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  1. #1

    Need a Web Host with a Spine and in a country with no regard for American lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by ldcdc View Post
    I would not put much faith into hosts not buckling under pressure. It would take some history of resistance to legal threats to choose them for a free speech sensitive type site.
    [rant]

    My first host crumbled like a potato chip in your back pocket when he got a single letter complaining about a "bad word," from a whiner who behaved like a third grader run to teacher. Telling someone to shove it where the sun don't shine is enough to get bluehost or godaddy to X your account. Face it, America is the land of litigation, not freedom.

    Quote Originally Posted by HostColor View Post
    Hi,
    What's wrong with the U.S. law. What kind of website do you actually want to host?
    ((Implying that someone is lying about his site??))

    Firing up another IhateXXXcompany.site is certainly going to generate some letters to the web host, anonymous, personal, and lawyerese. A site doesn't have to be racist hate, nailbomb construction, or crackNhack to get letters from thin-skinned readers(exactly the kind told to Stay OUT in a dozen places, the registration page, FAQ, and Forum announcements).

    My own site is for Sportsmen - it became a collecting point for a group of men banned by another much bigger BB (many of whom were banned for knowing more than the moderators at the other site). We've now been suspended twice more by nansy-pansy web hosts. That's the real insult. And that's what got me to sign up at THIS site, after almost a month of looking for a new host with a spine, or in a location with a history of telling American milk-toast lawyers to sit and spin, or preferably, both.

    My second web host who had a "web" history of 1A resistance folded like a AAA road map at the first jump. He wouldn't send me a copy of the D&C letter or explain the move. He just suspended the site without comment, recourse, or refund.

    Quote Originally Posted by ldcdc View Post
    I would not put much faith into hosts not buckling under pressure. It would take some history of resistance to legal threats to choose them for a free speech sensitive type site.
    Exactly. (Yea I know, I quoted that one twice.)

    I've been looking at Croatia and Ukraine, for no other reasons than they don't speak a word of English, don't even use the same alphabet, and probably couldn't read a word of a D&C letter without iGoogle on a bet.

    Guaranteed, my users are going to call the admin and mods at the other bigger site dumb, fat, lyin' turds and worse. Defamation is only defamatory if it's a lie. But the web hosts I've dealt with wouldn't know the truth if it sat in their lap and called them mama.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stealthy One View Post
    They may not, but most hosts just shut down the site out of fear rather than actually research whether it's a real threat or not. Since I've been involved with Web hosting, it has actually surprised me to see the number of hosts here in the U.S. who do not seem to be up on what rights users have. It's kind of sickening, really, as it seems that oftentimes the host takes the side of the opposing party, and not that of the user.
    Sickening? How true. Let's get together for a hurl. They just cut and run at the first thought of a lawyer's bill.

    That's why, this time around picking a web host, I want some geographic distance, some selective foreign language memory loss, and a web host with grit.

    What country would you choose?? - with real reasons - ((NOT "try Indo" when your knee-jerk choice of a notoriously conservative country is likely to get ME banned for a 4th time if YOU'RE wrong)) Real reasons why the Ukraine might throw a lawyer letter in the circular file are sorely needed.

    Better, I want a web host who actually believes "free speech" is more than two words and ten letters. Or better, he just doesn't care. He might even host skinheads, nailbombers, or warez, as long as he's got guts.

    Quote Originally Posted by SwedeHost-Luke View Post
    Check SwedeHost's offer on this thread:
    XXX link - no links for newcomers - link removed
    I'm going to get hate mail, junk mail, lawyer mail, like any other "bash" forum, whether it's I hate Wal-Mart or IBMsux. Are you saying Sweden has a history of disregarding a frivolous American threat?

    Am I shooting myself in the foot asking questions? Maybe it's better to sign up, pay, post, backup every day, and change hosts every time they get a letter?

    Experienced opinions needed. [/rant]

  2. #2
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    Last edited by quantumphysics; 09-20-2009 at 12:03 PM.

  3. #3
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    Unfortunately, with these sorts of sites, web hosts can incur unwanted attention from the darker side of the internet. If Cease and Desist letters don't work, it is not unknown for parties to resort to underhanded tactics to remove a site from the internet (such as a DDoS attack).

