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  1. #1
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    Man kills intruder with gun

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33251920...life?GT1=43001

    I am just waiting for him to stand side by side with the NRA saying he did nothing wrong and he would do it again because it is his right and will never give up his guns.

    Its not the first time the NRA has taken advantage of someone old.
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  2. #2
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    Accidents are going to happen, the NRA has nothing to do with accidental shootings. Surefire and Streamlight sell a lot of weapon lights for a reason.

  3. #3
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    Maybe its a well thought out defense to knock her off. Either way, was not the guns fault or the NRA (and I am not exactly a fan or enemy for them)

  4. #4
    My condolences to all those involved. A tragic accident, that intrigues.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by davidb View Post
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33251920...life?GT1=43001

    I am just waiting for him to stand side by side with the NRA saying he did nothing wrong and he would do it again because it is his right and will never give up his guns.

    Its not the first time the NRA has taken advantage of someone old.
    Whats that suppose to mean? Are people blaming General motors when they have a car accident?

    Guns don't kill. People do. I can kill someone with a pencil for that matter. If there where no guns in the world people would kill each other with sticks.

    This was an accident. I do agree some people should not have guns, some don't even know how to use one. Its exactly those people that know anything about weapons that shot them selfs or others in accidents.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PYDOT View Post
    Whats that suppose to mean? Are people blaming General motors when they have a car accident?

    Guns don't kill. People do. I can kill someone with a pencil for that matter. If there where no guns in the world people would kill each other with sticks.

    This was an accident. I do agree some people should not have guns, some don't even know how to use one. Its exactly those people that know anything about weapons that shot them selfs or others in accidents.
    You mean if he did't have a gun, he would've stab his fiancee in the chest with a knife or pencil by accident?

  7. #7
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    By the way, he needs to be charged with manslaughter at the very least.

  8. #8
    May be it was intentional, or might be an accident.

    Tell me onething, how will we know about it untill he tell himself.

    Ans why will he tell himself..

  9. #9
    This was not an accident it was negligence.

    People need to understand the difference between the two because the word "accident" is very much overused and misused.

    He should have verified that his fiancee was actually there in bed before doing anything because obviously it could have just been her walking around and it turned out to be that way unfortunately.

    That's one of the cons of having others live in your place when owning a firearm. You can't just go around shooting shadows unless you are living alone or have verified that everyone is in their beds.

    Having a light on your gun is generally a bad idea unless you live alone because to light the necessary shadowed area you would have to actually point the firearm in that direction and I doubt you want to be pointing your gun at one of your own family members.

    Having your gun in one hand and a separate light in the other is the best way to do it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by hycloud View Post
    You mean if he did't have a gun, he would've stab his fiancee in the chest with a knife or pencil by accident?
    Exactly. Stupid people make stupid things.

    Did you know you can kill someone with a credit card? Just break the plastic and you have one of the most sharpen weapons that can cut anything from side to side, even a throat...

    I know where you go with this. Its allot easier to pull the trigger right? Thats why I said not everyone should have weapons.

    By that sentence, the president of the US has a red bottom to nuke us all...

    Imagine someone else with that button.

    This was an accident probably, im just not sure of what he was so afraid of that he fired at the first thing he saw, and you should never point anything you don't know what it is.

    First identify, second point, third make decision. If you are pointing without even making a decision, then all it takes is someone to scare you to pull the trigger by a body reaction. Thats why you NEVER put the finger on the trigger. Most people see movies where they do this exactly wrong, and don't have a clue about this, the finger never, ever goes on the trigger, not even when pointing, it only goes there for firing.

    Its about education. Instead of just saying guns are evil, why don't educate people instead. To blame here the gun is just nonsense. Its someone that made a mistake and he is going to pay for it. Who knows if this was an accident anyway...
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by PYDOT View Post
    Exactly. Stupid people make stupid things.

    Did you know you can kill someone with a credit card? Just break the plastic and you have one of the most sharpen weapons that can cut anything from side to side, even a throat...
    Without a gun, the 62 year old man might accidentally killed his fiancé with a credit card?

