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  1. #1

    The cheapest & reliable server to host a SWOOPO clone?

    I am a working on a website which will be more diverse but will work in the same way SWOOPO and many other auctions websites work with bids being placed etc.

    I do not want to run the site on a hired dedicated server, I have a budget of around £5000 (around USD $8000) to buy a server. I was thinking of buying something from ebay, I am as of yet undecided exactly what to buy but I am leaning towards an affordable DELL 1855 blade chassis with the full 10x blades that is available. I have already made enquiries with datacentres in London about colocation costs, just waiting for an official quote.

    Each blade has:

    2 x Intel Xeon 3.6Ghz/1Mb Processors Both Installed
    4096MB ECC RAM
    1 x 36GB U320 10k Hot-Swap SCSI Hard Drives
    PERC 4/iM RAID Controller

    Further information in the advert:

    Blade Centre Components:

    1 x Digital KVM Module

    1 x 10 Port Gigabit pass Through Module

    1 x DRAC/MC Module (1 x Serial Port, 1 x 10/100 RJ45 Port for Remote Management)

    3 x 1200Watt Power Supplies

    7U Rackmount Chassis (No Rails Supplied)

    All housed in PE1855, 7U Rackmount Blade Centre

    Optional Gigabit Ethernet Daughter Cards Available @ £60.00 per Blade

    This can give 72ghz of processing power with 40GB RAM and that is awesome. Does anyone know an approximate figure of how many customers/queries the server can handle at % rates? I know this depends on the size of the database and so on but I am just looking for estimates please.

    I know I will need at least two cheap servers for a SWOOPO clone, one to run the website and the other for the SQL so rather than do that and get two servers I thought this route was better when weighing up the 7u size along with 72ghz processing power.

    I am not looking for advice and tips on hiring a dedicated server but I really would appreciate some advice on what server to buy because the script is nearly 95% complete and we should be launching within 6-7 weeks after heavily testing it.

    A big Thank You to you all in advance.
    Last edited by JammyAlly; 09-06-2009 at 07:50 PM.

  2. #2
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    I would tell you to go for a newer hardware solution. At that purchasing power you mentioned, you can surely buy new Nehalems/Barcelonas with faster memory, better processing power, for the same cost and with a better added value as well as resale capability later. Using less rackspace than the 7U, and less things to learn. Also, the power bill for that blade system will be absurdely high.

    For example, take a look at the new supermicro hardware that fits in 2U and uses "only" 8A@120V: http://www.siliconmechanics.com/i227...-2U-4-Node.php
    (you can buy separate servers also instead of using half-U boxes if more comfortable).

    Or the AMD-version with their newest Six-Core Barcelonas, which on a single 1U box you can reach 62Ghz of processing power: http://www.siliconmechanics.com/i195...win-server.php

    (Note that Silicon Mechanics is far from being the cheapest Supermicro reseller/distributor, but their config page gives you a hint on maximum pricing)

    In your case I would go AMD due to faster speed for the HyperTransport bus (5.2 Ghz between CPUs and between CPU-Memory Controller; versus 1333Mhz max for the FrontSide Bus on the Intels.

  3. #3
    Thanks for the reply iptelligent, this was confusing me somewhat so I posted and your reply helped out a lot.

    I managed to build a 4 node server, each node with 2x1TB drives, 12GB RAM, 2xQUAD E5506 2.13GHZ processors and it's all in 2U. That gives 17ghz per node so that is just over 68ghz total. That costs $9345.00 which is around £5840

    The other link you provided with the 1U is just as amazing. I managed to build a 2 node server each node with 2x1TB drives, 12GB RAM, 2x6Core 2.6GHZ processors. So that gives 31ghz per node which means a total processing power of 62.4ghz. This one is only $7450 which is around £4660

    .... the only problem then would be paying customs/duty/tax to have it imported to the UK and either way it is expensive.

    Do you think the 2 node server will be able to handle large volumes of traffic with huge pulls on the SQL? If the site turns out to be a success and we get some publicity in a newspaper we could end up with peak traffic of say 10k, 20, 40k or 100k who visited the site because they read about it in the news. The danger is the server collapsing and this is where I have very little knowledge. I understand the logic behind what you said with powerbills and so on associated with Dell's 1855 and I thank you for the explanation but I still need a little help with working out how many visitors either of the two mentioned configurations can safely handle. I know this is based on the website, the code, the size of the SQL etc but an estimate would really help.

