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  1. #1

    Namecheap: No support from "technical development team"

    I realize this is an exceptionally long post, but hopefully the parties concerned will understand why it has to be.

    **** BACKGROUND ****

    Before I get into this let me just say that I have owned and managed a number of businesses over the last 30 odd years and have consulted to numerous others. I am therefore very well aware that subordinates doing the wrong thing (or doing nothing) can ruin a business's reputation through no fault of the owner -- other than the fact that he doesn't have the necessary checks and balances in place to catch such behavior.

    For that reason, whenever I encounter problems with a company, I will attempt to bypass the person or department I'm having problems with and pass my concerns directly to management. Occasionally this reveals a rotten, inward looking, couldn't-care-less corporate culture that goes all the way to the top, but more often than not management is grateful and takes prompt action to fix my immediate problem and to address the weakness in his system. Win-win.

    But of course that consideration is only possible if the company in question publishes alternate means of contact. Now I may have missed it, and if so I apologize for the oversight, but in clicking around the Namecheap site I got the distinct impression that contact with Namecheap management was not something they wanted to make available.

    Thus I was forced to look outside Namecheap for alternate contacts and this forum is one of the places I discovered. Here it seems I can catch the attention of Namecheap representatives Richard Kirkendall (enetwork) and Matt Russell (mdrussell), possibly others as well.

    I also found a company phone number, but saw a post from someone else on this site that messages left for Mr Kirkendall were never acknowledged, so I didn't bother with that route.


    Gentlemen, do you have any idea what the satisfaction rate is for support by your "technical development team"? I'm sure you don't, because if you did, and if you are at all serious about your positions and responsibilities, you would be very disturbed indeed.

    Whatever else your development team is up to (and yes, I know what a development team does, or is supposed to be doing), what they're not doing is paying anywhere near enough attention to customer support, and thus to customer satisfaction.

    You see, after looking around at various alternatives, I decided to go with the Namecheap API for a project I'm working on.

    That is a decision I now very much regret. Not because of the API itself, or even because of the obvious holes in the sandbox implementation. My decision is regrettable because of the appalling lack of support that I have experienced.

    More often than not when I do get a reply it is so terse and so badly worded that I have to read it over and over just to figure out what the writer is saying. As any decent support person knows, if you take the trouble to explain something properly once, you avoid having to engage in a series of clarification messages traveling back-and-forward and wasting everybody's time. I read with some sympathy the comments by another of your customer's about encountering a string of Russian women barely able to speak English.

    But those are the good days. At least there is a response, even if substandard and requiring further clarification.

    Much worse, and completely unacceptable, are the times when I am forced to wait for day after unproductive day for a response that never arrives.

    If you're even remotely serious about quality of support, please track down ticket #250314. Then perhaps you can explain to me why both issues raised in the ticket continue to be ignored, and why I still have had no usable response from anyone.

    I've been around long enough that I would never discount the possibility that the technical issue I'm having problems with is entirely my own fault. It wouldn't be the first time I've missed something "obvious". But the answer, the solution, is irrelevant to this complaint. This is all about the complete absence of an acceptable level of customer service.

    Without knowing what your company structure is like I can't be sure, but I suspect that my problems lie specifically with your "technical development team", rather than your normal support channel. It seems that anything that is passed on to your "technical development team" might as well be thrown in the trash.

    To give credit where it's due, I have in the past frequently received quite satisfactory responses from Arunas, but my impression is that he is a member of your normal support team and not part of the mysterious and silent "technical development team".

    Believe me gentlemen, I'd much rather just be getting on with my project than sitting here writing this -- a time-consuming exercise I take no pleasure in. But your development team's couldn't-care-less attitude has me at a standstill.

    Anyone at all should be able to expect much better, but as someone who personally has around 50 domain names registered with Namecheap, I am particularly aggrieved. My current project will eventually involve the registration of many times that number, and means that Namecheap will be carrying my personal recommendation. Unless someone can convince me fairly quickly that that wouldn't be another big mistake, I'm going to have to start looking at alternative providers.


    I've employed the Kayako help desk software in my own or client's sites several times over the years, and have used it as a customer to contact provider sites at least hundreds of times. I don't claim to be an expert in the software, but I'm very familiar with how it's supposed to work from the end user's perspective.