    Very imaginative.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by geedeedee View Post
    This was not an accident it was negligence.

    People need to understand the difference between the two because the word "accident" is very much overused and misused.

    He should have verified that his fiancee was actually there in bed before doing anything because obviously it could have just been her walking around and it turned out to be that way unfortunately.

    That's one of the cons of having others live in your place when owning a firearm. You can't just go around shooting shadows unless you are living alone or have verified that everyone is in their beds.

    Having a light on your gun is generally a bad idea unless you live alone because to light the necessary shadowed area you would have to actually point the firearm in that direction and I doubt you want to be pointing your gun at one of your own family members.

    Having your gun in one hand and a separate light in the other is the best way to do it.

    That's why I said he needs to be charge with at least manslaughter.

    It's his live-in fiancé. He shoots her because he thought she was an intruder? WTF?

    I hope he doesn't have any kids, they would've all been shot dead.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by hycloud View Post
    Without a gun, the 62 year old man might accidentally killed his fiancé with a credit card?

    Very imaginative.
    Actually not. Thats something you learn in the CIA (cant remember the film right now)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PYDOT View Post
    Actually not. Thats something you learn in the CIA (cant remember the film right now)
    Why would I need a credit card when I can kill someone with my hands?


    If you are making the credit card can kill argument, maybe we should ban credit cards from airplanes?

    Either that or we allow guns on airplanes to defend against terrorists with credit cards.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hycloud View Post
    By the way, he needs to be charged with manslaughter at the very least.
    Really?

    It honestly does sound like a horrific accident.

    Keep in mind he thought she was in bed beside him the entire time...

    Odd story, indeed. Tragic more than anything though.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by hycloud View Post
    Why would I need a credit card when I can kill someone with my hands?


    If you are making the credit card can kill argument, maybe we should ban credit cards from airplanes?

    Either that or we allow guns on airplanes to defend against terrorists with credit cards.
    Thats is actually a good idea. I'm sure credit cards killed allot of people before. I wonder how many of us have a credit card debts right now.

    Guns on planes? Why not. Ambulances had guns before in some countries as they where public services.

    If you ask me we should bomb headquarters of spam operations. That should be a real surprise for them. We are always fighting spammers with the same tools, technology, computers, networks, etc. They would never expect a gift coming from the sky. How much money has spam cost the world already....sure less then a few fatmans.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mekhu View Post
    Really?

    It honestly does sound like a horrific accident.

    Keep in mind he thought she was in bed beside him the entire time...

    Odd story, indeed. Tragic more than anything though.

    Yes. It's manslaughter for negligence at least. Worst, it's murder he plan on killing the fiancé on purpose.

    You have a life-in fiancé who sleeps with you in bed. The first thing you do when you hear a sound is to grab your gun and shot at the first thing that is moving?


    Come on now.


    Owning a gun is a big responsibility. You don't just shoot at anything that is moving just because you think it's an intruder especially when you have others living with you, whether it's your wife, your fiancé, your parents, or your kids.

    Killing someone on purpose is murder.
    Killing someone by accident due to negligence is manslaughter.
    Last edited by hycloud; 10-11-2009 at 04:16 AM.

  18. #18
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    Reminds me of this thread about an intruder and what to do.

    I said make sure it's not a 12 year old girl runaway, looking for food and clothes.

    As for pro-gun owners? They say shoot first, then call 911.


    http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...t=intruder+gun


    I think the thread is about 9 months old and the response is all out of order, because of the "database hack" a few months back.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hycloud View Post
    Reminds me of this thread about an intruder and what to do.

    I said make sure it's not a 12 year old girl runaway, looking for food and clothes.

    As for pro-gun owners? They say shoot first, then call 911.


    http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...t=intruder+gun


    I think the thread is about 9 months old and the response is all out of order, because of the "database hack" a few months back.
    I don't imagine most people breaking into occupied homes are 12 year old females, it would be rather difficult for a young girl to physically break in.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by geedeedee View Post
    This was not an accident it was negligence.

    People need to understand the difference between the two because the word "accident" is very much overused and misused.

