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  1. #26
    Whether automatic bandwidth-related emails were sent to the unmanaged customer or not is completely irrelevant. The issue is also not about keeping scripts updated, or who's responsibility that is. Managing a server means handling and dealing with issues, and $1,600 of wasted bandwidth is an indication that an issue was not dealt with in a timely manner. That doesn't even remotely qualify as "managed", in my opinion.
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  2. #27
    er, "whose responsibility"
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  3. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Sacramento CA
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    3,513
    I'm sorry Daku but while I do see where you are coming from most of your arguments just don't add up (especially the one about "simple users"). As an adult you have to do your own research and decisions. Just b/c your a simple person doesn't mean that somebody is going to stop you from buying that motorcycle and creaming yourself all over the street.

    It is your responsibility to to understand the expectations for yourself and your host. FH is offering a service and you need to educate yourself about what they (or any other host offers) and understand your liabilities.

    Your one solid point is about the bandwidth monitoring. It does make sense to have a hard cap which would stop your bandwidth abuse (or any other resource really). I've always found it to be very funny how SOME hosts will monitor the heck out of your CPU and RAM. They have clear rules about when they will shut you down if you are abusing the nodes CPU/RAM. Bandwidth....errr... not so much and of course that's the one that you can get get charged with.

    Use this as a learning opportunity, make sure you know what your hosts policy are for overages (and of course keep your scripts updated). I wish more people would take this type of policy into their decision making process. Unfortunately most people just look for the cheapest price (and I'm not saying you did, just in general). Anyway /rant off.
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  4. #29
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    NL
    Posts
    35
    I agree with Daku, i would not pay for the bill. I think that if you used the bandwidth then sure pay it, but i do not think it is your fault. If someone uses your credit card without your permission, your credit card company protects you. I think this is the same thing. If someone abused his bandwidth (or credit card) then he should be exempt of all costs associated with it.
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  5. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    282
    I was charged once by theplanet, overused 1700 gigs, and paid $425.
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  6. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    42
    Quote Originally Posted by jpetersen View Post
    Whether automatic bandwidth-related emails were sent to the unmanaged customer or not is completely irrelevant. The issue is also not about keeping scripts updated, or who's responsibility that is. Managing a server means handling and dealing with issues, and $1,600 of wasted bandwidth is an indication that an issue was not dealt with in a timely manner. That doesn't even remotely qualify as "managed", in my opinion.
    Just what I was thinking. Sure they don't manage the scripts that he has on the server, but on the other hand, if you see that this server is pushing 10+ mbits of data (outbound, not in!) I would expect a managed provider to at least run a netstat and find out if the traffic coming out of the VPS is legit. A simple command such as "netstat | grep :" would have shown what I'm sure would be more than 150+ connections to a server on port 80, which is DEFINITELY not right.

    Now I'm not saying they should have fixed the issue (hacked script) for him, but as a managed provider you're expected to be proactive, especially since your customers may not be that good with Linux / VPS in general. Part of me thinks that Daku shouldn't pay the bill because they should have caught something like this if they actually had admins watching their servers, but on the other hand, if you had used up to date scripts, this wouldn't have been an issue in the first place. I would say you go ahead and pay the invoice since they have given a discount, and just let this be a lesson learned.
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  7. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    131
    Future hosting are telling me that there was an account using outdated script. I dont even know if there was a script running on that site or how true is that?

    Not even a single time have I said that if there was an outdated script, they should have updated it. My point is that if they noticed something so unusual, why didnt they just shut it down and let me investigate? Letting it go and then trying to charge me, this just sounds con to me or money making scheme!

    They stop the VPS immediately where is a slight increase in CPU or ram then why not on bandwidth? I am sure that the bandwidth wasn't used in just one single day, so what sort of monitoring are they doing to their servers?

    Lesson learnt for me surely but it should be a lesson for them as well. I've offered them to pay something but it appears they have made up their mind!
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  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Daku View Post
    I am very clear on third party scripts. The server is managed that means if something goes wrong with the server than it is your responsibility to fix it for me.

    If a server suddenly becomes very extensive bandwidth hungry then it will be obvious for expert people that there is something not right with the server. Why on earth would I pay you extra for managed server otherwise?
    This is not how managed services work. If *you* install software that gets compromised, it is *your* responsibility. You can't do whatever you want on a system and then expect someone else to clean up the mess. I think the post above was clear, they manage what was installed on the system when it was delivered, and then any changes you make are your responsibility.

