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  1. #1

    Question Need Web server Upgrade advise ...

    Greetings -

    My Current Setup -
    Windows 2000 Adv Server
    P4 - 4GB RAM, 120 GB Drives

    This is connected directly to my cable modem, I have 2 NICs .. one goes to the modem and another to a switch to provide internet to other computers here at my home ...

    ---
    I want to upgrade my server -

    Looking at Windows 2008 Server --

    ---
    Setup Option 1

    Windows 2008 Web Verison ( doesnt have Hyper, and other stuff that i dont really need since I only need IIS ) cost alot less then the standard verison. Web Verison doesnt have Routing nor DHCP -

    So I have to purchase a Router/Firewall. This one seems good
    "Cisco RVS4000 4-port Gigabit Security Router - VPN"

    Going to build a new computer too
    QuadCore, 8GB Ram, solidstate drives

    ---
    Setup Option 2

    Windows 2008 Standard
    Quadcore / 8 GB RAM / Solidstate drives

    Same config / setup as orignal server but costs alot more.

    ~~~~

    Can someone tell me which option I should do or if you have any other better way for me to upgrade?


    Thanks for viewing and any intel shared.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmp3 View Post
    Greetings -

    My Current Setup -
    Windows 2000 Adv Server
    P4 - 4GB RAM, 120 GB Drives

    This is connected directly to my cable modem, I have 2 NICs .. one goes to the modem and another to a switch to provide internet to other computers here at my home ...

    ---
    I want to upgrade my server -

    Looking at Windows 2008 Server --

    ---
    Setup Option 1

    Windows 2008 Web Verison ( doesnt have Hyper, and other stuff that i dont really need since I only need IIS ) cost alot less then the standard verison. Web Verison doesnt have Routing nor DHCP -

    So I have to purchase a Router/Firewall. This one seems good
    "Cisco RVS4000 4-port Gigabit Security Router - VPN"

    Going to build a new computer too
    QuadCore, 8GB Ram, solidstate drives

    ---
    Setup Option 2

    Windows 2008 Standard
    Quadcore / 8 GB RAM / Solidstate drives

    Same config / setup as orignal server but costs alot more.

    ~~~~

    Can someone tell me which option I should do or if you have any other better way for me to upgrade?


    Thanks for viewing and any intel shared.
    Well, really either option would be up to your preference. Some people prefer Hardware Firewalls and routing. Others prefer setting these up on the server.

    With option 1, You create 1 more possiblity for something going wrong (e.g. the router dieing/crashing - which honestly doesn't happen too often but can). Hosting your DNS and DHCP services on your server means your server will be using more system resources.

    Windows Server 2008 in my experience can be pretty resource intensive at a base install, more so than 2003. I had a base Install on a machine with 2 dual xeons and 2gb ram back when 08 first came out and ram usage was always above 1.5Gb at idle with no services. Needless to say we upgraded that server.

    But I'm sure being a windows user your aware of the resource consumption of Windows apposed to a good Linux box.

    If it was me I would prob just upgrade the server and get 08 standard, you never know if there might be some other features you want later on down the road. Well that is unless Linux is Option 3, then there may not even be a need for an upgrade ;-)
    Ya, I know I'm hate'n on Windows :-/ I do 99.9% of the time.
    Last edited by IamDH4; 10-23-2009 at 12:18 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamDH4 View Post
    Well, really either option would be up to your preference. Some people prefer Hardware Firewalls and routing. Others prefer setting these up on the server.

    With option 1, You create 1 more possiblity for something going wrong (e.g. the router dieing/crashing - which honestly doesn't happen too often but can). Hosting your DNS and DHCP services on your server means your server will be using more system resources.

    Windows Server 2008 in my experience can be pretty resource intensive at a base install, more so than 2003. I had a base Install on a machine with 2 dual xeons and 2gb ram back when 08 first came out and ram usage was always above 1.5Gb at idle with no services. Needless to say we upgraded that server.

    But I'm sure being a windows user your aware of the resource consumption of Windows apposed to a good Linux box.

    If it was me I would prob just upgrade the server and get 08 standard, you never know if there might be some other features you want later on down the road. Well that is if Linux wasn't an option
    The at or above 1.5gb ram usage at idle would be cached memory, which is a good thing.

    To the thread owner:

    I'd go for the first option, as you said yourself, all you need is IIS for the website, server 08 web edition or even 03 web edition would cover your needs.