    He should have verified that his fiancee was actually there in bed before doing anything because obviously it could have just been her walking around and it turned out to be that way unfortunately.

    That's one of the cons of having others live in your place when owning a firearm. You can't just go around shooting shadows unless you are living alone or have verified that everyone is in their beds.

    Having a light on your gun is generally a bad idea unless you live alone because to light the necessary shadowed area you would have to actually point the firearm in that direction and I doubt you want to be pointing your gun at one of your own family members.

    Having your gun in one hand and a separate light in the other is the best way to do it.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by hycloud View Post
    Yes. It's manslaughter for negligence at least. Worst, it's murder he plan on killing the fiancé on purpose.

    You have a life-in fiancé who sleeps with you in bed. The first thing you do when you hear a sound is to grab your gun and shot at the first thing that is moving?


    Come on now.


    Owning a gun is a big responsibility. You don't just shoot at anything that is moving just because you think it's an intruder especially when you have others living with you, whether it's your wife, your fiancé, your parents, or your kids.

    Killing someone on purpose is murder.
    Killing someone by accident due to negligence is manslaughter.
    Fair enough.

    All I know is if I was shot dead by my wife, by accident, I don't want to see her in jail. That's two lives ruined completely instead of one.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PYDOT View Post
    Actually not. Thats something you learn in the CIA (cant remember the film right now)
    glimmer man with waynes and steven sigal(sp?), one of his last somewhat decent movies...


    How about an intelligence test to own a gun? Oh yea, no one will stand for that because its in the constitution.

    But lets think of this another way. Lets say this WAS a robbery. And he shot but missed the intruder(assuming the intruder would acutally be on the offensive unlike a fiance in her own shared house). And if that intruder had a gun and got shot at, what would his response be?

    Oh another note, if you want another interesting gun story happening long ago when it was an intruder. On holloween near a campus a FE student went to the wrong house dressed as john travolta in SNF. He was Japanese. The elderly man watching tv with his wife answered the door gun in hand, saw the startled kid(because he realized he was at the wrong house) and was shot dead. The guy got off.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidb View Post
    Oh another note, if you want another interesting gun story happening long ago when it was an intruder. On holloween near a campus a FE student went to the wrong house dressed as john travolta in SNF. He was Japanese. The elderly man watching tv with his wife answered the door gun in hand, saw the startled kid(because he realized he was at the wrong house) and was shot dead. The guy got off.
    There's more to that story, the Japanese man did not speak English. The homeowner previously had issues with local thugs. The homeowner commanded the Japanese man multiple times to go away but he continued approaching the home owner.

  24. #24
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    Did he have a life insurance policy on her.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by hycloud View Post
    Without a gun, the 62 year old man might accidentally killed his fiancé with a credit card?

    Very imaginative.
    roflmao...man says to fiance "American Express" she replies "That'll do nicely"

    slash slash slash

    I'm thinking there's a lot more to this story than meets the eye. I'm thinking it was pre meditated. Maybe she'd called off the wedding.

    I'm curious as to the outcome of the investigation. i.e....did he buy catridges for the gun lately....and how far away his fiance actually was from him before he open fired....and why didn't he switch any lights on to get a better aim or to see who it actually was.... etc

    Seems strange that if he thought she was lying in bed beside him, then how didn't he notice the bed empty when climbing out....if she was lying beside him, then he'd have noticed. Maybe it was a bed the size of a football field.

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  26. #26
    Whatever it is accident or intentional or its because of carelessness, its sad and it shouldnt! Life is very precious.
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  27. #27
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    We will only continue to see more and more cases such as these as time progresses with the current state of laws.

    The shoot first, ask questions later mentality is a terrible stat.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machen - Limestone
    My condolences to all those involved. A tragic accident, that intrigues.
    Yes and if this idiot didnt have a gun,SHE WOULD STILL BE ALIVE!!





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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mekhu View Post
    All I know is if I was shot dead by my wife, by accident, I don't want to see her in jail. That's two lives ruined completely instead of one.
    Interesting perspective. Thanks for the take on it. I had not thought of it that way before.