    On several occasions I have notified Namecheap support that, despite having posted quite a few contact messages, whenever I login to the ticket system my ticket list is empty.

    The only way I can access an existing incident is to dig out an auto response e-mail from Namecheap and use the link associated with the instruction: "You can check the status of or reply to this Ticket online at...", such as:

    And insert the ticket number in place of xxxxxx.

    With some incident numbers that technique is successful, but with others it simply returns the message: "ERROR: You do not have access to this Ticket". And yes, I'm logged in.

    Ticket number 250314 is now five days old and, despite a priority level of Critical, all I've had back from Namecheap is buck-passing, which isn't getting me anywhere.

    On two separate occasions I have provided a screen-shot to support my complaint about the ticketing system. Neither was acknowledged.


    Yes, I can hear it now: "Who does this clown think he is, giving me lessons in 'accountability'?" That will be the attitude of some most in need of a lesson, but I'm not dissuaded.

    There is a very simple and completely free way to make your staff more accountable. It's not my idea and it's nothing new. I have implemented this myself where appropriate and introduced many of my clients to the idea, with almost all of them adopting it for positive results. It's as simple as this:

    Automatically include this footer in every e-mail:

    HELP US TO HELP YOU: If you are not completely satisfied with this response please forward this e-mail to our Customer Service Manager at [email protected].

    The way things are at the moment Namecheap support personnel can apparently operate under the impression that there is no way around them, and the consequences are very obvious to your customers.

    Again, I apologize for the length of this post, but if you have read this far I thank you for your attention,

    - Bill Hely
    - Brisbane, Australia

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2001

    I see that Mohan, our CTO, has replied since you posted this. In our defense, we had some exonarating circumstances last week in that the majority of our senior management team was at a workshop/seminar.

    If you feel that we haven't dealt with a response correctly in a helpdesk ticket, simply ask for the ticket to be escalated to management and it will be. With that said, our QA department review every single ticket submitted (and will contact managers when necessary) and management from all departments do actively participate in the helpdesk.
    Matthew Russell | Namecheap
    Twitter: @mattdrussell - hosting from a registrar DONE RIGHT!

  3. #3
    If you continue to have problems, you may wish to try

    Their support is very reponsive and knowledgeable.

    At one point, some useful information was deleted from the confirmation page. The information was the exact time of the new expiry on renewals. When this was pointed out to them, they replied with the information that the information was not always available with all tld's. After suggesting that they could map tlds to capabilities, and include it where possible, they agreed that the information should be returned to the user interface on that basis. A further email was received stating that the feature would be returned on the next release in approximatedly X days. The commitment was met in full.
    managed dns global failover and load balance (gslb)
    uptime report for

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Hello Mariner,

    This is actually an effect of our growth and was already identified as one of our major weaknesses. As Matt mentioned, we all met together this last week, along with a team of independent consultants, to help us analyze all our perceived weaknesses and brainstorm together how we can improve and streamline the way we operate.

    Our CTO as well our top developers that are in charge of the API were present there as well. This is why we experienced delays with support on that end this last week. I personally had to make the decision to attack this now before things got worse and being without our top managers and developers during this time was one of the sacrifices we had to make.

    The above being said, I feel we made enormous strides during the sessions and came away with some great plans to tackle our deficiencies and growth issues. I'm confident to say all our clients will start seeing the fruits of this by way we better operate and handle support in the near future.

    I do sincerely apologize for the inconvenience this all has caused you.
    Richard Kirkendall

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    .... and just to put our money were our mouth is, you can see a few pictures of our workshop at
    Matthew Russell | Namecheap
    Twitter: @mattdrussell - hosting from a registrar DONE RIGHT!

  6. #6
    > I see that Mohan, our CTO, has replied since you posted this.

    He did, but we all know the only reason that reply eventuated was because I went public on this forum and one of you two initiated some action.

    All I really got out of his response was an acknowledgment of another undocumented problem with the sandbox, and that a fix "may take some time". But at least now I know, and I can stop wasting time wondering if it's me and my code and pointlessly trying one thing after another. When it comes to preventing a sheer waste of time, bad news is far more preferable to no response at all. It's the news I should have had five days earlier.