    Some hosts might survive this and still be able to keep your site online, but essentially when you know that parties will want your site to not exist, you are asking a potential host to risk their infrastructure and, indeed, existence.

    There is www.nearlyfreespeech.net that support and respect their member's privacy and free speech. They will not remove offensive content from their servers.

  4. #4
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    Hi,

    I'd recommend prq.se as this is were piratebay is hosted. You might want to try looking for "bulletproof hosting" but I'm fairly certain it's expensive.

    I'd recommend that you be ready to move in a hurry as these types of hosts tend to be unstable.

    FYI: I've handled abuse complaints for years now and I agree that US law regarding this (which I have to comply with) is completely ridiculous. I've dealt with "Detectives", idiotic lawyers, and estranged spouses.
    Common sense is not so common.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xous View Post
    Hi,

    I'd recommend prq.se as this is were piratebay is hosted. You might want to try looking for "bulletproof hosting" but I'm fairly certain it's expensive.

    I'd recommend that you be ready to move in a hurry as these types of hosts tend to be unstable.

    FYI: I've handled abuse complaints for years now and I agree that US law regarding this (which I have to comply with) is completely ridiculous. I've dealt with "Detectives", idiotic lawyers, and estranged spouses.
    Piratebay is hosted elsewhere now, PRQ is just a normal host that supports free speech. It's different from "bulletproof hosting" because no warez + no spam.

  6. #6
    QUOTE=Mike;6401659
    "Unfortunately, with these sorts of sites, web hosts can incur unwanted attention from the darker side of the internet. If Cease and Desist letters don't work, it is not unknown for parties to resort to underhanded tactics to remove a site from the internet (such as a DDoS attack).

    "Some hosts might survive this and still be able to keep your site online, but essentially when you know that parties will want your site to not exist, you are asking a potential host to risk their infrastructure and, indeed, existence.

    "There is nearlyfreespeech.net that support and respect their member's privacy and free speech. They will not remove offensive content from their servers."

    Thanks for your interest and advice. I will check these out and let you know where I end up (wondering if I will get suspended again?). Our "dark side" consists of words, a lot of profane truth - no racial, sexist, or violent hate.

    I was also hoping to provoke a bit of discussion about hosting in foreign countries, like Croatia or the Ukraine, Russia or HongKong. While many in other places speak English, these locations seemed remote enough to provide an extra buffer from the easy reach of North America or Europe, a different language and alphabet, and a moderate level of disrespect for ugly Americans. Do others here host in Croatia? iGoogle translates their pages there very well.

    Remember? I'm hosting a group of sportsmen, not rocket surgeons. A DOS attack is the best thing that could happen. Corporate sponsors who pay for the other site would not tolerate dirty tricks. They'd pull their advertising. That would be a win for the home team.

    On a lighter note, here's a copy of a "Sieze and Desist" order a moderator for my site received and his reply.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Message: Good afternoon, sir,

    MY name is Gaines Portmouth, counsel for an individual on a online predator hunting sight, his name will be kept anonymous.

    It has come to our attention of this attempt at a discreditation of the anonymous gentleman, this attempt lies soley in the hands of you.

    This will be the one and only warning of an impending sieze and desist order. I will give you until 5:15 PST p.m., the 10th of month of August in year 2009 to shut down the predatorxxxxxxx.site website. If you dismember this sight before the deadline, then cease and desist order will be terminated,

    Good day, Sir

    Mr. Portsmouth

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    And the Reply:

    Dear Mr Portsmouth, Your client is a cowardly bastard. We fully intend to hunt him down and gomaguchy him. You should distance yourself from him immediately. We will not "seize and desist", nor will we stop pointing out what an ******* he is. Thanks for your concern.

    Mr. Pit bull

    Its cease and desist.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I hope you laughed as hard as I did.

    We also received a followup from Mr Portsmouth's partner. It wasn't quite as thought-provoking as the original.

    My last web host refused to send me a copy of the D&C letter, so I don't know in what state of disarray it was. But I heard it through the grapevine that the offended parties expended their legal budget for several years getting just that one letter written and served. It might have come from a real attorney.

    They won't serve me. That would be fruitless. They will, however, continue to send letters to web hosts, now that they've revealed a pattern of weakness.