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  30. #30
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    Unhappy

    I'am sure he regrets what he did and will be thinking about it the rest of his life.

  31. #31
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    (This is a reply aimed at people who are pro the US weapon politics, not necessarily you in particular. I merely quoted you because it's such a typical excuse..)

    Quote Originally Posted by PYDOT View Post
    Guns don't kill. People do.
    Heh. Keep telling yourself that. While you are technically correct, as in the human usually pulling the trigger, you only have to look at the US 'murder by shooting' statistics and compare it to other countries in order to see that there's something horribly wrong with the politics behind both the availability of weapons and the mentality of the population.

    If you shot someone who broke into your house in my country, you would in 99.99% of cases go to jail. Human value is highly regarded, and merely feeling threatened does not warrant taking a life. If your life was seriously endangered (e.g. someone stabbing you with a knife), you might still very well end up with jail time for having taken a life - but reduced due to the circumstances. Taking another humans life as a civilian should be the very, very last resort - and the thought of it should be associated with consequences. Not 'I will just claim self-defence and get away with it!'.

    And please, don't give me the kind of 'but a burglar does not have any worth as a human' bull I always hear from the fanatics who carry around a weapon where ever they go, in case they might need it. You are in no position to make that judgement in the split second before you pull the trigger.

    When it comes to 'I need a weapon to protect myself' and similar phrases: please! The only reason to why you feel like that is exactly the kind of politics that's behind the high weapon availability and the whole concept of needing weapons to defend a home. If weapons were restricted to hunters only, under strict regulations like you find in many European countries, the guy breaking into your house or trying to rob you on the street would not have a gun in the first place! You wouldn't have to shoot first and ask later. He'd see you and run to avoid physical confrontation, instead of pulling a trigger.

    That my country, and most of the other European countries, have strict weapons control and/or a completely different mentality/approach to weapons (e.g. selling them as hunting tools to licensed hunters, not 'self defence weapons' to the average joe) - is why shootings are almost unheard of here, and why we can feel safe in our homes and on the street without being armed to the teeth.

    I realize this is probably going to be difficult to understand for the pro-self-defence-weapon people, and this post will probably be flamed. Before you put me down as an anti-weapon fanatic: I have target shooting as a hobby myself, licensed to own a number of firearms (through training, careful background checks including character witnesses and a looong waiting period), yet the average per year in this country between 1995 and 2002 (the numbers I could find in a hurry) was two shootings. You heard me: 2!

    The difference is that I have it in a heavy weapons safe with the bolt or firing pin removed and locked up separately - instead of having it under my pillow or in the drawer next to my bed. The path I have to take in order to use that weapon against someone - both mentally through my culture and teachings, and the physical obstacles I'd have to go through in order to do so - contribute to heavily reducing the chance of for an example shooting someone out of anger or by a mistake (such as in OP's article).

    I hope the US government will have the guts to do something about this problem in the not so distant future, instead of having organizations such as the NRA push them around through the threat of pushing votes to the opposition if they dare touch this subject.
    Last edited by Shoel; 10-13-2009 at 06:51 PM.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoel View Post
    If you shot someone who broke into your house in my country, you would in 99.99% of cases go to jail. Human value is highly regarded, and merely feeling threatened does not warrant taking a life. If your life was seriously endangered (e.g. someone stabbing you with a knife), you might still very well end up with jail time for having taken a life - but reduced due to the circumstances. Taking another humans life as a civilian should be the very, very last resort - and the thought of it should be associated with consequences. Not 'I will just claim self-defence and get away with it!'.
    In America we have a right to life, liberty, and property. Human life is and ought to be highly regarded.. but it's not always possible to ascertain the intentions of someone robbing you. Will they kill your family while they are at it? I'm not going to let that happen, if you break into my house, and I feel threatened you may very well get shot. It's not something I hope I ever experience, taking a human life is not something anyone should take lightly.. but I will protect my family, and I have a constitutional right to do so.

    What happened in this story is a tragedy, one that all gun owners should be cautious of and learn from. Responsibility is key here.. but when you take guns away from law abiding citizens only criminals are left with guns. You simply cannot legislate any society into a Utopia, you'll end up with neither security nor liberty.

