extensive amount of load on harddrive!

  #6  
Old 11-15-2009, 05:42 PM
yaax yaax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt - HostMist View Post
Most drives I think are rated at around 55 deg Celsius to probably 60 max.

Keep in mind this is a server environment and not a desktop enviornment. Makes a huge difference when you're shoving everything in a 1U form than a midtower. If you're worried what I would do is use something to backup the contents of the drive like offsite (r1soft or rsync for example) and that way you're prepared if it does happen to topple but I think it should be fine.
I've had and have servers in few datacenters but no where I never seen such so high disks temperatures! Ok, I can assume that it may be caused by using some special 1U servers, but this still make no difference - if disk will fail it will loose all data no matter of what size was this server...

  #7  
Old 11-15-2009, 05:52 PM
MattS MattS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaax View Post
I've had and have servers in few datacenters but no where I never seen such so high disks temperatures! Ok, I can assume that it may be caused by using some special 1U servers, but this still make no difference - if disk will fail it will loose all data no matter of what size was this server...
It won't fail that easily, WD black edition drives are built to withstand more heat than an average drive (hence why they cost a lot more).

I don't think you have much to worry about especially since Limestone has been around for what seems like forever?

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  #8  
Old 11-15-2009, 06:01 PM
UNIXy UNIXy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt - HostMist View Post
Most drives I think are rated at around 55 deg Celsius to probably 60 max.

Keep in mind this is a server environment and not a desktop enviornment. Makes a huge difference when you're shoving everything in a 1U form than a midtower.

It's not just the fact that it's in 1U form. A lot of facilities use half depth (14") 1U servers where the server builder is forced to cram the components together. Air flow is naturally poor as a result.

Regards
Joe

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  #9  
Old 11-15-2009, 06:02 PM
yaax yaax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt - HostMist View Post
It won't fail that easily, WD black edition drives are built to withstand more heat than an average drive (hence why they cost a lot more).

I don't think you have much to worry about especially since Limestone has been around for what seems like forever?
Thats was my question - may be some of other people had used servers with similar hard drives with similar overheat temperatures - how much time their drives worked properly without failure?

  #10  
Old 11-15-2009, 06:22 PM
hotpass105 hotpass105 is offline
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My hard drives on my Softlayer server are at 23C and 22C.
CPU is around 30C
Even my home CPU an overclocked Q6600 is only running at 49C....

Seems pretty bad that their HHD's run so hot.

  #11  
Old 11-15-2009, 06:35 PM
prologan prologan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaax View Post
According to my and many other people experience
Your experience maybe, but "other people experience" is not a valid reference unless you cite some reputable sources which reflect your statement. And it is easy to see why you didn't cite any sources...other people's experience is the opposite of what you are saying.

Google, who likely maintains more spindles than any other single entity in the world, has released internal studies showing that failure rate is not directly attributed to operating temperature. Even the drive manufacturer does not agree with you as the drive is within its normal operating range.

http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.pdf
http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20...-once-thought/

That said, the higher end setups with dual xeons and RE3 drives at LSN also have much more drive cooling to support the additional hard drive capacity. If the temperatures concern you, you may want to consider looking at one of the higher end setups.. then you will see operating temps in the 30-40c range.


Last edited by prologan; 11-15-2009 at 06:41 PM.
  #12  
Old 11-16-2009, 04:19 AM
BarackObama BarackObama is offline
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Dont worry about the overheat..just ensure that you have enough redundancy like raid1,r1soft for your drives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yaax View Post
May be I am wrong when I am worry so much about hard drive overheat?

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Last edited by BarackObama; 11-16-2009 at 04:24 AM.
  #13  
Old 11-16-2009, 05:52 AM
yaax yaax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prologan View Post
Your experience maybe, but "other people experience" is not a valid reference unless you cite some reputable sources which reflect your statement. And it is easy to see why you didn't cite any sources...other people's experience is the opposite of what you are saying.

Google, who likely maintains more spindles than any other single entity in the world, has released internal studies showing that failure rate is not directly attributed to operating temperature. Even the drive manufacturer does not agree with you as the drive is within its normal operating range.

http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.pdf
http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20...-once-thought/

That said, the higher end setups with dual xeons and RE3 drives at LSN also have much more drive cooling to support the additional hard drive capacity. If the temperatures concern you, you may want to consider looking at one of the higher end setups.. then you will see operating temps in the 30-40c range.
If you will check curefully google report, you will see that they even did not checked such disks where temperature is higher then 51 celsius degrees - and on my server disk temperature - started from 51 and growed to 54. And even for disks in their report, they see that risks of failure are increasing with major growth of operating temperature. Indeed on lower temperatures values from 35-45 risk of failure is lowest and after temperature growth more then 48 or failing less then 30 - then failure rates starting to grow.

  #14  
Old 11-16-2009, 06:08 AM
Bjørn-Erik Hansen Bjørn-Erik Hansen is offline
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Is this really something to cry over ?

As long as it works, who cares how or why.

  #15  
Old 11-16-2009, 06:14 AM
yaax yaax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjørn-Erik Hansen View Post
Is this really something to cry over ?

As long as it works, who cares how or why.
If hard drive will fail, it will be too late to cry as it will cause big money loss. So it is much better to cry now - before problem occured. And I even not crying right now, I am just asking a question.

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