    If you're looking for them to be responsible for everything, then you're also looking for a system where you have zero access (so you can't screw it up). These exist, I have a couple clients on them. The client has no access to anything, I manage everything for them. In this case, I can understand if something goes wrong, it is *my* responsibility alone.

    Does not sound like your system was set up this way.
    Garry Dolley @ ARP Networks | gdolley _at_ arpnetworks . com | #arpnetworks on Freenode | @arpnetworks, @bsdvps
    State of the art services, strong community and friendly support
    FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Linux VPS ARP Metal™ Dedicated Servers Colocation IP Transit
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  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by offshorehostingnl View Post
    I agree with Daku, i would not pay for the bill. I think that if you used the bandwidth then sure pay it, but i do not think it is your fault. If someone uses your credit card without your permission, your credit card company protects you. I think this is the same thing. If someone abused his bandwidth (or credit card) then he should be exempt of all costs associated with it.
    Are you serious? Most hosts are not huge companies like banks and can't afford to just "eat the bandwidth" cost of an irresponsible customer / script / whatever. If Daku had not been a customer, his script(s) would not have been compromised, and the bandwidth would not have been used. It's his responsibility to pay for the bandwidth used by his scripts, not the host just to eat it.
    Garry Dolley @ ARP Networks | gdolley _at_ arpnetworks . com | #arpnetworks on Freenode | @arpnetworks, @bsdvps
    State of the art services, strong community and friendly support
    FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Linux VPS ARP Metal™ Dedicated Servers Colocation IP Transit
    Native IPv6 VNC Console Tunnel VNC over SSH Serial Console over SSH DNS Manager
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  10. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    665
    1. We did notify the customer there was outbound traffic via a ticket when he was pushing 80mbps outbound - we DO monitor traffic spikes and we do notify customers. There are times we have customers who legitimately are using a large amount of bandwidth. It is particularly common for our customers running services like shoutcast.

    2. Our systems send automated e-mails notifying customers they are approaching their bandwidth limit (at 80%) and when they have reached their limit (100%). We verified these messages were sent to the customer.

    3. Upon him telling us the traffic was not legitimate, we began assisting him with the problem. We found the issue and notified him of what it was and what needed to be done to correct it.

    4. As far as fraudulent charges on a credit card vs. bandwidth usage. There is a fundamental difference. With a credit card, your card holder agreement (contract) affords you the protection of not being held liable for the bandwidth fees. With virtually all hosting provider terms of service, you are liable for your bandwidth usage.

    4. We have several customers who use their allocated bandwidth every month and they turn off their VPS upon reaching that limit so they aren't billed overage. Some buy more bandwidth and some simply upgrade their package.

    Let's keep in mind, we offered the client a heavily discounted rate for the bandwidth overage as a goodwill gesture. Our cost for the bandwidth overage is significantly higher than the discounted price we were offering.
    http://www.futurehosting.com
    Managed, Unmanaged VPS, Dedicated Servers, CDN
    Available locations: Australia, Amsterdam, Detroit, London, Santa Clara, Miami
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  11. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    42
    Well with all of that said, Daku SHOULD pay the bill. Thanks Futurehost, it's always good to hear both sides of the story. I'm sure if he mentioned you guys tried to contact him about the overages / excessive usage he wouldn't have a case.
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  12. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    India
    Posts
    1,104
    In a customer view its extremely a dreadful situation to pay for the traffic that Daku has not used for his personal/business purposes.

    I knew some server resellers who reached to an extent of shutting down their business because of the bandwidth usage caused by their customers.

    FH offered discount as much as they could to retain the customer. I feel sad for Daku's situation.
    AssistanZ - Beyond Boundaries...
    Cloudstack Consultancy / 24x7 Web Hosting Support / 24x7 Server Management / Infrastructure Management Services
    Web & Mobile Apps Development / Web Designing Services / Php, Grails, Java Development
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  13. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    131
    Thanks for everyone who have given their comments.

    I dont agree with certain people but then everyone is free to express their opinion.

    I consider this to be totally illegitimate charges and wont pay any of those. This is just totally unacceptable to me that they let the bandwidth flow without shutting the system down when anyone working in this industry would have easily noticed something wrong.