    I like the idea of a hardware firewall/router, much more stable and uses its own resources, rather than using that of the servers. SSD's are a great addition to a server, extremely fast and stable speeds. Finally, the quad core and 8gb ram setup should easily be able to handle webhosting. Although 8gb ram seems quite high for website hosting so i'd assume you'll be expecting high traffic. Have you thought about dual cpu setups? That would benefit greatly.

  4. #4
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    The at or above 1.5gb ram usage at idle would be cached memory, which is a good thing.
    Never said It wasn't a "GOOD THING"... Its just kinda there lol.
    Plus the fact windows runs a GUI at all times uses some resources as well. Really the point was kinda... well... pointless, other then me preferring Linux ... unless he's running mission critical apps, and needs the extra ram that DNS and DHCP would take up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IamDH4 View Post
    Never said It wasn't a "GOOD THING"... Its just kinda there lol.
    Plus the fact windows runs a GUI at all times uses some resources as well. Really the point was kinda... well... pointless, other then me preferring Linux ... unless he's running mission critical apps, and needs the extra ram that DNS and DHCP would take up.
    Yeah but the way you said it "over 1.5gb ram used at idle" was as if you thought by adding more ram you'd have more "free" ram. If you added more ram, it would just cache more.

    But I do agree, running it on linux would not only save money, but a huge amount of resources.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by XENnode View Post
    Yeah but the way you said it "over 1.5gb ram used at idle" was as if you thought by adding more ram you'd have more "free" ram. If you added more ram, it would just cache more.

    But I do agree, running it on linux would not only save money, but a huge amount of resources.
    Valid Point! You win lol -sigh- If only i could edit it :-/

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamDH4 View Post
    Valid Point! You win lol -sigh- If only i could edit it :-/
    Haha, there's a good reason for the 15 minute editing period. Winning arguments!

  8. #8
    I dont have much of any experience with setting up / running linux -

    My site is mainly in ASP / .net and linux doesnt really do that unless u get some (mod_mono) thing .. again which is more to configure etc and for a someone with zero experience w/linux .. this would all be a nightmare -

    ~~~~

    I have up and running a server and it does pretty good .. it just cant handle huge traffic spikes to well .. the CPU goes to 100% and everything craps out ..

    I'm assuming (not sure) that upgrading to a QuadCore / 64Bit OS / Tons of Ram and good fast harddrives will get more users onto the site during peek traffic spikes..

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmp3 View Post
    I dont have much of any experience with setting up / running linux -

    My site is mainly in ASP / .net and linux doesnt really do that unless u get some (mod_mono) thing .. again which is more to configure etc and for a someone with zero experience w/linux .. this would all be a nightmare -

    ~~~~

    I have up and running a server and it does pretty good .. it just cant handle huge traffic spikes to well .. the CPU goes to 100% and everything craps out ..

    I'm assuming (not sure) that upgrading to a QuadCore / 64Bit OS / Tons of Ram and good fast harddrives will get more users onto the site during peek traffic spikes..
    If you are happy using Windows, stick with it.

    By the sound of it, this website has very high traffic. If you can afford the following specs, go for something similar to a Dual CPU Quad core Xeon Nehalem (possibly Xeon 5520/5540) setup, which means ddr3 ram. Much faster processor/ram speeds. For the hdds I recommend 4x SAS 15k rpm 300gb HDD's (or less gb) in RAID10.

    The above specifications should easily handle your needs, and provide head room for future requirements.

  10. #10

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by XENnode View Post
    By the sound of it, this website has very high traffic. If you can afford the following specs, go for something similar to a Dual CPU Quad core Xeon Nehalem (possibly Xeon 5520/5540) setup, which means ddr3 ram. Much faster processor/ram speeds. For the hdds I recommend 4x SAS 15k rpm 300gb HDD's (or less gb) in RAID10.
    What kind of traffic will the above type of a server be able to handle?

    Something like this forum ?
    1000's + Users at the same time?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmp3 View Post
    What kind of traffic will the above type of a server be able to handle?

    Something like this forum ?
    1000's + Users at the same time?
    Well when your getting into high traffic volumes you got to watch your bandwidth... Provided your bandwidth is large enough should be able to handle 1000's of users with ease.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmp3 View Post
    What kind of traffic will the above type of a server be able to handle?

