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Thread: LiquidWeb

  1. #1
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    LiquidWeb

    I'm currently considering a host change, so I'm putting out feelers to potential candidates. As always, I'm putting on my difficult customer mask (turning down my rationality and patience module) to find out if the host can actually handle real-life customers (one of the things I find most important and that I don't want to find out once the server is already on fire). Most companies pass the test very well. Here's how LiquidWeb handles new customers:

    Quote Originally Posted by yosmc
    Hi guys,

    I'm looking to switch hosts in the next couple of months. I'd probably wait until January, but since the recent experience has been a bit bumpy with our current host, I'd like to get some basic info now so we can move more quickly if circumstances force us to do so.

    MY SITUATION: I'm a do-it-yourself webmaster who has been managing his own server for years. It's become a curse though because managing your own server means you have to be online virtually every day. I'm looking for a solution that will allow me to be offline for several weeks (a REAL vacation, something I haven't had in a decade), knowing that whatever major issue there is with my sites, someone will take action and make sure the service stays available.

    - Last year, I've switched to my first managed solution, but as it turns out, they're not doing what I need. Yesterday, for example, I came home to find my sites offline. The site was unavailable for over 40 minutes, and after asking about it I learned that they didn't take action because the server wasn't quite dead yet, only really, really, really slow. To me, this is hairsplitting, the only thing that matters is whether or not my site is available to visitors. - And once the service has been restored, I would also expect a managed host to figure out what caused the issue, and to propose a solution (or just implement one, e.g. change the mysql configuration) so that a similar issue won't happen anymore under the same circumstances.

    - If my sites are unavailable due to a fatal error (e.g. a table needing repairs, or max users reached, "can't connect" or whatever else) I would also expect my managed host to catch it on their own, restore things to normality, and possibly think of ways to keep similar issues from happening in the future.

    - If my site suffers a DOS attack, I would expect a managed host to think about how my site can be protected.

    And so on.

    - My largest database tables are 2.5 GIGs in size, but the /tmp disk my host configured has only 600 MB available, so everytime I perform a major operation (even if it's about slimming it down and running an OPTIMIZE afterwards) everything goes down the crapper (/tmp 100% full and load average shooting up to 200). Seems like the fact that /tmp is 100% full doesn't even trigger any alarms with my host, they send the alert to me, and expect me to contact them and ask for a fix. - When I needed to run a business-critical script that keept failing due to the small /tmp, it was me who reconfigured mysql so that it would temporarily use another partition for /tmp - no suggested solution from the host whatsoever. Not good at all.

    - I would also like to see a host being able to learn from past incidents. This would require the host admitting though when they made a mistake, or gave the wrong advice. A host not admitting mistakes means that they will not learn, and will therefore keep making the same mistakes all over again (for the client that's a horrible outlook).

    - I also think it's embarrassing if a host tells the client that fixing a certain issue is beyond the scope of their support, if it turns out afterwards that the issue happened because of some update done by the host. If in doubt, the host should always provide assistance.

    - And if an issue does go beyond what can be expected from managed hosting, it would be the icing on the cake if the host could offer to fix it anyway, possibly against a fee. Such a situation could occur if a major site error is due to a broken script that was provided by the client. ("Looks like your script blah.php is causing the fatal error, we can look into it but this will likely take X hours and cost you Y USD.") Again, the ultimate goal for me is to be able to be offline for several weeks at a time, knowing that any major interruptions to my sites can be resolved without me.

    - I would also appreciate a system that will allow trusted site members to report issues - i.e. one where I can give users the ability to report problems without at the same time giving them the privilege to push any red buttons that may damage my site.


    So in a nutshell I'm trying to figure out if Liquid Web is the right hosting solution for me. Please let me know if your hosting philosophy meets me needs (and don't hesitate to let me know if it doesn't ).

    Thanks!
    Greetings,

    Thank you for contacting us. Liquid Web offers Heroic Support which covers the
    hardware, OS, and installed components. We will also monitor your server, and
    if a service fails one of our reps will log into your box and restart the
    service. We do not provide support for your content (including backups). If
    you are having a problem we will help you to troubleshoot the problem, however
    if the fault is in your content or scripts we will not be able to assist you
    with that.