    If you're country is different, and you like it that way, great.. but don't try to circumvent or denigrate our constitution.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by pphillips View Post
    In America we have a right to life, liberty, and property.
    I do not know what kind of image you have on the rest of the civilised world, but believe it or not phillips, that's precisely what we have as well. We do however not need to arm ourselves to the teeth in order to obtain or protect those values.

    Quote Originally Posted by pphillips View Post
    Human life is and ought to be highly regarded.. but it's not always possible to ascertain the intentions of someone robbing you.
    Oh right, so if some teenager breaks into your house to steal some money - you should have the right to take his life with every justification as long as he is on your precious property and seemingly threatening (making a sudden movement for an example)? I do not consider that valuing human life, and I do not see why you should get to be the judge jury and executioner just because they are intruding on your property.

    Quote Originally Posted by pphillips View Post
    Will they kill your family while they are at it? I'm not going to let that happen, if you break into my house, and I feel threatened you may very well get shot. It's not something I hope I ever experience, taking a human life is not something anyone should take lightly.. but I will protect my family, and I have a constitutional right to do so.
    To put a strong twist to that: That guy down at the hotdog stand gave you a dodgy look. Perhaps he is plotting to kill your family. Now you ain't going to let that happen, so you might as well shoot him right? Come on... A 'constitutional right' is no excuse. That mentality and the law permitting it is precisely why you have such a high rate of murders by guns, and it is the very underlying cause to why you have to have any concern of that other person shooting you over getting caught breaking into your home. He knows he'll get shot if caught, so he'll shoot first. It's a classic arms race.

    Quote Originally Posted by pphillips View Post
    What happened in this story is a tragedy, one that all gun owners should be cautious of and learn from. Responsibility is key here.. but when you take guns away from law abiding citizens only criminals are left with guns. You simply cannot legislate any society into a Utopia, you'll end up with neither security nor liberty.
    With all due respect pphillips, a law abiding citizen should not in any sense need a weapon to protect themselves. It is not so black and white that if you take away peoples guns, all the badguys will continue to use them and just go shoot everyone down. If you had a sensible weapons politics, it would be a lot more difficult for them to get a hold of weapons - and they would have a lot less reason to shoot first and ask later when confronted, let alone carry a loaded weapon at all. You would see the rate of murders by shooting drop dramatically. It's been proven so many times. Just take a look at for an example Britain, who banned weapons almost completely a little over a decade ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by pphillips View Post
    If you're country is different, and you like it that way, great.. but don't try to circumvent or denigrate our constitution.
    Yes, I do in fact like it very much. I like not risking to get shot by a burglar. I like not risking getting shot on the street. I like our near zero shooting statistics a lot. Shocking, huh?

    I do not see how I could 'circumvent' your constitution, and I am not trying to belittle it as such: but just because it is your constitution - does not mean I have to support what it says. I am, as a free human being, entitled to have my own opinion on whether or not I feel every part of it is right/sane. You have to keep in mind that the US constitution was adopted in the late 18th century, and not every literal wording in those texts may apply equally well to today's society. Although I fully understand the fundamental value of a constitution, even a constitution can be adopted over time. It is not written in stone.

  34. #34
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    Shoel,

    What country are you in exactly? You keep saying "my country" but dont tell us which one it is.

    As for the old man, it could truly be an accident on his part, but negligence as far as the law is concerned. However, if he truly loved her, there's no need for double jeopardy. His killing of her will haunt him and he will be sad the rest of his life. He doesnt need a second punishment. What needs to be determined is if it was truly unintentional. If he planned it or it happened due to an argument, he needs to be taken to prison. Either way, he needs to get rid of his gun because he evidently is not capable of the right sound mind judgement to keep it.

    As for the value of life... a criminal's life has no value when he is in my house illegally and a potential life danger to my family. If my big dogs dont get you, my bullet soon will. You on the otherhand can feel free to continue to value his life while you are tied up to watch him rape and kill your family, by all means, that is your right I suppose. However, my right is to defend my family even if your views differ from mine. Times are tough and people will go to extremes to gain even if means breaking into other homes and harming the occupants if caught. I will NOT beg an intruder to spare me or my family because I choose to be passive because I think everyone's life has value. I will however politely ask the police to come and have his limp body removed from my home.