    Now pardon my frankness, but it seems to me that you guys are focusing on excuses instead of acknowledging and fixing problems.

    A meeting of "senior management team" doesn't explain five days without a response, nor does it sustain your claim to oversight by the QA department of "every single ticket submitted". What on earth has the absence of the senior management team at a workshop/seminar got to do with a high priority request being ignored for day after day? Will your employees not do the job they're paid to do unless they're monitored round-the-clock by managers?

    And the suggestion to "ask for the ticket to be escalated to management" is no solution at all. If day after day I'm receiving no response to a high priority request, why on earth would I assume that anyone has even read the ticket? Without an alternative e-mail address for escalation - one that is independent of the support people - such advice is worthless. And it's even less of a justification when there is no indication that such an option exists. I gave you a simple, cheap yet very effective solution in my original post above, but it takes top management to mandate the change and make front-line support people publicly accountable for their actions. And then it needs to be backed up by a QA manager who simply will not accept second best from employees who interact with your customers. Anything less is an abrogation of your responsibilities to your customer base.

    In light of my experience, the claim that "management from all departments do actively participate in the helpdesk" would tend to indicate that the rot goes much further than just the front-line support people.

    And finally, despite the fact that your senior management team is back from their seminar/workshop and QA oversight of "every single ticket submitted" is in place, I still haven't had a single response to my report of problems with your help desk software that renders it all but useless. A report that I have posted in more than one ticket and that I have backed up with screen-shots on two separate occasions.

    - Bill Hely
    - Brisbane, Australia

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mariner-1 View Post
    >...we all know the only reason that reply eventuated was because I went public on this forum and one of you two initiated some action.
    And to add further weight to that claim, within hours of my most recent post above, I received a message from "Tatyana B" advising that the Help Desk problem had been fixed, which it appears it has. Coincidence? I think not.

    Surely you must be extremely concerned that there are occasions when the only way your customers can get a satisfactory resolution is to expose your dirty laundry in public, a record that will persist for years into the future.

    Frankly guys, in your position, and once alerted to the problem, I wouldn't be able to sleep until my customer support and satisfaction was world-class.

    But hey, that's just me. What would I know? If you want to become your support forum I'm sure there are plenty of people who will welcome the entertainment.

    - Bill Hely
    - Brisbane, Australia

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2002

    We've already tried to help you. Seems like your posting just for the sake of confrontation now. Maybe you should move ahead with another company. This will be my last reply here. I apologize that things didn't work out with our company. Good luck to you.
    Last edited by enetwork; 10-25-2009 at 10:58 AM.
    Richard Kirkendall

  9. #9
    Mr Kirkendall,

    Contrary to the introspective and unprofessional perspective you have just expressed, not everybody who voices a criticism has an ulterior motive, or is out to damage you in some way.

    In fact it started out quite the opposite -- I wanted several glaring problems fixed FOR MY OWN BENEFIT. Which any reasonable person would realize would be to your benefit also.

    Responsible management welcomes problem reports, for the obvious reason that it gives them an opportunity to redress shortcomings in their service channel.

    The real fear of top-flight professional managers is not complaints. What they really fear is that dissatisfied customers will simply go away, leaving no clue as to the reason, and so the problem persists un-addressed. Those same managers will be well aware that those unhappy departing customers will be all too ready to tell their story to friends and associates. Not the most desirable type of viral advertising!

    Those few of us who do take the trouble to try to get a problem redressed do so because we don't WANT to simply go elsewhere! We want the problem fixed, so we can continue to use whatever service it is in a way that meets reasonable expectations.

    I am not a host or Registrar, I don't have a personal relationship with any, and I have no interest in promoting any others over Namecheap.

    Nor do I relish the idea of having to move 50-odd domain names, and all the extra time wasting that goes with it. However, that's something I now have to give serious consideration to; not because of the problems, which have been partially addressed, but because of the management attitude you have demonstrated.

    I have no doubt that every impartial observer here has formed the opinion that you're not too amenable to learning from mistakes. By your own statement it's clear you'd much prefer that customers like me, those who will persistently seek redress for an ongoing problem, would just go away.

    > Seems like your posting just for the sake of confrontation now.