  4. #4
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    Try finding Supermicro dealers in the UK ;-)
    http://www.supermicro.com/wheretobuy/europe.cfm?rgn=132

    I don't have the "magical formula" for high traffic sites (maybe someone here more experient has), but it helps to have _faster_ drives for the SQL. I'd recommend the SSD ones or 10/15krpm Raptors instead of the 1TB SATA.
    On terms of traffic, a Gigabit worth of transit does use about a Gigahertz of processor for its processing, so I don't think that will be an issue for you.

    Also, sometimes there is the possibility of getting a piece of this hardware on loan for some days/a month in order to bench-test its load, maybe you could check with the resellers?

  5. #5
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    I am also wondering if you need that much calculation power, hard disks are the slowest parts these days, so if you replace the 36 GB hard disks with SSDs at the same size and reduce the number of nodes to 5 I am pretty sure you still get better performance for your website.

  6. #6
    @ iptelligent - Thank you for the reply. I have almost completely dismissed the idea of the blade server now, your options makes far more sense and the UK Supermicro link helped. Thank you.

    @ xojac - I agree the drives can be small around 36GB each. The database can be backed up by the colocation company in most cases.

    I suppose there are at least three key elements at play here as far as a start-up company like mine is concerned. The biggest one is that I want to 'protect' my code and feel it would be better protected from theft/duplication if it was housed on my own server. I have worked full time for a large company in London for many years doing all kinds of shift work including nightshifts yet I have been plugging away at the website sometimes for just a few minutes a day and sometimes for hours before or after my shift at work trying to create and then fix/iron out bugs as well as give it a pretty design. I have had to outsource some of the work from time to time in order to get to where I am now and I am happy I can launch the site within a handful of weeks. I know this is not an absolute but the fact is there are lots of hosting companies out there who can copy code or would gladly do it. I also know some of the biggest corporations in the world run managed dedicated servers for their applications and there are never data theft issues so for me to consider that option I would have to find the right company. I do feel attached to the work I put in over a period of years to code the script so the idea of it being being hosted (and then by default be available for someone else to copy/download) is something very off-putting but I presume this is normal.

    The second reason being that the fear of a server crashing because of an intensity of hits, this is not wishful thinking but a possibility because if the site is successful and I get a few newspaper articles printed then there will be a surge albeit a temporary one lasting a few days sporadically.

    The third has to be lack of knowledge in the server market and that is why I appreciate all advice given here. I am serious about getting my business off the ground and all advice no matter how small is appreciated

  7. #7
    I hope you haven't actually seen this happen, and it's only some ill-rumour floating around, but stealing data from the customer's server? It sounds highly unlikely, and you can go as far as to encrypt your storage if it's so important to you, as that will make it impossible to steal your data by removing the drive from the server.

    If you ask me, it sounds like you're overcomplicating yourself, instead of going with a single or two servers in different locations for added redundancy. Using many low end servers in the same location won't really give you enough redundancy, and the load balancing will be quite complicated, especially on the db side of things, depending how you plan to set up everything.

    Comparing raw processing power on old servers with new servers won't work so well, as processors don't perform the same clock-for-clock. A decent Core2Duo will smoke one of those old Xeons.

    If you're sure this will take off, then colo might be the way to go, but remember that it will take some time to make your investment back, and who knows if this website will get as big as you want it to, since there are quite a few websites like the one you plan to make, unless you have some tricks up your sleeves .
    478east
    High Bandwidth Servers
    Custom Hosting Solutions

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by cristibighea View Post
    I hope you haven't actually seen this happen, and it's only some ill-rumour floating around, but stealing data from the customer's server? It sounds highly unlikely, and you can go as far as to encrypt your storage if it's so important to you, as that will make it impossible to steal your data by removing the drive from the server.
    Encryption is a possibility, thank you for mentioning it. No I have never heard of it happening but there is a possibility of it happening if other people have access to it either remotely or physically.

    Quote Originally Posted by cristibighea View Post
    If you ask me, it sounds like you're overcomplicating yourself, instead of going with a single or two servers in different locations for added redundancy. Using many low end servers in the same location won't really give you enough redundancy, and the load balancing will be quite complicated, especially on the db side of things, depending how you plan to set up everything.
    Can you be a little more specific please. The Supermicro servers mentioned by iptelligent are high specification high end servers that are housed in the same chassis and the same applies to the DELL blade 1855.