    As for Britain... dont pay attention much do you? Despite all the gun control, gun crimes are on the rise...

  35. #35
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    Shoel,

    What you don't understand about the conservative pro-gun folks in America is that they are fearful people.

    They fear God.
    They fear Muslims.
    They fear Black people.
    They fear immigrants.
    They fear Government
    They fear for their lives.


    They feel safe with guns.


    Bombs the Iraqis and all the innocent Iraqis who get in the way. Kill them before they kill us.
    Torture anyone who might be a terrorist suspect because they might know of some ticking time bomb that can kill us all!
    Pass the Patriot Act and forget our freedoms because that'll make us safer from terrorist.
    Muslims and immigrants are scary. They must have an evil plot, so we can not allow them to be in the US.
    A Black president is scary, kinda like Obama who is a Muslim, foreign-born Nazi who is out to destroy America.




    They guy who shot his fiancé dead is more concern about his life than his love ones. The guy is fearful for his own life without concern for his fiancé who happens to live with him. He hears a sound, think it's an intruder, shoots first without even making sure it's not his fiancé who lives with him.

    Japanese guy dress as John Travolta for Halloween? Shoot him cause he is a foreigner. Japanese guy is evil.



    I don't own a gun. Is there a chance I might get rob some day? Sure, but I don't live in fear with it. Is there a chance I might get shot or rob while in public? Sure, but I don't live in fear with it.

    I don't wear a bullet-proof vest and carry a gun with me where-ever I go.


    These pro-gun conservatives have Paranoid Schizophrenia, who thinks everyone is out to get them, so they feel they need guns to make them safe. The worser the Paranoid Schizophrenia they have, the more guns and more powerful guns they feel they need.


    Having Paranoid Schizophrenia doesn't give you the right to shoot someone dead because you think the dark figure in your house might be an intruder, burglar, terrorist, or boogieman, even thought it might just happen to be your fiancé, your wife, or your kids.


    Yes, these Paranoid Schizophrenia conservatives who kill their own sons and daughters if they think there kids are possessed by demons or the devil.
    Last edited by hycloud; 10-13-2009 at 08:27 PM.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdude View Post
    Shoel,

    What country are you in exactly? You keep saying "my country" but dont tell us which one it is.
    Norway. If you were to scale up the mentioned statistical data relative to population, you guys would be having roughly 120 episodes of shooting per year. Think about that for a moment.

    Of course our situation is a result of more than just a very restrictive weapons policy and mentality in relation to weapon usage, it is also connected to a broader political and economical picture with a well functioning welfare system and so on - reducing crime over all.

    It should regardless be pretty simple for each and every one of you to understand that the mere amount of weapons present in private hands in the US, and the lack of control around it, is a very large contributing factor. If so many individuals did not have weapons, it would not be as easy for criminals to obtain them through for an example stealing them. If you are not armed, they do not have much of a reason to shoot first and ask later either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Webdude View Post
    As for the value of life... a criminal's life has no value when he is in my house illegally and a potential life danger to my family. (...)
    That's just ridiculous, and precisely what I am referring to. You are basically saying that you should shoot him because he 'could' do harm to your family, not because he is actually doing anything (besides being there) to indicate that he is there to rape you all. The biggest reason to why you feel someone breaking into your house as a threat on your life, is precisely the whole arms race of having the biggest gun and shooting first.

    In all likelihood the person is there to steal something, and if it was not for the 'threat' to the burglar's life due to this whole 'need to defend my home' mentality - that person would have no motive or interest what so ever to shoot you. That is why a person breaking into my home would be less likely to shoot or harm me as being killed by.. say lightning or a bus in a moment of distraction. That person knows I won't be pointing a gun at him, so he does not have any need to bring a gun in the first place. If he is caught, he'll run, give me a punch and run, or take the passive way and sit and wait with me till the police comes rather than risk going to jail for violence or murder.