  7. #7
    i once faced a similar issue with a host.my hosting company was
    3ix.org , a lawyer has asked them my address and other data on my web.but the lawyer wasnot successfull,3ix didnot give any data of mine to lawyers and they send me an email regarding to this issue.
    my advice is trying to find a big and well established ,international,company as a host ,because very big companies has their own lawyers inside the company to decide what will be right or wrong.

    also you may ask some presales questions regarding to this.

    as a big company i can advice you ,http://www.verio.com/

  8. #8
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    Brasil hosts.

    They could rent a lawyer here to sue your site, but it could rent one too and it would take at least 10 years for the process to finish.

    Just get a good host that deals with DoS and a good lawyer to pay "extra benefits" to the judge.

  9. #9
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    Message: Good afternoon, sir,

    MY name is Gaines Portmouth, counsel for an individual on a online predator hunting sight, his name will be kept anonymous.

    It has come to our attention of this attempt at a discreditation of the anonymous gentleman, this attempt lies soley in the hands of you.

    This will be the one and only warning of an impending sieze and desist order. I will give you until 5:15 PST p.m., the 10th of month of August in year 2009 to shut down the predatorxxxxxxx.site website. If you dismember this sight before the deadline, then cease and desist order will be terminated,

    Good day, Sir

    Mr. Portsmouth
    I thought a lawyer would have better grammer, or at least know how to use spell check.

  10. #10
    Update - I kept the site down for two months and left its critics to wander off and go find new interests/targets. Thanks for the heads up on "NearlyFreeSpeech," and while it looked good, I concluded it wasn't a good fit. They seem to revel in political turmoil. Looking further to the east, I tried my hand at various international providers and used Goggle's translate feature on a variety of web pages. It worked pretty well for even the radically different alphabets - from Hebrew to Hindi.

    I ended up in Croatia! It was a leap of faith to submit a cc# in a form I had translated in Goggle, but I was rewarded with a cPanel in English and a full complement of Fantastico scripts after login. I didn't even have to upload the CMS or initialize my own database. Within minutes, I was uploading to a brand new Drupal site. I had to submit a support ticket and one of the techs either speaks excellent English or knows how to use Goggle translate too.

    Hvala Hrvatska!

  11. #11
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    Heh, I'd just like to point out how ridiculous their "seize and desist"(cease) letter is. Maybe you retyped it but if not it appears you're dealing with someone pretending to be a lawyer because there's numerous misspellings and things that don't make sense. I wouldn't shut down a site if we got a letter like that, I'd send back a link go a spell check site.
    Larry Bly
    Sandbox IT Solutions, LLC.
    www.SandboxITSolutions.com
    Dedicated Servers - Web Hosting - Consulting Services

  12. #12
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    I read on Wikipedia that Iran allows US software etc to be 'pirated' legally.
    Maybe they would not mind content that would annoy US lawyers as well?

  13. #13
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    Heh, I'd just like to point out how ridiculous their "seize and desist"(cease) letter is. Maybe you retyped it but if not it appears you're dealing with someone pretending to be a lawyer because there's numerous misspellings and things that don't make sense. I wouldn't shut down a site if we got a letter like that, I'd send back a link go a spell check site.
    My thoughts exactly. I would not have taken that letter seriously at all as it sounds like it came from a poorly schooled 8th grader.

  14. #14
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    What's your budget for this?

    The solution would possibly be better to be technical, rather than legal. Using one or more reverse proxy servers (a small VPS or two) to serve your content remotely from your actual hosting. You can move and switch around these proxies as required, but your actual site will still be hosted in one place, the location of which would be hidden by the proxy(s). The only thing you'll need to worry about from there is DNS - consider using multiple providers in multiple locations to host your DNS to avoid the lawyers going after the DNS host, and at a stretch, using a domain registrar that won't crumble either.

    One place I definitely can't recommend for hosting content like this is the UK - our libel laws and some recent "super" injunctions have made a mockery of free speech.
    Darren Lingham - UK Webhosting Ltd. - (0800) 024 2931
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  15. #15
    All good comments and suggestions. As for budget - as much as I need to spend, but none to waste!

