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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    79

    Being Scammed Out of My Own Design

    Well this is an awfully interesting encounter which will lead me to suggest that the Design Offers and Design Requests forums require a minimum post count and a week of activity.

    I posted this auction (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=900976) some time back. Shortly received a private message from new user jandia asking if I would accept $150 and close the auction. I told him that he could make his bid publicly for it to count, however I would not sell at that time for such a small amount.

    Near the end of the auction I received an interested buyer who was hoping to take it off my hands for the BIN price. The user disappeared and left me hanging after the auction end date.

    The highest bidder was jandia for $160. I posted that he had won and contacted him via private message to proceed. I had him message me with a PayPal address (which is a very sketchy address about gangs which he also mentioned to not worry about).

    It was at that point I did a final check of the XHTML/CSS code and cross-browser compatibility. I had outsourced to a friend to take care of it for me so I could focus on my actual clients rather than focus on a small template I was selling in an auction. Upon checking, some small pieces of code were invalid and it did not work outside of Firefox and Chrome. I e-mailed jandia at the PayPal address he provided with the PSD (to be sure he was confident he would receive files and was not being scammed). I informed him that the person I outsourced to didn't do things right the first time around and that I would go ahead and send him the XHTML/CSS once I completed it myself.

    I get an e-mail from him saying that he wants a refund and "This is disappointing and the purchase is not proving to be satisfactory."

    First: he won the design for $190 less than the BIN price after trying to buy it from me for $10 less a few days prior.
    Second: he won a 3-page, color coded, neatly named and layered PSD with labor value beyond $160.
    Third: I offered quickly after realizing to recode the XHTML/CSS files and send them to him, but was sure to give him the PSD.
    Fourth: It costs $40/$50/$60 to get someone to code a template, which would still be far less than the BIN on the design.

    In response to his e-mail I told him I made him quickly aware of the situation and that he would be receiving his files, however that I would stop coding them due to him previously threatening in his first e-mail to open a buyer dispute with PayPal.

    Then he came back with this:

    Unless you provide the 3 pages without validation errors within the next few hours I will have no alternative but to report the below for fraud by wire in addition to legal steps to prevent you defrauding others.
    And below was my home address (what the hell?) as well as local police. Fraud by wire? He paid through PayPal which protects payments, not wire transfer. He received a file worth beyond what he paid and was told he would receive valid coded pages shortly. I would be eating the time to recode them for him, so he wouldn't have to go pay someone else to do it.

    I sent him a response restating that he would be receiving his files today as promised, but then received an e-mail in response with an attached photo of my face asking me to confirm that it was me.

    Then I get another e-mail calling me immature and that I lack a basic communication skill set with more threats to contact local police to report me for fraud if I don't get him coded pages today... which I've promised now three times.

    ---

    Long story short: I sold the guy a design PSD with XHTML/CSS coded pages. I failed to properly check the validity and cross-browser compatibility of the coded design and faced what I was responsible for and therefore offered to recode myself and have them to him. Now within 24 hours of the sale he has made numerous threats to contact local authorities, has sent me a picture of myself, has threatened to dispute via PayPal, and has made harassing remarks via e-mail.

    I'm contemplating whether he is impatient or if he is attempting to scare me into returning his funds so he can walk off with a free PSD that he can get coded for dirt cheap.

    Forgot to mention: I will be sending him coded files, as I promised, today. However I will not be doing business with him in the future even if it promises a few thousand dollars.
    Last edited by Ryan Barr; 11-06-2009 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    79
    In response to his latest e-mail containing threats and rude remarks, I replied with this:

    *****,

    As I've stated repeatedly now, you will be receiving your files today coded as promised. My sincerest apologies that I did not take the proper steps to check the work of others. It is my error, and I am paying for that by losing a days worth of work to code for you.

    Allow me to reach out and ask if there are any modifications you would like on the design. I'll provide up to five small changes to help relieve some of the hassle this purchase has made for you. Whether those be changing colors, putting your logo on, changing the navigation, etc. Please just inform me of the changes you would like.

    I'm in no way attempting to fraud or scam you. I do not appreciate the harassing remarks you've made nor the threats you've brought up.