    I've offered them what I can afford but they think they going through the legal route will cost them less money! I don't have any problem with that.
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  14. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by ghettoc401 View Post
    Well with all of that said, Daku SHOULD pay the bill. Thanks Futurehost, it's always good to hear both sides of the story. I'm sure if he mentioned you guys tried to contact him about the overages / excessive usage he wouldn't have a case.
    Easy to say this but consider if someone is on holiday? Are you just going to sit and think "oh lord, what should I do, let the server do whatever it's doing as I've tried contacting the guy without a response or shall I shut the thing down before it does more damage to all of us?"
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  15. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by futurehosting View Post
    Our cost for the bandwidth overage is significantly higher than the discounted price we were offering.
    Your cost of overage is higher, doesn't mean that you actually paid for this overage a lot higher and now giving me a discount on that price
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  16. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    31
    Sounds like a no-win for either side. There's no clear cut answer to it, however my best suggestion is to kill daku's server, and make him pay back in payments, with interest, for what he owes. If you do choose to arbitrate in court, I have the feeling that this is the sort of thing they might agree to.

    Still not going to help EITHER side too well but if the man doesn't have the $1600 then suing him won't get it out of him either.

    I think this is a good example of how shutting off a server when it exceeds bandwidth helps both client and hoster. Yes it is tempting for the hoster to NOT offer this so they can charge customers extra when they go a little over, thus more profits. However, you get the occasional situation like this where they get a LOT of extra bandwidth and can't pay. If the overage was like $25-30 I doubt this post would have made it here. However, daku is being asked to pay out more than a lot of people make in a month's salary.

    I'm no lawyer, but no one is winning this one. It's either waste more money on lawyer fees and cause daku to have to pay money to his attorney in addition to the $1600.

    Payments are my only suggestion as a sort of a compromise, but definitely cancel this guys account.

    My best wishes go out to all involved.
    George
    WPDaredevils.com - Not your momma's web experts!! Managed WP Hosting, SEO, development and more!
    HostNewt - World-Class Business Web Hosting. The way it should be. (Coming soon!)
    I'm always out to help anyone improve their site. Best way to start is at wpdd.xyz!
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  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by ghettoc401 View Post
    Just what I was thinking. Sure they don't manage the scripts that he has on the server, but on the other hand, if you see that this server is pushing 10+ mbits of data (outbound, not in!) I would expect a managed provider to at least run a netstat and find out if the traffic coming out of the VPS is legit. A simple command such as "netstat | grep :" would have shown what I'm sure would be more than 150+ connections to a server on port 80, which is DEFINITELY not right.

    Now I'm not saying they should have fixed the issue (hacked script) for him, but as a managed provider you're expected to be proactive, especially since your customers may not be that good with Linux / VPS in general. Part of me thinks that Daku shouldn't pay the bill because they should have caught something like this if they actually had admins watching their servers, but on the other hand, if you had used up to date scripts, this wouldn't have been an issue in the first place. I would say you go ahead and pay the invoice since they have given a discount, and just let this be a lesson learned.
    Catch a 10mbps spike? Come on, that's normal traffic for many people. Yes, even a big spike... advertising, new content put on a website, etc. It's pretty normal. Should FH have shut his VPS off and cost him potential sales or ad revenue? Lost him precious ad dollars?
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  18. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,265
    Quote Originally Posted by Daku View Post
    Script wasnt mine but was of a friend
    Pay the 25% to FH then go see your 'friend' and highlight his need to compensate you for the problem he caused.
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  19. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by grandad View Post
    Pay the 25% to FH then go see your 'friend' and highlight his need to compensate you for the problem he caused.
    Or even better, just sue your friend.
    George
    WPDaredevils.com - Not your momma's web experts!! Managed WP Hosting, SEO, development and more!
    HostNewt - World-Class Business Web Hosting. The way it should be. (Coming soon!)
    I'm always out to help anyone improve their site. Best way to start is at wpdd.xyz!
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  20. #45
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    1,708
    FH posted and said notices were sent to you and then they informed you of your server performing a DOS attack. I do not see how you weren't notified with what they posted and what you posted.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    UrNode - Virtual Solutions
    http://www.UrNode.com
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  21. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    1,182
    We always turn of the VPS's when they are using more bandwidth than what was allocated to them. This way the client cannot say they didn't get an "email" about the bandwidth abuse and have to actually tell us they want to go over for the VPS to be put back online.