    Each of my posts has raised a new fact or reported a new development. I challenge you to demonstrate how anything I've said - anything at all - is a fabrication or an exaggeration.

    This conversation is ONLY out in the open because persistently un-addressed failures by your staff and in your support system forced it there. I was left with no alternative but to seek you out in a public place.

    And you're not doing yourself or your company any favors by attempting to make me out to be the bad guy.

    - Bill Hely
    - Brisbane, Australia

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Internet Tech
    sorry people,

    i customers with namecheap not premium only have 5 domain name there, and use also another product not only domain name, just chat with support team to day, ask a view problem and so far good result and never find any problem at all.

    iam not really know what the problem is, if really critical try to chat or make a phone call with all valid personal information you have.

    hope this help

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    I have to agree with Bill, the reaction of Richard was very unprofessional and not expected at all.
    I have 46 domains registered through namecheap at this moment. If we are were meant to "move ahead with another company", I dont know namecheap will their salaries.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by xeno007 View Post
    I have to agree with Bill, the reaction of Richard was very unprofessional and not expected at all.
    I have 46 domains registered through namecheap at this moment. If we are were meant to "move ahead with another company", I dont know namecheap will their salaries.
    well, I can understand Richard's reaction to some extend - while the whole team was already working on the problem of topic starter, he kept on posting his complaints here. From own experience i can say that a ticket opened is always enough to have your issue resolved and blackmailing the company using this forum is not fair. it seems that attention for topic starter is more important than a fixed problem.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Hong Kong
    I have over 100 domains with Namecheap and have always received fabulous support from them over the last two years. Although we use other registrars for some other domains we use, when it is a critical domain we always use Namecheap. I think we should give them a break nobody is perfect, they are already doing very well. | HostGamma Europe | HostGamma Asia
    USA, Canada, Brazil, UK, Netherlands, HK, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Singapore and more

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mariner-1 View Post
    I have no doubt that every impartial observer here has formed the opinion that you're not too amenable to learning from mistakes.
    I'm an impartial observer, but my opinion isn't that NameCheap isn't too amenable to learning from their mistakes. You ought to see their previous posts on other issues.

    Naturally, people can opine and/or feel whatever they see fit. But how NameCheap chooses to approach this, or learn from it, is solely up to them to decide.

    I once learned a saying that goes something like this: the customer is always right...

    ...until you draw the line.

    Apparently NameCheap decided to draw the line, rather than continue on and possibly...possibly...not be able to meet your expectations. It doesn't help anyone to maintain a relationship like that.

    I too wish you good luck and hope you find a registrar who can meet what you expect.

  15. #15
    Here's an update for those posters who have seen fit to jump in and express opinions, either without knowing the full facts or ignoring facts already stated.

    Your personal experience with Namecheap support is completely irrelevant. If even the occasional person feels they have been treated like crap then the company has failed in its customer satisfaction responsibilities.

    As anyone who knows how these systems work would be aware, the quality of support is dictated by management policy and oversight.

    In any organization the quality of response from individual support people can vary widely, ranging from excellent to useless. Policy dictates WHAT they should be doing and oversight ensures that IT IS DONE. Without oversight (and appropriate training) no amount of well-meaning policy is going to ensure desirable results at the coalface.

    Now I need to make something clear...

    The "support people" that most of you encounter are NOT the crowd I'm talking about, as I made clear in my opening post of this thread:

    To give credit where it's due, I have in the past frequently received quite satisfactory responses from Arunas, but my impression is that he is a member of your normal support team and not part of the mysterious and silent "technical development team".

    We're talking API here and it seems that, for the most part, the regular support people won't touch it. That's perfectly OK with me. If they don't have the necessary knowledge of a specific topic, then it should be passed on to those that do. But unfortunately that's when things become nasty. As I said in a message to another Namecheap representatives:

    ...your regular Namecheap support seems to be reasonable. But in my very unsatisfactory experience the moment those people pass an API query onto the "technical development team", it might as well have been thrown in the trash.

    There's nothing to argue about there -- it's just a simple statement of the facts of my personal experience. If yours has been different then I'm pleased for you, but whatever your experience may be, it in no way negates mine.

    Although it often seems to drag on for days, I have in the past had resolutions from the technical development team. I have also had replies that were practically incomprehensible due to poor language skills, and other occasions (the topic of this thread) where there was simply no reply at all.