    Best,
    Ryan
    At this point just hoping to work through this and put it behind me.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Chennai
    Posts
    121
    if he is attempting to contact local authorities then high chances you can explain the situation to them and recode the page and send it to him.

    if he contacts paypal then i dont think paypal has any protection for service correct me if iam wrong.. did he send money via paypal funds or cc ?

    thats actually quite a good reply .. some just give replies like that n never work..hope u solve things with him

    Thanks

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,479
    I would hold up your end of the deal (which it looks like you are, nice one ) and be done with it.

    It sounds like he just is just trying to intimidate you and he's bordering on criminal harassment himself with his little internet tough guy show. The police probably would not even investigate this as a fraud case.

    Dave

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Six Degrees From You
    Posts
    1,079
    Wow, seems like a buyer to be aware of. Thanks for the report.

    In my opinion, you should send the coded files over as you agreed, that way you have lived up to your end of the contract. If the buyer opens a dispute then all you would need to do is to respond to Paypal and lay the facts out as you have here, include transcripts of the emails he sent you.

    As for the posting of your home address and images of yourself, go to the police and ask their advice, again give them as much information as they require, this could be the start of a blackmail attempt against you.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    79
    Thanks for the replies everyone.

    PayPal does not secure funds for online transactions for non-tangible goods, in this case web designs. That's the unfortunate thing about paying with PayPal for designs. You need a designer who is really not going to scam you.

    If he were to open a dispute, PayPal would see it is for a web design and immediately close the case in the seller's favor.

    His design is open in Coda right now being restructured and styled from the ground up to be sure it is valid, and cross-browser friendly in Firefox, Opera, Safari, Chrome, and IE.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,479
    Nice design, by the way.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    San Francisco, California
    Posts
    469
    Filing a police report for fraud because you needed another day to finish the files is ridiculous.

    First of all you didn't defraud him because you're going to deliver it within a timely manner and second of all that would require him proving that you intended to defraud him by not providing it which you clearly did plan on and he even made it a requirement that you make these changes.

    It sounds like he's just trying to scare you by getting your home address and picture, which if you do as much as online as most of us do is actually pretty easy to come across.

    Just deliver your end of the deal as soon as you can and you should be protected through paypal because it's non-tangible goods. Hopefully everything works out!
    Larry Bly
    Sandbox IT Solutions, LLC.
    www.SandboxITSolutions.com
    Dedicated Servers - Web Hosting - Consulting Services

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    The Woodlands, Tx
    Posts
    5,974
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Barr View Post
    PayPal does not secure funds for online transactions for non-tangible goods, in this case web designs. That's the unfortunate thing about paying with PayPal for designs.
    If you send it to him certified mail on a CD, it becomes a tangible item. Then you are protected by Paypal.

  10. #10
    Gentleman, this member is seeking heartfelt warm messages of support and most of the replies are falling into his deception.

    We are a 7 year old company AVR Ltd and FWS Ltd with over 100 websites and a strong financial background. He on the other hand is 18 year old who is endeavouring to scam us.

    At the time of this post he has failed to provide what we purchased in good faith.

    Following our bid we waited 3 days until he communicated within the WHT thread with his apology for the delay owing to issues. Despite the long wait we stuck by our commitment and purchased the template. Yet in another email to us he advises he was pursuing a PM offer so clearly he misrepresented the delay in responding to the purchase. Without warning and only when he had received our funds he mentions that he is unable to provide the 3 html pages and css. Further within the same communication he failed to provide any indication of when the 3 pages would be received other than the comment “The XHTML/CSS files are going to trail shortly”. Note here there is no definitive date or time and is therefore in our minds completely open ended as to when such would be received if ever.

    The design was clearly incomplete prior to the sale and was misrepresented within the sales thread.

    I do not enjoy losing money especially to children who scam. We go in hard and fast to recover our funds and take it personally. We purchase over $6k of scripts and templates per annum and experience has told us not to muck about when we purchase something which is not correct or incomplete.

    Just to reconfirm at the time of this post we are still awaiting our html files and yet the scammer has the time to post here and on his Twitter page to rally support instead of providing what we purchased in good faith.