    For more information on what your support covers please see our website at:
    http://liquidweb.com/services/heroicsupport.html

    If you have any further questions please let us know.
    Quote Originally Posted by yosmc
    Hi,

    I hadn't written such a long email because I'm bored, but because I wanted to know where Liquid Web stands on the issues mentioned ("what would have happened in these situations if I was hosting with Liquid Web"). You have basically answered the question about fixing script problems, and for the rest sent me to a page with unspecific promotional teasers. If that's all I can get as a reply I guess that also answers my questions (I'm already Googling for alternatives) but then again maybe you just want to give it another try?

    Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by LiquidWeb
    Greetings,

    We will take care of server administration issues, we do not take care of any
    content issues. From the email you sent it sounds as if you are looking for a
    web developer that can watch over your site, and make corrections and
    adjustments as needed. This is beyond the scope of what we offer.

    If you have further questions please let us know.
    Quote Originally Posted by yosmc
    XY, right now I am just looking for someone to answer my questions. For what it's worth, I didn't draw the name "Liquid Web" out of a hat, and I had already been to your website prior to sending you my mail. Anyway, here's what I read from your responses:

    THE BAD NEWS:
    - Even if it's a one-time emergency, you are paid extra and not providing help would ruin the client's business because the client is currently in a thunderstorm in the middle of the Atlantic, it is not possible to convince Liquid Web support to fix a fatal error that may have been triggered by a programming error in one of the client's scripts.
    - Although Liquid Web's server monitoring is called "Sonar" it is - in practice - just as slow as the one I've described in my intitial mail (because if it was any better, you would have told me by now how LW would have handled the given example differently).
    - Even if all my sites are down because your staff has misconfigured mysql to break under heavier traffic, or because one of the tables crashed, Liquid Web's staff will do nothing until notified because as long as the mysql service itself is up, you don't see any reason to intervene (if this is something you'd care about and fix, I'm sure you would have let me in on it by now). - EDIT: Or wait - you guys are installing mySQL but you're not configuring/tweaking it so it actually works for the client? Not sure, seems like I actually have to *guess* on that one.
    - Liquid Web's ticket system cannot provide sub-accounts with lesser privileges (because if it could, you would have advertised it to me).
    - When Liquid Web sets up new servers, /tmp is below 1 gigabyte as well, and when this causes issues, it is definitely not Liquid Web's fault (because if you would be handling this any differently, you would have pointed it out).
    - Liquid Web has too many customers already, which is why even customers who know what they want aren't told what they can get, but instead receive links to canned information that doesn't answer their questions, along with the info that Liquid Web probably isn't for them anyway.
    - Generally you're in a hurry and can't spend more than 5 minutes on the average ticket.

    THE GOOD NEWS:
    - LiquidWeb offers DoS protection (I had missed that, but see it clearly now).

    Hope there was nothing I missed. So - thanks for all the extensive information you gave me (and sorry for using up so much of your precious time), I will make sure to honor it when I reach my decision.
    No further replies.

    Anyone know what's wrong with these people? Are they full, or do they only take on easy customers who need nothing?

  2. #2
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    It doesn't say they aren't taking new customers? It's just saying that they aren't the right host for you (their own words) because their support offered does not cover the tasks you want it to, from their understanding.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by yosmc View Post
    I'm currently considering a host change, so I'm putting out feelers to potential candidates. As always, I'm putting on my difficult customer mask (turning down my rationality and patience module) to find out if the host can actually handle real-life customers (one of the things I find most important and that I don't want to find out once the server is already on fire). Most companies pass the test very well. Here's how LiquidWeb handles new customers:










    No further replies.

    Anyone know what's wrong with these people? Are they full, or do they only take on easy customers who need nothing?

    What is your ticket number and host name?
    Travis Stoliker
    Liquid Web - Dedicated Hosting with Heroic Support
    StormOnDemand - Flexible Cloud Hosting Infrastructure
    1-800-580-4985 | Twitter: @liquidweb | @StormOnDemand

  4. #4
    ouch...I'm in the process of getting a dedicated with them.

    As I posted here:
    http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showpo...0&postcount=23

    I think their main flaw (they would gain a lot by solving) is using the same resources (i.e support staff and ticket system) for $10/m customer and $1500/m customer. They don't differentiate.

