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  1. #1

    Are you also getting disappointed with offers like that?

    I just had an experience - nice offer per Mb/s - looks great on the surface (in offering section of WHT). Then, after "digging" I found out that that offer good on terms which are not satisfactory for me. Instead of posting sufficient info in the post, I liked the offer, had to ask questions and then found out that offer is not good for me at all, although it looked great in the first place. Waste of time. Is that the idea of having offering section at WHT - wasting time and being disappointed?
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  2. #2
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    What were the terms that you did not like?
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  3. #3
    $15 per Mb/s on the burst on 1 Gb/s port (vs $1.5 flat), minimum 3 year commit, only full 1 Gb/s port, name a few.
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  4. #4
    With prices going down very quickly, who will be signing up 3 year commit for full ports (or 10x burst rate)?
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    What type of offer are you pursuing? For colocation longer terms like that aren't that uncommon. And if that's premium bandwidth then 15/mbit is a pretty good deal.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jarrodsl View Post
    What type of offer are you pursuing? For colocation longer terms like that aren't that uncommon. And if that's premium bandwidth then 15/mbit is a pretty good deal.
    I am planning to create a "budget" network in one of our DCs (so it not a colocation ) and we are talking about HE.net - judge by yourself whether it is premium bandwidth of not.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulix View Post
    I am planning to create a "budget" network in one of our DCs (so it not a colocation ) and we are talking about HE.net - judge by yourself whether it is premium bandwidth of not.
    In all the HE advertising I've seen for those rates they're pretty clear about it. They list the different pricing for the different terms and specify the rate is only for full GigE circuits.

    There offer here in WHT seems clearly outlined, "Full Gigabit Ethernet connection in any US, Canadian or European Hurricane Electric POP for $2/Mbps with a one year contract. ($2,000/month, customer is responsible for all cross connect fees)"

    Then on the same offer they do $1.50 per Mbit/sec on a 3 year contract.

    So yes, if you want something beyond the offer they're making, how is it not unreasonable that that would entail different terms?
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulix View Post
    I am planning to create a "budget" network in one of our DCs (so it not a colocation ) and we are talking about HE.net - judge by yourself whether it is premium bandwidth of not.
    I wouldn't knock HE, they do have some good routes. Crazy number of peers to boot.

    I don't think its a bad idea for a 1G port at 1.5/M so it evens out just under 2/M still a good deal for some variety in your network. We picked up one of their 1g circuits and might pickup another. We have had no complaints with the traffic that goes out their network. Just have to engineer it a bit like everyone else.

    Hell i'd probably pick HE over cogent now a days.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulix View Post
    With prices going down very quickly, who will be signing up 3 year commit for full ports (or 10x burst rate)?
    So...

    Where and with whom have you seen these prices falling from the sky?

    Please do tell!!

    The only carrier in my neighborhood I have seen doing that is Verizon FIOS.

    Effectively 6 per Mbps flat in 25 Mbps chunks, that is counting by discounting 90% of the down speed. And by 'chunks' I mean multiple accounts 1 year contracts.

    Or I could go with direct fiber optics, for a mere $50,000 install on a good day where the telephone poles are dry and it ain't windy and the presiding 'engineer' is in a great mood.

    But that does not turn anything on! Got to hook up somewhere, well the nearest professional location's pricing adds another $3500 for an upfront install and a mere $16 per Mbps thereafte; but it is take all you dare want...

    These are NOT falling from the sky prices...
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  10. #10
    I am talking about $1.5 per Mb/s deal, not $2 per Mb/s deal - is it clear for you from the original post the terms for getting $1.5 per Mb/s?
    And then to find out $15 per Mb/s burst on a Gb/s port - it looks to me outrages (although I've seen happy folks paying $22 per Mb/s )

    Also, question to Spudstr - are you taking full Gb/s port, or paying $15 for the burst?

    I don't know about everybody else, but in carrier hotels I think prices are much more "affordable".

    Regarding $15 per Mb/s - I've dealt with top Tier 1 providers (being using Level3 (BBNPlanet/Genuity) since 1995, had MCI before along with others) - nobody is giving price like that.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavus View Post
    So...

    Where and with whom have you seen these prices falling from the sky?

    Please do tell!!

    The only carrier in my neighborhood I have seen doing that is Verizon FIOS.

    Effectively 6 per Mbps flat in 25 Mbps chunks, that is counting by discounting 90% of the down speed. And by 'chunks' I mean multiple accounts 1 year contracts.

    Or I could go with direct fiber optics, for a mere $50,000 install on a good day where the telephone poles are dry and it ain't windy and the presiding 'engineer' is in a great mood.

    But that does not turn anything on! Got to hook up somewhere, well the nearest professional location's pricing adds another $3500 for an upfront install and a mere $16 per Mbps thereafte; but it is take all you dare want...

    These are NOT falling from the sky prices...
    It looks to me like a very complex message

    Let me respond just in a much simpler way - 10 years ago full T3 - $54,000 per month

    5 years ago - $50 per mbs

    3 years ago - $20

    Now -?