    I don't think it's right for FH to allow this client to use so much bandwidth and then slap him with the fee. It was an oversight on FH, and the client. Customer Service should would waive this fee to keep the client. If this client was spiking the load of the vps server up to 50+ loads, his VPS would of been shut down by FH staff. Should of been the same way with his bandwidth...

    I just think it's a little of both to blame. Yes the client 'should' have to pay something, but if FH wants to keep him they should waive it. If he goes over again the second month then I would start imposing fees. This was simply just a innocent mistake that the client wishes it never happened. No client wants to pay $1500 for a $50/mo VPS...

    It's hard for a business to take losses like this for a client, but it only improves their appearance for other potential clients. That's if the FH did waive it and the client posted here how great they are...which never happens.
    www.opticip.com - Optic IP LLC
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  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by DMEHosting View Post
    We always turn of the VPS's when they are using more bandwidth than what was allocated to them. This way the client cannot say they didn't get an "email" about the bandwidth abuse and have to actually tell us they want to go over for the VPS to be put back online.

    I don't think it's right for FH to allow this client to use so much bandwidth and then slap him with the fee. It was an oversight on FH, and the client. Customer Service should would waive this fee to keep the client. If this client was spiking the load of the vps server up to 50+ loads, his VPS would of been shut down by FH staff. Should of been the same way with his bandwidth...

    I just think it's a little of both to blame. Yes the client 'should' have to pay something, but if FH wants to keep him they should waive it. If he goes over again the second month then I would start imposing fees. This was simply just a innocent mistake that the client wishes it never happened. No client wants to pay $1500 for a $50/mo VPS...

    It's hard for a business to take losses like this for a client, but it only improves their appearance for other potential clients. That's if the FH did waive it and the client posted here how great they are...which never happens.
    Is that policy of shutting clients off in your terms of service?

    If not, I could really easily see you getting sued.

    If I signed up for hosting and I bought some advertising/whatever and my site got extremely popular and then my provider shut down my account without notice or warning. You can bet I would be extremely displeased and looking for recourse.
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  23. #48
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hull, UK
    Posts
    222
    Quote Originally Posted by lostmind View Post
    If I signed up for hosting and I bought some advertising/whatever and my site got extremely popular and then my provider shut down my account without notice or warning. You can bet I would be extremely displeased and looking for recourse.
    That's a reasonable assumption to make in my view and I'm more or less certain most customers we have would take that line, but most hosts will however state in their ToS that they either shut down the account/VPS upon bandwidth being expended or they charge X per GB over and slap you with a nice bill; which can be met with equally as much disdain... The best thing to do would be to contact the host before you launched such a campaign in order to ensure that everyone is on the same page. Granted it doesn't always work that way, but a positive host/client relationship goes one heck of a long way in this day and age and it could just well save on a massive bill or account being suspended etc

    With regards to this thread and what has happened, it seems a classic case of misunderstanding exactly what 'Fully Managed' means. Costly, frustrating but should be chalked up as experience. In the mean time I'd like to think that the host involved would recognise that the client appears unable to make such a large payment, even at a discounted rate, and would arrange an alternate deal in which all parties are satisfied. /ideal world speech
    Last edited by hertzwebsolutions; 10-09-2009 at 06:22 PM. Reason: couldn't spell properly
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  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by hertzwebsolutions View Post
    That's a reasonable assumption to make in my view and I'm more or less certain most customers we have would take that line, but most hosts will however state in their ToS that they either shut down the account/VPS upon bandwidth being expended or they charge X per GB over and slap you with a nice bill; which can be met with equally as much disdain... The best thing to do would be to contact the host before you launched such a campaign in order to ensure that everyone is on the same page. Granted it doesn't always work that way, but a positive host/client relationship goes one heck of a long way in this day and age and it could just well save on a massive bill or account being suspended etc
    Oh I agree. I wish my clients would contact me before they launch their new projects so we can right size their hosting for every new venture. But that doesn't really happen in the real world
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  25. #50
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hull, UK
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostmind View Post
    Oh I agree. I wish my clients would contact me before they launch their new projects so we can right size their hosting for every new venture. But that doesn't really happen in the real world
    We've seen it happen a few times, rarely but it does with some.
    UK Based Hosting Company
    HWS Hosting

    http://www.hwshosting.net
    We aim to please, open a ticket at sales@hwshosting.net
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