    I'm new to them but it looks like the phone support is a lot better then email or their ticket system. Over the phone, I think it's easier for them to differentiate the 14 year old kid on a $15/month account from the business person managing a company.
    Last edited by webpan; 10-09-2009 at 08:41 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by yosmc View Post
    Anyone know what's wrong with these people? Are they full, or do they only take on easy customers who need nothing?
    Yeah, looks like they don't want to deal with you and honestly, I can't say that I blame them.

    Hopefully you can find a host that fits your needs.

    Sirius
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  6. #6
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    Sorry to hear about your bad experience.

    Hope you find the right provider.

    Cheers

  7. #7
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    I suggest hiring an employee or support company, as finding a server provider to do essentially the same thing is going to be very, very costly if you can even find one that meets your standard. Seems like you're at that critically lame moment in small business...where your workload is more than you can handle, but the income isn't allowing you to hire a full time employee. Tough spot to be in.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastServ View Post
    Seems like you're at that critically lame moment in small business...where your workload is more than you can handle, but the income isn't allowing you to hire a full time employee. Tough spot to be in.
    Yep, that's pretty much it. Currently I'm simply trying to find out what managed hosting *can* do for me. Even if I'm not getting it all, I still don't think there's any other approach for this than playing with open cards. Which is of course why a reply along the lines of "go elsewhere" isn't very helpful, because that's no info I can base a decision on.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiquidWebTravis View Post
    What is your ticket number and host name?
    Thanks for the reply - PM sent.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by yosmc View Post
    Anyone know what's wrong with these people? Are they full, or do they only take on easy customers who need nothing?
    By your own admission, you were being intentionally difficult with them. You also showed us that instead of asking direct and concise questions, you sent them a long-winded essay. Even though they gave a professional answer that was to the point, you decided to badmouth them at WHT, potentially costing them lost sales. Sorry, but that's really lame.

    Read their answer again: you need a web developer to deal with your content. The DC will not and should not do this. If you can even find a DC that will do this, the deal with most certainly be bad in comparison.
    There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by webpan View Post
    ouch...I'm in the process of getting a dedicated with them.

    As I posted here:
    http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showpo...0&postcount=23

    I think their main flaw (they would gain a lot by solving) is using the same resources (i.e support staff and ticket system) for $10/m customer and $1500/m customer. They don't differentiate.

    I'm new to them but it looks like the phone support is a lot better then email or their ticket system. Over the phone, I think it's easier for them to differentiate the 14 year old kid on a $15/month account from the business person managing a company.
    That doesn't mean they can't prioritize?

  11. #11
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    When I was reading his first email my brain told me "Ok, you can stay here, but I'm leaving".

  12. #12
    Few top-end managed providers will offer application support, and that may be only for very popular web applications like WordPress. You expect everything, and in the ideal world you could actually pay a substantial amount of money and have a company help you out with all your requirements, but right now I can't think of any company that can fit your requirements, for any amount of money.

    You need to loosen the requirements or hire someone for the web side of things.
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  13. #13
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    There are companies that can handle this sort of thing, but at what I think I can safely assume would be at a cost significantly higher than what you're willing to pay (thousands per month for a fairly modest setup). You'll get a team of people assigned to your account (sysadmin, DBA, network architect, etc.) that are intimately familiar with your environment and application(s)--you're dealing with the same people day in and day out instead of the next available support tech in the ticket queue. This also requires a lot more client discipline than I typically see in small operations (the kind that's de rigueur in large companies)--you need to adhere to proper change management and version control, unit testing, etc. Any time you change your application, they'll work with you to document it, test it and validate it before putting into production. This is not the kind of service you get for a $250/mo "fully managed" server.

  14. #14
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    Your email is too long. You need to take a course on "writing for the web 101". No one reads on the web. People "scan" text on computer monitors. They don't read. So you write small paragraphs and be concise if you want them to read what you wrote.

    By the way I did read some of what you wrote in your first email. It sounds to me like you should spend on a larger more powerful server than you currently have. That should give you the additional capacity you need and prevent half the problems your having.

    BTW what is so tough about coming online once a day to check on your sites? Its a lot easier than going to work from 9-5.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Website themes View Post
    Your email is too long. You need to take a course on "writing for the web 101". No one reads on the web. People "scan" text on computer monitors. They don't read. So you write small paragraphs and be concise if you want them to read what you wrote.