    Guys put yourselves in our position and make the balanced decision as to whether we are being unreasonable.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Six Degrees From You
    Posts
    1,079
    Quote Originally Posted by jandia View Post
    Guys put yourselves in our position and make the balanced decision as to whether we are being unreasonable.
    Yes, you are.

    As far an I can make out, he was selling a design, which you have received. He was including the coded pages as a favour to the buyer.

    You won the auction and paid $200 less than the BIN, wait a few more days and then try and work it out with the seller. You have the design so why not go and get someone else to code your pages?

  12. #12
    He was selling a design which should have included the 3 valid coded pages and css which despite the 3 days wait and email promises have yet to materialise.

    The sales thread was misrepresented along with his continued promises.

    When I purchases goods unlike you Paul I prefer to receive all of what I have purchased.

    Lets put it another way. If you purchased a brand new car and it was delivered without the wheels are you saying you would be a happy bunny? Your views are clearly different to mine.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kusadasi, Turkey
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    3,379
    Quote Originally Posted by jandia View Post
    He was selling a design which should have included the 3 valid coded pages and css which despite the 3 days wait and email promises have yet to materialise.

    The sales thread was misrepresented along with his continued promises.
    Can you please point me to the line in the sales thread where he says the design was already coded?

    As far as I can see, he says "What's Included: Valid XHTML Transitional Pages". This doesn't mean they are already coded. It only means he will provide you with the coded files, which he still is willing to do.

    Most designs are uncoded until they are sold. This is because the client may want modifications on the design, whcih should be reflected on the coding after purchase. My latest design offer (which you showed some interest) is being sold with coded files, however I only code a design after somebody purchases it. This is a good practice to make sure the client gets exactly what he wants.
    Fraud Record - Stop Fraud Clients, Report Abusive Customers.
    █ Combine your efforts to fight misbehaving clients.

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  14. #14
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    Oct 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by jandia View Post
    He was selling a design which should have included the 3 valid coded pages and css which despite the 3 days wait and email promises have yet to materialise.
    3 days? Big deal, perhaps the seller has more important things to do, like his job? Give the guy a break and if you have not received the files by Wednesday then you are justified in complaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by jandia View Post
    The sales thread was misrepresented along with his continued promises.
    Not really, as he said he has outsourced the coding to a friend and assumed they were correct, would you have prefered him to just send the files without checking to see if they were valid?

    Quote Originally Posted by jandia View Post
    When I purchases goods unlike you Paul I prefer to receive all of what I have purchased.
    I prefer getting all that I have received too, but I wait a few days, and try and work things out with the seller, before calling the seller a scammer.

    Quote Originally Posted by jandia View Post
    Lets put it another way. If you purchased a brand new car and it was delivered without the wheels are you saying you would be a happy bunny? Your views are clearly different to mine.
    That's like comparing apples to oranges. If you spend $6000 a year on scripts, then waiting a few days for a $150 design will not hurt you.

  15. #15
    Paul,

    You still don’t get it.

    Its not about the money . . its about honesty and integrity.

    We purchased on the basis of the sales thread.

    We have not received what we purchased in good faith.

    You appear to adopt a very simplistic and casual approach to business.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    529
    Quote Originally Posted by jandia View Post
    Paul,

    You still don’t get it.

    Its not about the money . . its about honesty and integrity.

    We purchased on the basis of the sales thread.

    We have not received what we purchased in good faith.

    You appear to adopt a very simplistic and casual approach to business.
    Next time do business with a PROFESSIONAL company. I've seen this happen to often with freelanced designs.

    Learn from this mistake and move on.

    Just take what he has given you, find a professional company and have them fix up what ever is left over.

    You both probably feel a bit cheated, but who is right and wrong is hard to judge. I think both of you could've worked this out with a little give and take from both sides.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Cleveland,Ohio...
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    415
    Give me his email address i will take care of him.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    8,154
    Since it's a auction, it doesn't really matter if he won the auction at $200 below the BIN price, the user still won the auction. You didn't do the user any favors by selling it at the bidding price, that's how auctions work.

    jandia, give him a break, let him try to finish the work and if he fails to deliver you have every right to have your money back because you did not receive what you paid for.

    If this was a eBay case, the buyer would be in favor since the seller failed to deliver what was promised in the auction. However they would suggest working it out before disputing any cases.