    Something like this forum ?
    1000's + Users at the same time?
    Well when your getting into high traffic volumes you got to watch your bandwidth... Provided your bandwidth is large enough, and based on your content your providing, it should handle 1000's of users with ease. Especially if you go with the SAS drives xennode mentioned. And more ram means you can cache more commonly accessed files, so you don't keep pulling the data off the hdd's. That Kind of server setup can get pricey though... The Nahelem procs are not cheap!, and neither are SAS drives compared to sata drives... i haven't priced SSD's lately.
    Last edited by IamDH4; 10-23-2009 at 01:56 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by XENnode View Post
    By the sound of it, this website has very high traffic. If you can afford the following specs, go for something similar to a Dual CPU Quad core Xeon Nehalem (possibly Xeon 5520/5540) setup, which means ddr3 ram. Much faster processor/ram speeds. For the hdds I recommend 4x SAS 15k rpm 300gb HDD's (or less gb) in RAID10.

    The above specifications should easily handle your needs, and provide head room for future requirements.
    Going off your recommendations .. I have the follow wish list build
    http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/Pu...umber=12685206

    Can you guys check it out and see if I should change anything ?

    Also .. its currently priced at around 3k
    Anyone know if I can get a fully configured system based off the list for under that price?
    Last edited by badmp3; 10-23-2009 at 06:40 PM.

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    I highly doubt you can get a pre made server of those specifications for less than that. It's better to build it yourself (if you know what you are doing), then you know exactly what has gone into it.

    You have two problems with that list. One, you need the same amount of ram for each cpu split up, meaning you can't use 3x2gb, you'd need 6x1gb for 6gb or 6x2gb for 12gb ram. Also, you need a hardware RAID card, I recommend 3ware, one of these should set you back around $300.

    Apart from those, the wishlist looks fine to me, just make sure the case can support the server boards.
    Last edited by XENnode; 10-23-2009 at 10:26 PM.

  15. #15
    It would be very tough to find a server with those specs for under that price ($3400 with RAID). The main reason being is that most manufacturers factor in a fair amount for the 3 years of service/support that comes with it. As long as you're good with building/supporting it on your own that looks like a great option.

    Watch out for the cooling with those big drives and CPUs in there. That case might not cut it for the hardware you're including.

    You might be able to get something like this from a Dell Partner for just over $4,000.

    Josh

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by XENnode View Post
    I highly doubt you can get a pre made server of those specifications for less than that. It's better to build it yourself (if you know what you are doing), then you know exactly what has gone into it.

    You have two problems with that list. One, you need the same amount of ram for each cpu split up, meaning you can't use 3x2gb, you'd need 6x1gb for 6gb or 6x2gb for 12gb ram. Also, you need a hardware RAID card, I recommend 3ware, one of these should set you back around $300.

    Apart from those, the wishlist looks fine to me, just make sure the case can support the server boards.
    The motherboard has a feature noted

    Features 8 x 6Gbps SAS / SATA ports :
    LSI 6Gbps SAS 2008
    RAID 0, 1, 10 support

    isnt that what controls the RAID? the LSI chip thats on the motherboard /?

    ~~~
    As for the CPU / Memory .. when you say spilt up is this reffering to doing some sort of Hyper / Virtualization? ie more OS running or something?

    I dont have any plans on doing stuff like that -
    Just need IIS and going to have MYSQL on the server ...
    thats about it ..

    lol do note . my current win2k P4 3GB system is doing the hosting right now ... with almost no issues ..
    this server that is on the wish list . looks like MAJOR OMG Overkill lol

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by XENnode View Post
    you'd need 6x1gb for 6gb or 6x2gb for 12gb ram. Also, you need a hardware RAID card, I recommend 3ware, one of these should set you back around $300.
    I submit a vote for 6x2GB sticks... And I agree with using 3ware. It'd give you much better performance than doing a soft-raid.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmp3 View Post
    The motherboard has a feature noted

    Features 8 x 6Gbps SAS / SATA ports :
    LSI 6Gbps SAS 2008
    RAID 0, 1, 10 support

    isnt that what controls the RAID? the LSI chip thats on the motherboard /?

    ~~~
    As for the CPU / Memory .. when you say spilt up is this reffering to doing some sort of Hyper / Virtualization? ie more OS running or something?