    And for the record, before you mentioned it: a mentally ill, criminal drug addict would not have a greater chance of shooting me in my home either. Due to the restrictive weapons politics here, black marked guns are difficult to get a hold of - and much, much too expensive for someone like that to have.

    As for a criminal having no value, who are you to say that another human has no value because they have breached the perimeter of your property to steal something that is yours, for whatever reason? How does his worth as a human disappear the moment he decides to, for all you know, do a relatively petty crime?

    Reduce the amount of weapons, make sure you have a working welfare system to catch people who are unable to make a decent living for themselves, and educate people about how guns is not the solution - and something can be done about the horrible, horrible murder statistics the US have today.
    Last edited by Shoel; 10-13-2009 at 09:29 PM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoel View Post
    It should regardless be pretty simple for each and every one of you to understand that the mere amount of weapons present in private hands in the US, and the lack of control around it, is a very large contributing factor. If so many individuals did not have weapons, it would not be as easy for criminals to obtain them through for an example stealing them. If you are not armed, they do not have much of a reason to shoot first and ask later either.
    But you know what, if very basic concept such as the above is not something you guys can understand (due to cultural differences, etc) - then I suppose there's no reason what so ever to continue this discussion. I think I'll drop out of this for that reason, and live happily ever after without fearing to get raped or shot in my own home, and without having to shoot anyone on the basis of such a fear. That would be more of a perceived threat than a real one.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hycloud View Post
    Shoel,

    What you don't understand ............ blah blah blah blah blah
    I dont fear God, I respect him/her/it or whatever other entity up there that could make me miserable forever. I do however fear the government. Why? Like you said...

    Bombs the Iraqis and all the innocent Iraqis who get in the way. Kill them before they kill us.
    Torture anyone who might be a terrorist suspect because they might know of some ticking time bomb that can kill us all!
    Pass the Patriot Act and forget our freedoms because that'll make us safer from terrorist.
    Muslims and immigrants are scary. They must have an evil plot, so we can not allow them to be in the US.
    That is the government doing that, NOT the freedom loving gun owners, or others. When they decide terrorists are no longer a threat, they will then claim every person in America (or elsewhere) who doesnt see things in the same light as them is now a terrorist. Outlaw guns, and label every gun owner a terrorist.

    They guy who shot his fiancé dead is more concern about his life than his love ones. The guy is fearful for his own life without concern for his fiancé who happens to live with him.
    Really? And you know this how? A thick blanket pushed over in a roll can look like someone laying there. It can even "feel" like someone is there if you pat it, especially when you are half asleep. I know, I've done it. Got up to go get a drink only to have the crap scared out of me walking out the bedroom door to get water as the wife walks in. I guess her getting out of bed is what actually woke me. Even if I heard her, I wouldnt have thought "intruder". My dogs would be going nuts if there was an intruder.

    These pro-gun conservatives have Paranoid Schizophrenia, who thinks everyone is out to get them, so they feel they need guns to make them safe. The worser the Paranoid Schizophrenia they have, the more guns and more powerful guns they feel they need.
    There you go, keep spewing that crap you see as truth in your imaginary world. You know, I have locks on my front doors too in order to help keep out the boogie man and other baddies, I'll bet you do to. I suppose we are both skitties in that case. Oh thats right, guess you are only skitty if you have the capability to defend yourself against intruders....

    Having Paranoid Schizophrenia doesn't give you the right to shoot someone dead because you think the dark figure in your house might be an intruder, burglar, terrorist, or boogieman.
    You are right, it doesnt, but the law does.