    As far as I can see, he says "What's Included: Valid XHTML Transitional Pages". This doesn't mean they are already coded. It only means he will provide you with the coded files, which he still is willing to do.
    As far as I can see, it does not say anywhere that he will be coding it in the future it says included with the auction. You can't start a auction and build a product after selling the item.

    Unfortunately I do not have any sympathy for the seller, since I've seen these kinds of hoax way too many times by freelance designers who promise something but fail to deliver and then try to get sympathy to buy more time.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
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    2,625
    Quote Originally Posted by jandia View Post
    Paul,

    You still don’t get it.

    Its not about the money . . its about honesty and integrity.

    We purchased on the basis of the sales thread.

    We have not received what we purchased in good faith.

    You appear to adopt a very simplistic and casual approach to business.
    You do realize that by US law, you can't even file a complaint against a seller due to non-delievered without a 30 days notice?

    I really think you're taking this too far.

    The OP is obviously more than willing to work with you, it is you of whom is not willing to work with him.

    If you're that worried about not receiving payment, send a certified letter to him clearly stating that they have 30 days notice otherwise you will take legal action.

    Prior to doing that, no law enforcement agency will take you seriously.

    In addition, law enforcement agencies don't handle such requests, especially at this price range. This would need to be handled in court, not through the police.

    Threatening to involve the police is just immature and shows a lack of knowledge in local/state/federal laws.

    Stop threatening the OP, wait patiently, and let him get the work done correctly.

    All he wants to do is correct what was incorrect.


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  20. #20
    I think the last few comments have readdressed the balance of opinion.

    The problem here is that the seller posted selected snippets of email correspondence which seeks to reflect his case within the best light. He failed to show his email where he comments “I'm halting the process as there is the potential of me being scammed out of my design” along with other comments which served to provoke hostility.

    Anyway enough management time has been wasted on this issue and we still have not received the files despite all the promises.

    We just purchased a design from Harzem a professional designer who delivered what we paid for within seconds.

    Its not hard doing business here you just have to select diligently the professional sellers and stay away from the scammers.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,745
    Jandia,

    Honestly age does not play a role alot of designers are young I mean alot of designers, Alot of the web 2.0 is from young designers.

    You have not been scammed please explain how you have been scammed ?
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  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,745
    Also I'm interested to know why such a professional business person as you make out to be, Threatens to contact local police etc etc A little immature in my opinion considering the buyer apologized for delay and so on.

    Please Jandia, You run multiple websites etc etc, so you should know that it is sometimes not easy to get things right the first time or on time.

    Anyway I suggest you see a doctor about your issues in regards to Anxiety and depression the way you are attacking such a character is unbelievable in my opinion.
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  23. #23
    Here is the psd should anyone which to use.

    [URL removed]

    The matter is closed I am off to the doctors!
    Last edited by bear; 11-28-2009 at 09:49 AM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    2,745
    I suggest that people don't download the file!
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  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    79
    Thanks for all the responses everyone.

    Friday night around 8PM EST the files were sent by e-mail to the buyer's PayPal address. (I don't send the files elsewhere to prevent sending to someone who didn't pay for them.) The buyer never gave me confirmation, however the following day (Saturday, yesterday) told me he never received the files.

    I sent back a response asking him to check his spam folder, trash can, etc. to be sure it wasn't improperly redirected. Was told he still did not receive and was asked to resend or upload. (I do not upload files, because at the point in which I do the link can be redistributed or stumbled upon and downloaded. Not a good thing when I'm selling a design with full rights.) I resent the files last night after returning to the desk after my Saturday.

    This morning was scrolling through e-mail on my iPhone to come to notice still no confirmation that he received the files. Sent him a request confirming that he received them and in return was told that they "placed [my] psd design in the recycle bin and purchased another design" and "You win . . you scammed us and we will take the appropriate steps. Please do not communicate with us again."

    At this point I'm not going to deal with it beyond what I have. If he wants to attempt to contact my local authorities that is fine, I'm not sure what they would plan to do.

    The fact of the matter is that he's at least confirmed receipt of the PSD design that he paid for and at this point is unwilling to attempt to receive the files which were said to be provided and requested by the buyer.

    Anywho, thanks for everything guys.

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