    On technical/development topics there is always the chance that investigations need to be carried out before a useful reply can be formulated. This is particularly applicable in the case of the Namecheap API, which apparently isn't being developed in-house, so there seems to be a communication chain that goes something like this:

    Customer --> Namecheap Support --> Technical Development Team --> External Developers.

    Maybe things are breaking down at the final stage, but there is NEVER any excuse for not replying, not updating, leaving the customer in limbo not knowing whether his request is even receiving attention. That's the responsibility of Namecheap, not of the contract developers.

    The normal support people did fall down on the handling of one problem recently, which involved my not being able to call up a list of my support tickets. That went on and on (being ignored, that is) until I'd posted here and pressed the point again. I have no reason to believe that it would be fixed now had I just kept the issue "in house". I first reported that problem on October 13, and it was eventually fixed on October 23, but not before they repeatedly ignored it and tried to close the ticket without the matter being resolved.

    However, although it shouldn't happen, I can write off isolated incidents like that to having struck the wrong person on the wrong day. For the most part my interaction with the normal Namecheap support has been satisfactory.

    What really concerns me most now is management's "like it or lump it" attitude to those viewed as "difficult" customers. Quality of service has to be driven from the top down; it will NEVER eventuate from the bottom up.

    And if any of you observers believe that expecting a reply to a support request is unreasonable, then I guess you can classify me as a difficult customer.

    I hope that clarifies matters for those of you who seem to have missed my original point.

    - Bill Hely
    - Brisbane, Australia

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2004

    First off I personally do not appreciate you stating "Your personal experience with Namecheap support is completely irrelevant." By posting this thread you open up a negative light on Namecheap and some people may wish to defend Namecheap or express their opinion to defend you.

    Second, I've been with Namecheap for quite some and have exhausted nearly every feature available. They've been outstanding with not only their service but especially the support they provide. If my personal experience with them in that light doesn't matter, then your experience means nothing as well.

    Third if the problem you are experiencing can not be handled by first level agents you should naturally expect longer-than-normal wait times for your problem to be resolved. Therefore sure, you are a "difficult customer". While I am not endorsing the wait time you experienced with their support, I'm disagreeing with the extent you are taking this matter to.

    Simply put, Bill: your problem has been resolved and you experienced some unfortunate delay in support. It happens all of the time with a lot of companies. If you are not happy with the service that Namecheap provides, then find a solution that fits your needs with another provider. People on these forums care about your opinion and the experiences you have with hosting-related companies but not to the extent you've taken this matter to.


    To those reading this thread unsure about Namecheap: I've had nothing but positive experiences with Namecheap. If I get disconnected during a Live Chat or phone session I immediately get an e-mail to try to get back in touch. They've helped me with the many domain names I own on countless levels. If you want to hear more about my experiences with them feel free to contact me, but at this point I'm leaving this thread with this statement: Bill is taking this to a point beyond reason and in all honesty this thread should be closed as it is rambling nonsense about a poor experience.

    Ryan Barr

  17. #17
    Well Ryan, I've been 100% honest and forthright so far, so I'm not about to back off now, whether I'm getting up a few noses or not.

    Frankly, I don't care what you appreciate or don't appreciate. I didn't come here looking for approbation or with the intent of castigating Namecheap.

    As I've made abundantly clear repeatedly...

    [ Do I really have to keep making these same points over and over? Am I speaking in tongues? Unintelligible? ]

    ...I only came here because this is where I found some senior management of Namecheap that I thought I would be able to communicate my problems to, having completely failed REPEATEDLY to get any satisfaction through the only other channel available.

    Had there been advertised on the Namecheap website some way for me to escalate my concerns to management, I probably would never have even found this site.

    The experiences of others is only of the most academic interest to me -- my concern is getting my own problems resolved. And whether or not my experience "means nothing as well" to you, is also completely irrelevant. You are not in a position to do anything for me.

    You have conveniently ignored most of the facts I've presented and pretty much all of the qualifications.

    For example, you make no reference to any experience with the so-called "technical development team", which apparently handles the API and seems to be at the heart of most of my problems.

    You conveniently ignore the fact that I have specifically stated that I have no real problem with the normal Namecheap support channel.