    By the way I did read some of what you wrote in your first email. It sounds to me like you should spend on a larger more powerful server than you currently have. That should give you the additional capacity you need and prevent half the problems your having.

    BTW what is so tough about coming online once a day to check on your sites? Its a lot easier than going to work from 9-5.
    Quite true, but the purpose of his email was to test out the support.

    As for nearly everyone going on about "they shouldn't do application support", even the OP stated that that was the only question really ever answered... yet he had thrown out a good 5+ questions in that one email.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by yosmc View Post
    I'm currently considering a host change, so I'm putting out feelers to potential candidates. As always, I'm putting on my difficult customer mask (turning down my rationality and patience module) to find out if the host can actually handle real-life customers (one of the things I find most important and that I don't want to find out once the server is already on fire). Most companies pass the test very well. Here's how LiquidWeb handles new customers:

    ...

    No further replies.

    Anyone know what's wrong with these people? Are they full, or do they only take on easy customers who need nothing?
    Maybe they don't want customers that are more trouble than they're worth. I know I wouldn't.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirius View Post
    Yeah, looks like they don't want to deal with you and honestly, I can't say that I blame them.
    From a "server provider's" perspective, this is absolutely correct. Even a 'managed server provider' isn't going to do this for you.

    As explained previously, this doesn't mean that LiquidWeb isn't taking new customers, but that they weren't the company for you, and, quite frankly, no hosting company is. Even rackspace, with their "fanatical" support isn't going to be the right company for you, and here's why:

    Server Providers can not provide reliable 'managed servers', and you're starting to see why. A typical server provider uses ICMP (or ping) to check your ports and if they're up, that's all they look for. A proper monitoring technique is to check the response of that port and make sure it's the correct response. Examples:

    http sends out proper header codes if it's running.
    MTA's send out proper header codes if it's running.

    In addition, most 'managed server providers' won't actually monitor anything but http, so, like you said, with SQL, you're on your own.

    How to get around this? Get a decent server from a decent provider, hire a systems admin to monitor and administrate your server. More money, yes, but it allows you to take that time off that you want. Make sure that said administrator is someone you can trust to do the job, though.

    Keep in mind, as well, you're responsible for monitoring your own client's websites. Asking a server admin to keep an eye on 500 websites is just a bit much, unless you're paying them a good chunk of cash (and no, $250 is not a good chunk of cash) to do so.
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  18. #18
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    As for nearly everyone going on about "they shouldn't do application support", even the OP stated that that was the only question really ever answered... yet he had thrown out a good 5+ questions in that one email.
    Not true. There are 8 questions in total. Let us summarize:

    Introduction about situation: strong wish for application support

    Question 1: application support

    Question 2: application support (webserver, etc)

    Question 3: question about managed anti-DoS solutions

    Question 4: application support (database)

    Question 5: question about communication in case of outages/etc

    Question 6: application support (what to do if application support goes wrong)

    Question 7: application support (pre-emptive / against a fee)

    Question 8: application support (letting users trigger application support)

    So, except for questions 3 and 5, every wish that he expressed had to do with application support in one way or another. So, quite logically, the host apparently thinks "hey, this is a person who really really wants application support and we don't offer that; how about we tell him honestly that we don't offer that".

    What else do you expect them to tell you? They can't meet ~80% of your demands. Maybe this is important information, eh?

    But hey, maybe this is another one of those "tests"? Personally, I think trolls like these should leave the room with the imprint of a boot on their behind.

    Note to mods: perhaps the title of this thread can be changed so as to avoid unnecessary confusion.
    There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

  19. #19
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    If I had a customer that sent big text's/tickets like you on sales I would try to advise him not to sign-up.


    Try to be a little more straight forward you know...

  20. #20
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    So, let's continue the analysis.

    The situation: LW explained TWICE that they don't do application support, yet the OP is not pleased with the answers. Now he makes the following complaints:

    - complaint 1: LW won't fix bugs in client's programs (you're expecting programmers to fix your bugs??)