    In 6 months ?

    In 12 month ?

    Take a look at the dynamics.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulix View Post
    It looks to me like a very complex message

    Let me respond just in a much simpler way - 10 years ago full T3 - $54,000 per month

    5 years ago - $50 per mbs

    3 years ago - $20

    Now -?

    In 6 months ?

    In 12 month ?

    Take a look at the dynamics.
    Um, that is a very telling description, thanks.
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  13. #13
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    I think we are going closely to the bottom already. At some point its not sustainable anymore. I expect that the current bottom ~ 1$ per mbit will be the lowest you can get for some time to come. (for dedicated bandwidth).

    Even peering does not go much deeper then $1 (cost price) and there is still a lot of infrastructure and staff costs to consider.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulix View Post
    I am talking about $1.5 per Mb/s deal, not $2 per Mb/s deal - is it clear for you from the original post the terms for getting $1.5 per Mb/s?
    And then to find out $15 per Mb/s burst on a Gb/s port - it looks to me outrages (although I've seen happy folks paying $22 per Mb/s )

    Also, question to Spudstr - are you taking full Gb/s port, or paying $15 for the burst?

    I don't know about everybody else, but in carrier hotels I think prices are much more "affordable".

    Regarding $15 per Mb/s - I've dealt with top Tier 1 providers (being using Level3 (BBNPlanet/Genuity) since 1995, had MCI before along with others) - nobody is giving price like that.

    I said we took the full gig @ 1.5/M but it works out to being just under ~ 1.7/Mish under normal network loads.

    We all know your not going to push 1gbps out if 24/7

    Heh 15/M? i know companies like mzima/pccw/etc that are still charging 50/M on sub 10/Mbps commits.

    i'm not going to get into another oh my god bandwidth prices are falling thread but i don't see financially prices remaining under 2/M without sevear network overselling or degregation on ther1's. Network hardware/costs involved would not justify the price. I guess thats why all the tier1's are still ohoino. 4+ on 10G?
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by swiftnoc View Post
    I think we are going closely to the bottom already. At some point its not sustainable anymore. I expect that the current bottom ~ 1$ per mbit will be the lowest you can get for some time to come. (for dedicated bandwidth).

    Even peering does not go much deeper then $1 (cost price) and there is still a lot of infrastructure and staff costs to consider.
    Your post kind of makes sense - I would love to agree with - kind of feel that way, but on another side it is technology - very difficult to talk about "bottom" here - just drop more powerful network gear (not a problem) and bigger pipes (not a problem).

    If you'll take a look just from psychological point of view, instead of price per Mb/s, you'll look at Mb/s per dollar - it may be easier to realize that you will be able to push more and more Mb/s "per dollar".
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulix View Post
    I am talking about $1.5 per Mb/s deal, not $2 per Mb/s deal - is it clear for you from the original post the terms for getting $1.5 per Mb/s?
    And then to find out $15 per Mb/s burst on a Gb/s port - it looks to me outrages (although I've seen happy folks paying $22 per Mb/s )

    Also, question to Spudstr - are you taking full Gb/s port, or paying $15 for the burst?

    I don't know about everybody else, but in carrier hotels I think prices are much more "affordable".

    Regarding $15 per Mb/s - I've dealt with top Tier 1 providers (being using Level3 (BBNPlanet/Genuity) since 1995, had MCI before along with others) - nobody is giving price like that.
    Yes, it is obvious that the $1.50 per Mbit/sec price is for a full Gigabit circuit, it is clearly outlined, and they specifically say that involves a 3 year term. "We do offer a 3 year term, Gigabit Ethernet connection for $1,500/month if you are an IPv6 Sage with he.net (http://ipv6.he.net) or if you run IPv6 with us over the connection."

    And none of those providers are offering you $1500 for a full gigabit circuit either...

    That is HE's model, they want to draw people in with amazingly low per Mbit/sec pricing, but on a capped or full circuit. Most of the circuits they sell are these full line speed circuits, thus to go outside there norm will cost more. Many people won't properly do the math to see what they can realistically push or will simply over-buy because of the low rate, allowing them to oversell without negatively affecting the product, and also allows them to make higher per-port revenue.
    Last edited by KarlZimmer; 10-16-2009 at 05:40 PM.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudstr View Post

    Heh 15/M? i know companies like mzima/pccw/etc that are still charging 50/M on sub 10/Mbps commits.
    So why probably, companies are trying to sell bandwidth for $15 when they see that somebody can sell for $50, but I don't know how soon they will run out of ignorant customers who will pay that much.