    You are attempting to suggest that being repeatedly ignored for days on end is just an acceptable consequence of asking for support on a technical topic. I already said that delays may be acceptable under some circumstances, but zero-response/no-updates for days on end is not. How do I know I'm not waiting on a response to a message that no one has even read?

    You also try to make it sound as if just striking my tent and moving on to another provider is a trivial matter. That makes me wonder if you have any idea at all just what API development is all about, let alone the cost and time involved in moving a large number of domains. Yes, I know you describe yourself as a "developer", but that doesn't necessarily mean you have had any experience with the API or its "technical development team". Complex site development using the API isn't exactly rocket science, but it is time-consuming, especially given the paucity of documentation and application notes.

    Since I already have a considerable time investment in this development, I'd much rather just see the shortcomings addressed. But Mr Kirkendall's rather unfortunate expression of disinterest doesn't leave me with a lot of hope that that will happen.

    And thank you for the wake-up call regarding my "rambling nonsense". I'll try to be more logical and articulate in the future. But might I say that if it wasn't for people like you jumping in to defend the indefensible this conversation would be long over. Absolutely nothing you can say, do or wish for is going to change the FACTS of my experience, which I can document in detail, chapter and verse, post-by post, from day one. I don't need to make unsubstantiated accusations, because I can substantiate every single claim.

    Oh, and if it's an admission you're after then, yes, by coming here and getting the attention of Mr Kirkendall and Mr Russell, suddenly support people started getting back to me, and my immediate problems were eventually addressed. Goal achieved.

    - Bill Hely
    - Brisbane, Australia

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2004

    I do know and understand the circumstances you are in, but that is beside the point. You are repeating yourself in clear and understandable English, however you aren't noticing this:

    • You came here looking to get results as the methods you attempted to use before weren't sufficient.
    • You received the results you were looking for after some explaining.
    • You received user feedback about your experience as well as the Namecheap service.
    • You continued your topic with the same points as if people are saying you are wrong in your actions, while people were just stating opinion related to the matter.

    Notice the last point; you are on Web Hosting Talk, the number one forum for web hosting related discussion (including domain names). I add emphasis to forum because they are used to discuss matters. You make it seem as though you were hoping only for solutions from Namecheap and not opinions from outsiders as well. When you post here, you're almost guaranteed opinions from others.

    Your points are clear, that is no doubt. Your experience with Namecheap, clearly, has been poor and you express and defend that well. However I posted due to the fact you were saying that other's opinions were irrelevant and with that I reiterate: you are on a very popular forum, they are going to be given and the opinions given in this thread are indeed relevant.

    While I don't expect, plan, or intend to speak on Namecheap's behalf: I'm sure they are very sorry for the problems you faced both with the API and their poor support in this case, however they tried handling it to the best of their ability and you continued on causing them to say that if you can't find satisfaction with their services to find another provider -- no matter how difficult or time consuming it may be for you to switch.

    There is nothing more to be said here Bill other than you've made your argument very clear and people agree with you that the support you received was poor. You've continued on dragging this into a thread of, as I've said before, "rambling nonsense".

    Now, I do believe I can speak on behalf of Web Hosting Talk when I say we would appreciate it if you considered becoming a regular part of the community and continued to provide your structured opinions about web hosting and related services. You are an intelligent person who can make a good argument. Unfortunately this thread may not have been the best of starts, but I'm sure everyone can look past that.

    Best and Warmest Regards,
    Ryan Barr

  19. #19
    Ryan, there are a few points that we'll just have to agree to disagree on.

    However, for the most part, point taken.

    The only bee that's still buzzing around in my head is Mr Kirkendall's rather unfortunate (apparent) position, which doesn't inspire in me a lot of hope that I won't see the whole experience repeated. But... maybe he was having a bad day, maybe he just expressed himself poorly or maybe I read him the wrong way. One can only hope.

    As an indication that I'm prepared to let future experiences speak for themselves, I am currently attempting to work with someone at Namecheap by providing feedback to them on technical problems I encounter with the API.

    Whether that works out for the best or not, only time will tell. If it does, I'll be the first back here to give credit where it's due.

    - Bill Hely
    - Brisbane, Australia

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