    - complaint 2: expecting specialized host monitoring (you need an alert service, particularly since the resolution is application support)

    - complaint 3: complaint that LW won't fix mysql configuration even though it doesn't support that in the first place (once again, application support)

    - complaint 4: LW doesn't offer sub-accounts (seems to be tied to question about application support)

    - complaint 5: some talk about custom partitions not being possible (huh?), probably unanswered because it was buried in a question about application support

    - complaint 6: blaming LW for not explaining clearly enough they don't do application support

    - complaint 7: their answers are actually concise and to the point

    - observation: question no. 3 got answered by looking at their site

    Exactly what kind of response do you expect from them? You keep insisting you want application support from them, they keep telling you they don't offer it.

    At some point, they are rightly going to decide you're a troll (which, by your own admission, you are) and stop responding. This is not a matter of picking "easy" customers, it's a matter of picking sane ones.
    There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by webpan View Post
    I think their main flaw (they would gain a lot by solving) is using the same resources (i.e support staff and ticket system) for $10/m customer and $1500/m customer. They don't differentiate.
    Excuse me.. Every client deserves equal treatment.

  22. #22
    Talence, in my opinion you are way off base.
    All managed solutions include some level of "application support" so you can't just categorize that into its own thing and disregard it.
    Managed hosting can mean logging into the server and fixing Apache problems, or updating Wordpress and whatever have you.

    The OP may have some really strict requirements, but I can't blame the guy for asking, even though he was a bit obnoxious in the way he asked.
    There's a difference between a webmasters job and managed tech support, and that difference lies more in that tech support attends to proper running of services/daemons, more so than bug hunting in a php script like a webmaster does.

    The OP may have confused some of the issues, but not all.
    In fact he should get both managed solution AND a dedicated webmaster/server admin, and this will make sure every facet of his server is online and working.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by coax View Post
    Talence, in my opinion you are way off base.
    All managed solutions include some level of "application support" so you can't just categorize that into its own thing and disregard it.
    Managed hosting can mean logging into the server and fixing Apache problems, or updating Wordpress and whatever have you.
    No, Talence is correct. Application support for most dedicated providers is usually limited to:

    "Is apache running? Yes? Is MySQL running? Yes? I think we're done here."

    It doesn't mean "verify that MySQL is optimized for some off-the-wall 3rd party software application that the hosting provider has never seen or heard of, especially if it is some application that they specifically stated that they don't support."

    Also, Wordpress falls under the umbrella of 3rd party software, i.e., not installed or provided by the hosting company and not required for the server to be considered online. Even though *you* may consider it required for your site to be functional, the provider is only concerned about the base system (OS + hardware), not your content. You have to pay extra to find someone who will be concerned about your content. (A hosting provider's only concern is that they don't damage or delete it.) Therefore, Wordpress normally falls under the "unsupported" column. The most a provider *might* do is fix a small issue (e.g., ownership or permissions on a file), but upgrading Wordpress is a non-trivial process that could end up destroying your site if it isn't done properly and something goes wrong.

    You have to understand, when a dedicated provider has hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of servers to manage, they can't provide each server owner with that highly specific, deeply involved level of support (at least, not cheaply).

    Quote Originally Posted by coax View Post
    The OP may have some really strict requirements, but I can't blame the guy for asking, even though he was a bit obnoxious in the way he asked.
    The problem is that he asked for some services that can only be provided by someone who spends all their time studying the layout and configuration of his server. That person must know nearly everything about every web site and script that has been installed on that server. Otherwise, someone coming in on the tail end of things may or may not know how things are supposed to be working, what server loads are normal, what disk usage is normal, what processes need to be running, what is scheduled in cron, what management tools are already installed, etc. That is the kind of involvement that most (if not all) dedicated providers cannot provide. And then he decided to have an attitude about the entire issue causing negative press for a company that has not done anything wrong.

  24. #24
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    I think its harsh bad mouthing them here at WHT. According to your snotty emails
    I hadn't written such a long email because I'm bored
    its like you want them to bend down and kiss your feet. And now because they didn't kiss your feet you tarnish their reputation by making a pointless post. Just remember one thing: They don't owe you anything.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by yosmc
    So in a nutshell I'm trying to figure out if Liquid Web is the right hosting solution for me. Please let me know if your hosting philosophy meets me needs (and don't hesitate to let me know if it doesn't ).
    I think they might have been better off saying "No, it doesn't".

    You send them a wall of text and then come to WHT saying they're not accepting new customers, simply because you didn't get an essay back?

    Long messages are very hard to follow, especially when they get unprofessional (I would have stopped reading at "everything goes down the crapper")

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