    Also, I don't think any large DC will have sub 10Mb/s commit - you probably are talking about colo/access customers - that's different business model.
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  18. #18
    I don't think "Fast Ethernet, Gigabit Ethernet, 10 Gigabit Ethernet, all are available for prices you would not believe, with pricing as low as $1.50/Mbps." - clearly outlines for you that 3 years and full port required to get this price, but if it does for you - I wouldn't argue with you about that

    And thank you for explaining HE model - if you'll take a look at my original post - my question was if you were disappointed with offers like that - it looks like you are not - it good for me to know, because I was and may be I shouldn't ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulix View Post
    I don't think "Fast Ethernet, Gigabit Ethernet, 10 Gigabit Ethernet, all are available for prices you would not believe, with pricing as low as $1.50/Mbps." - clearly outlines for you that 3 years and full port required to get this price, but if it does for you - I wouldn't argue with you about that

    And thank you for explaining HE model - if you'll take a look at my original post - my question was if you were disappointed with offers like that - it looks like you are not - it good for me to know, because I was and may be I shouldn't ?
    AS LOW AS, would clearly indicate there are additional terms that are not explained in the original offer or would only apply to the highest level commitments... They then clarified what some of those additional terms were as soon as it was asked about...
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer View Post
    AS LOW AS, would clearly indicate there are additional terms that are not explained in the original offer or would only apply to the highest level commitments... They then clarified what some of those additional terms were as soon as it was asked about...

    Its pretty clear their marketing worked. Thread explained
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudstr View Post
    Its pretty clear their marketing worked. Thread explained
    I wouldn't allow myself to use such marketing methods and I am not sure if that anybody who does that deserves my respect. There is a difference between marketing and marketing. You may win "this thread", but you'll loose respect and this what important for me - don't know about others...
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer View Post
    AS LOW AS, would clearly indicate there are additional terms that are not explained in the original offer or would only apply to the highest level commitments... They then clarified what some of those additional terms were as soon as it was asked about...
    I perfectly understand your opinion about this subject, but see my previous post, please...
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulix View Post
    Your post kind of makes sense - I would love to agree with - kind of feel that way, but on another side it is technology - very difficult to talk about "bottom" here - just drop more powerful network gear (not a problem) and bigger pipes (not a problem).
    Currently we are still stuck with 10 gigabit ethernet and DWDM to increase capacity per fiber. This equiptment gets cheaper (new) and more ready available in the refurb market. Any new technology, be it 40 gigabit or even 100 gigabit might need completely new chassis, routing engines and ofcourse the line cards itself.

    This will not be cheap to implement, at least not in the first 5 years.
    I do even foresee a moment where prices might go up (at the bottom) from the moment where spare capacity is sold out and there is more demand then there is cheap bandwidth on offer. I think this moment might come. It is not unrealistic.
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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by swiftnoc View Post
    Currently we are still stuck with 10 gigabit ethernet and DWDM to increase capacity per fiber. This equiptment gets cheaper (new) and more ready available in the refurb market. Any new technology, be it 40 gigabit or even 100 gigabit might need completely new chassis, routing engines and ofcourse the line cards itself.

    This will not be cheap to implement, at least not in the first 5 years.
    I do even foresee a moment where prices might go up (at the bottom) from the moment where spare capacity is sold out and there is more demand then there is cheap bandwidth on offer. I think this moment might come. It is not unrealistic.
    Price spikes could be of course, but overall there is no way, except increasing "Mb/s per dollar". It is like computer industry, you'll see some spikes in HW prices, but overall speed-storage/price ratio is growing.

    I don't want to start tech language here, but (theoretically) sup720-3bxl support 360 Gb/s (each way), Nexxys - at least twice more. Slot capacity for 65xx - 40 Gb/s, not an expert, but how expensive will be to havedual/tripple cards which will support 80/120 AND MORE Gb/s?

    As far as DWM prices, whatever was 20K before now is under 2K (for new equipment) and with DWDM you can push mush more then 16 channels per fiber pair - again, not to argue about that - too low/tech level.

    I think to argue about prices per Mb/s going down, or increasing Mb/s per dollar is the same like arguing that overall speed of computers won't grow any more (per dollar).
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulix View Post
    I think to argue about prices per Mb/s going down, or increasing Mb/s per dollar is the same like arguing that overall speed of computers won't grow any more (per dollar).
    Agree, but WHT prices are not the market prices. Say the Market price is, for example ~ 10-15$ for gigabit CDR at the moment. On WHT its 2-3$ for gigabit CDR at the moment.

    Now you say that people are clueless to buy for 10-15$ what they can also buy for 2-3$ - but i doubt that we would see 2-3$ prices here if on the other end the same companies would not sell for 10-15$ to end users. And 2-3$ per mbit are current prices you can get from a few providers only, that still seem to have surplus capacity.

    So while you are led to believe that 2-3$ is currently the going rate per megabit on a 1000 mbit commitment, the actual market looks much different. And there are still more deals out there done on 10-15$ per mbit or more.

    I do think that the actual market price will come down, but that will at the same time mean that the bottom that get advertised here goes up, as capacity decreases and general demand increases.

    If the next Ethernet step will be 40 gigabit - then indeed you can still continue to route with Cisco 65xx or equivalent. But if the next step is an interface with more capacity then 40 gigabit (100 gigabit for example) , new routing equiptment (like Cisco CSR-1) is required.
    Last edited by swiftnoc; 10-17-2009 at 03:19 AM.
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