    The move to Croatia gave me two of the things I think I needed: geographical separation and a language barrier. I knew there were other alternatives, but this was quick, easy, and inexpensive. $48/year for a shared host, which is more than enough for a site with less than 500MB in softs and storage, ~100 members, & ~2000 readers. We were the site no one wanted to admit that they read every day. With the word censors off, the profanity was rampant and the name calling was epic. We also boasted one of the best smiley collections on the web, included dancing dickheads and a few smiling circle jerks! The first time it was enough to get us tossed from Bluehost (in spite of that misleading name). The second I'm not so sure - I don't think it was the profanity.

    Remember the context? We should revisit that. This was a small site for sportsmen - mostly hunters from the US desert southwest - a cantankerous and hard-to-handle group to be sure, but none too computer-savvy. Like many forums, it was a herd of cats. The various letters the hosts received probably included the illiterate, the well-reasoned, and everything in between. The profanity on the site was a fake issue, a non-starter in court, but offensive to the thin-skinned to be sure. I'm not sure we crossed the libel line, but that's the gist of the second suspension. It would have taken a jury to know for sure. The forum's conversations apparently were raucous enough in either form or content to scare off the second web host, who, by the way, was getting about $80/year for his potential trouble. I'm not sure how well those kind of he-said-he-said letters would be received in Croatia, but down the road I'll probably get a chance to find out.

    I included the "Sieze and Desist" letter, an obvious fake, just because it made me laugh so freakin' hard. I swear I almost popped a vessel reading it, the tears of laughter streaming down my face. I'm not sure my buddy spelled "gamagouchy" right. He made it up. But I found a song later called "The Gamma Goochee," a cover by Joe Walsh of an old 50's tune, so he had the right idea. Joe's gamma was a dance though, not a suplex, which is more what my friend had in mind.

    Thanks too for the suggestion of VPS and reverse proxies, multiple DNS, etc. I'm not sure that's needed right now. My opponents are not well-funded enough to get much past that original $500 attorney's letter to the host. They've collected some advertising fees to be sure, but probably would rather spend them on booze than give them to a sheister. A host with a spine, one who demands a court of jurisdiction's assurance there is a cause of action with a strong probability of a judgment, would have tossed the damn letter in the trash can and demanded a real subpoena.

    By the way, in the process, I found a host with VPS for as little as $15/month and openVPN service elsewhere for about the same. My own security, besides the gates, dogs, and coyote shooters has been upped a few notches. My computers are much more well protected than they were a few months ago, partly due to what I've read here at WHT. I'd love to have my own server humming in the closet, but at those prices, I'm not sure I can afford it. It's cheaper to rent.

    Just what exactly would one do to raise their own security beyond the basic? Remote multiple locations and proxies, anonymous registrations and payments? I suppose anything and everything that would make them hard or impossible to find, serve, subpoena, search, or sue. I would imagine that the owners of a site like the "The Pirate Bay" would have done many things to protect their anonymity, software, and hardware locations, but nonetheless when the **** hit the fan, they were hooked, booked, and cooked. I'm NOT dealing with the Department of Justice, just a few pissed off site owners who think others have no right to speech or even exist.

    The more I learn, the less I know.
    Last edited by GNCA; 11-14-2009 at 02:51 PM.

  16. #16
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    I guess your best choice will be China, they have scant regards for any copyright laws and American lawyers.

  17. #17
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    I would look for the hosts of other websites that have similar content. You can also look for the hosts of torrent websites.

    Web hosts located in China, Russia, Ukraine etc might allow you but most of them don't have English website though.

  18. #18
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    I don't agree with the person who said to go with a big well established host.
    In my experience its very difficult to get your problem to the attention of someone with actual power to do something in a big company.
    They certainly will not pay their expensive lawyers to investigate every complaint against you for a few $ a month.

    The best way would be to contact a smaller host who you can speak to the owner(s) directly and explain what your site is about.

    If the complaint is about something your members are writing about another person (ie. libel/slander) then I don't see why the hosts removed it at all. While the person who said it may be liable, the host certainly is not. I certainly would not have even responded to a badly worded letter claiming to be from a lawyer, straight into the trash folder is where it goes.
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  19. #19
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    I will just going to ignore that kind of letter.

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