    Getting two high specification servers (one running the DB and other running the website) and even housing them in different locations to be honest it appeals to me if it is all secure as I can avoid buying a server thus saving costs. I will look in to this and furthermore look for a few good dedicated server companies and then decide if colocation or dedicated is the way forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by cristibighea View Post
    Comparing raw processing power on old servers with new servers won't work so well, as processors don't perform the same clock-for-clock. A decent Core2Duo will smoke one of those old Xeons.
    I know what you mean. You see my only concern with processors is a simple one, if I get a newspaper article in national paper then without a doubt it will generate hits and I do not want the server to collapse under the load and for this reason I was going for raw processing power regardless of server size, datacentre costs and power consumption

    Quote Originally Posted by cristibighea View Post
    If you're sure this will take off, then colo might be the way to go, but remember that it will take some time to make your investment back, and who knows if this website will get as big as you want it to, since there are quite a few websites like the one you plan to make, unless you have some tricks up your sleeves .
    Actually you are right I have a couple of tricks up my sleeve which will give the site enormous publicity which in turn should generate plenty of hits and this should result in income as well. It is similar in just a few aspects to SWOOPO, there is much more to it than just the SWOOPO effect so I think even though it will not be unique it will definitely have a niche market.

    At the very least if it all backfires and I make no money and the website is a flop all I end up doing is losing a few thousand. At least I can say to myself that I did what many millions only dream about but never attempt... I had an idea and I followed it through by investing my own money and my own time and that in itself would give some degree of satisfaction even in failure. On the other hand if it took off and made money then datacentre housing costs and server purchasing costs would become irrelavant.

  9. #9
    Let's not get carried away with building our own datacenters . I was indeed only talking about the blade server, not what iptelligent recommended.

    I'd still go with a dedicated first, but it's up to you .
    478east
    High Bandwidth Servers
    Custom Hosting Solutions

  10. #10
    Thank you for the reply, I appreciate it very much.

    I am now also convinced that a dedicated server is the way forward especially to test the water... can you recommend a good respectable company and typical hardware specs if it were you running a site similar to swoopo where you had thousands of registered customers and say 10s of thousands of browsers per day.

  11. #11
    http://www.memset.com/dedicated-servers/physical.php

    For around £1000 per month (approximately USD $1600) I can customise this Dell R900 with add-ons like extra RAM, cpanel and 'help/support' etc but MEMSET do not have excellent reviews on the net.

    --------------------------------------
    They say: We offer a range of unmetered connections with a varying degree of contention.

    10Mbps, 20:1 contention (+£0.00/mo)
    10Mbps, 10:1 contention (+£20.00/mo)
    10Mbps, 5:1 contention (+£60.00/mo)
    5Mbps, 1:1 contention (+£180.00/mo)
    10Mbps, 2:1 contention (+£180.00/mo)
    10Mbps, 1:1 contention (+£380.00/mo)
    20Mbps, 1:1 contention (+£780.00/mo)

    They also say: Our metered connections are burstable to 20Mbps and we charge per GByte of data transferred, with a pre-paid amount included as below.

    100 GB/mo (+£0.00/mo)
    200 GB/mo (+£30.00/mo)
    300 GB/mo (+£60.00/mo)
    400 GB/mo (+£90.00/mo)
    500 GB/mo (+£120.00/mo)
    --------------------------------------

    Can someone elaborate on what this means and then break it down in to simple English with pros and cons please

    Any comments would be appreciated from anyone regarding this server in general, or on MEMSET as a company and of course on this server in regards to what I am trying to achieve with my SWOOPO-ish site and having capacity to handle heavy traffic and database usage.

    Thank You

  12. #12
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    "Contention" in their terms means "how many people that same link and amount of bandwidth is shared with". As you can guess, 1:1 is "completely dedicated to you" bandwidth.

    I may suggest that these prices are completely absurdly high for bandwidth in the UK and even more absurd for the US?

  13. #13
    iptelligent thank you for the information.

    http://www.xlhost.com/moreinfo.php?service=77

    This one with XLHOST was the only other one I could find from a quick search that was reasonably priced and fairly powerful but they also do not have great reviews on the net.

    Other than Poundhost (which is in the UK) not many UK companies can compete with the bandwidth rates that USA datacentres offer, yes those rates are absurdly expensive so with a little more searching and hopefully some more replies to this thread I will be able to find the perfect datacentre with the perfect dedicated server

  14. #14
    Why are you limiting yourself to the UK? As long as the server is well connected the difference won't really be noticeable, plus you won't be paying VAT.
    478east
    High Bandwidth Servers
    Custom Hosting Solutions

  15. #15
    I am not limiting myself to the UK, if a dedicated server is the way forward then it would probably have to with a company in the USA. You are absolutely right about VAT.

    I just found this very interesting site as well, just so happens they are UK based: http://www.racksrv.com/dedicated-servers

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