    Yes, these Paranoid Schizophrenia conservatives who kill their own sons and daughters if they think there kids are possessed by demons or the devil.
    Oh yuck/puke Seriously, what happened in this story is extremely rare. 500 million guns in the United States.... yet there are less cars that that, but more deaths by cars than guns. I think stats speak for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoel View Post
    Norway.
    You know what, screw you
    I was hoping you would say some country with higher crime rates, but I cant complain about Norway. On the other hand, I think you have things backwards about here in the States. You make it seem bad guys have guns because good guys have guns. That is wrong. I have guns because the bad guys have guns. Problem is, it's a never ending cycle, thus we have to have guns. There are like 300 million "known" guns in the United States. You can probably quadruple that if you could count all the unknown guns. You cant remove something you dont know about, which is why it is impossible for the government to remove them. That is why we still have guns. I dont know about Norway, but in the States, the cops are there to take a report AFTER the crime, they rarely stop one.... well, they seem to have plenty of time for going after speeders... but you dont see them where crime is heavy because it is too dangerous for them.

    It's a different world over here than Norway. If I was in Norway, I wouldnt have guns because they arent needed. The bad thing about gun stats here is they dont show who was killed by a bad guy and who was defending himself. A big chunk of those stats are actually the bad guy getting what he was trying to dish out, and he lost. Dont get me wrong, I dont walk around packing, I dont wear a bullet proof vest. I do however have loaded guns within easy reach around my house. A number of years back, drug dealers moved into the area and there were a few problems, and some people were killed. At that time I only had a .22 rifle, I have much more now. I also have night time flood lights around my little acre of property, as well as motion cams that record to a server. Footage from those very cams helped put those people away and our neighborhood is peaceful again. Obviously it's not hard for them while in court to see where the footage came from. So between the guns, technology, and 5 german shepherds, two of them inside, I actually think my family is fairly safe.... and nobody has ever tried my house. But still, would I do without my guns? Never. If the lights, cameras, and dogs dont stop someone.... they arent there to give a nice hello... a gun WILL be needed. I prefer to be alive when the cops show up.

    Like I said. Totally different worlds. I'd love to live elsewhere, such as Norway, but some of us have to take the hand that is dealt to us... which is still better than many other hands I could think of... such as being a poor fly covered starving kid in Africa, etc.
    Last edited by Webdude; 10-13-2009 at 10:05 PM.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pphillips View Post
    In America we have a right to life, liberty, and property. Human life is and ought to be highly regarded.. but it's not always possible to ascertain the intentions of someone robbing you. Will they kill your family while they are at it? I'm not going to let that happen, if you break into my house, and I feel threatened you may very well get shot. It's not something I hope I ever experience, taking a human life is not something anyone should take lightly.. but I will protect my family, and I have a constitutional right to do so.
    But you cant expect that someone is going to come in and gun down your family. I mean honestly, how many times does this happen? How many times has a thief come into a house and gunned down an entire family? Does not really happen.

    You have a right to protect your family, but the law is based not on your perception but others. Thats an important thing to remember. Just because you PERCEIVE that there is a danger to your family, does not mean its ok for you to do it.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidb View Post
    But you cant expect that someone is going to come in and gun down your family. I mean honestly, how many times does this happen? How many times has a thief come into a house and gunned down an entire family? Does not really happen.
    Quite often when the bad guy is caught in the act, more often than not.

    You have a right to protect your family, but the law is based not on your perception but others. Thats an important thing to remember. Just because you PERCEIVE that there is a danger to your family, does not mean its ok for you to do it.
    In Texas, and almost any state but Washington and California, theres no "perception" about it, you have the right to protect family AND property with deadly force. You work all your life and your property is result of hard work, blood, sweat, and tears. You have a right to protect a life's worth of belongings. The only perspective the law has is that if someone is in your house illegally, it isnt for good purposes, and you are within your right to NOT guess their intentions, but stop them before their intentions come to fruit regardless what they are. A lot of people pause before shooting a bad guy because they are unsure of intentions, and end up being the dead person while the bad guy gets away.

    Some people just dont get it. If someone breaks into my house, I'm not risking my or my family's life to figure out their intentions... that little pause is what gets the home owner killed. Whether the light is on or off, the burglar can see what you see and hear what you hear. You cant tell if he has a gun, he cant tell if you do. It's better to be safe than sorry, and be the one left still standing when morning comes.

    What sucks is how many women have to look at their dead husband's faces while being raped.... all because the husband had no gun and the burglar did... or the husband "paused" to figure out the burglar's intentions and it got him killed.

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