    I dont have any plans on doing stuff like that -
    Just need IIS and going to have MYSQL on the server ...
    thats about it ..

    lol do note . my current win2k P4 3GB system is doing the hosting right now ... with almost no issues ..
    this server that is on the wish list . looks like MAJOR OMG Overkill lol
    Valid point on the raid, I didn't note that. You should be fine using the on-board raid...

    To answer your question about the RAM, each cpu requires the same amount of ram as the other, they have their own dedicated ram. So, if you give one CPU 6GB of ram, you have to give the other-one 6GB. It'd be the same as if you where running two motherboards, you can't use the same for both.

    Honestly, if your p4 server is just about handling it, I would probably recommend going with a core2duo, or a core i5 setup. Or if price maters a lot you can look at AMD's phenom and opteron prices...

    I'd say all you need is a really good dual core, and all the ram you can through at it... and you'll be set for a while to come... oh, and faster HDD's couldn't hurt, and If you looking for another price cut, you could always do a raid 5, you only need a minimum of 3disks and you only lose the space of one drive apposed to half of your space with raid 10. However raid 10 will give you better read/write speed and redundancy. Raid 5 can withstand a 1 disk failure, raid 10 can withstand up to a 2disk failure at minimum config (4disks).

    This will help explain the differences in the raids: http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/raid5-...rformance.html

    And as a side note, its always good to have a spare drive in there in the event a drive failed it will switch over to the spare drive, and rebuild the array(if you set it up properly).
    Last edited by IamDH4; 10-24-2009 at 12:32 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmp3 View Post
    The motherboard has a feature noted

    Features 8 x 6Gbps SAS / SATA ports :
    LSI 6Gbps SAS 2008
    RAID 0, 1, 10 support

    isnt that what controls the RAID? the LSI chip thats on the motherboard /?

    ~~~
    As for the CPU / Memory .. when you say spilt up is this reffering to doing some sort of Hyper / Virtualization? ie more OS running or something?

    I dont have any plans on doing stuff like that -
    Just need IIS and going to have MYSQL on the server ...
    thats about it ..

    lol do note . my current win2k P4 3GB system is doing the hosting right now ... with almost no issues ..
    this server that is on the wish list . looks like MAJOR OMG Overkill lol
    You could certainly use the onboard RAID, but by using that you will be utilizing some of the boards resources (which is definitely ok), but 3ware make some of the best RAID cards out there, it's definitely worth buying the extra card.

    Also, when running a dual CPU setup you need to have the same amount of RAM on each cpu. This is why I recommended either 6x1gb or 6x2gb.

    And as you said this server may be a little overkill. But it will certainly be useful as you could easily host multiple websites on this server, even virtual instances if required.

    Again it's all up to your budget, if you can afford it, it's definitely worth going for that kind of setup.

  20. #20
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    Like XENnode said, The wish-list may look like major overkill now, but if you can afford it, it means less upgrades in the future, and even saving money in the long run.

  21. #21

    Question

    Can you take a look at the wish list again, I changed out the memory!

    http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/Pu...umber=12685206

    Is that memory good to go?

    "Patriot Signature 4GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) ECC Registered Server Memory Model PS34G13ER-E - Retail"

    buying 2 of them - total memory 8 GB

  22. #22
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    Also keep in mind if you use software RAID (all on-board RAID solutions are) that you will be taking some processing power away from the CPU (minimal) and that management tools may be limited. When it comes to storage you simply can't afford to just get by. Check out 3ware or Areca for some of the finest controllers out there. Areca seems to blow away 3ware cards with their Intel IOP processors.

    Just my 2c.
    =>Admo.net Managed Hosting
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmp3 View Post
    buying 2 of them - total memory 8 GB
    One thing to keep in mind with DDR3 you get better performance with triple channel ram, some boards even require it I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

    With that said you can do 4GB sticks if you wish. But if it where me I'd probably get 6x1GB sticks or 6x2GB sticks if you could afford it (again not required, but will offer better performance).

    You can checkout a benchmark of dual channel vs triple channel here: http://www.ninjalane.com/articles/ge...ple/page3.aspx
    Last edited by IamDH4; 10-24-2009 at 03:35 PM.

  24. #24
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    Correction, it looks like Newegg may not carry it. Least not in the ECC and Registered ram lineup. I'd probably buy two of these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820134944 is probably.

    At minimum I would at least get a dual channel kit. such as: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820134943

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