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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Russia - Moscow
    Posts
    44

    Question Datacenter Gurus, i need ur help!

    Hello,

    Finally I opened my datacenter in Moscow.
    I have 1 person in datacenter only for restarting servers if they goes offline.

    I am new to all these things but i researched and find out that many datacenters have auto restarting function.

    I want some tips/tricks to optimize my datacenter and decrease problems and down times.

    my 2 main problems are:

    1st problem: What datacenters are using for restarting the servers ? I can see they can restart a server even if the server is completely offline. I am not sure if they are using " KVM over ip " or something else.

    2nd problem: I am sick of UPS-Smart. I think UPS is for back-up power, if main power goes down, UPS keeps it online for some minutes. but i can see, servers are using UPS 24 hours even if main power is on. i want servers to use main power directly when main power is on, if main power goes down, UPS should automatically detect and start providing power to servers to keep them online for some minutes.

    For example, i have UPS-Smart 3kW and i connected them to 10 servers, when power goes off, it should keep servers online 5-6 minutes.
    3kW UPS is keeping 10 servers online for 5-6 minutes but when i am connecting 20 servers, i am getting a message: UPS over load.
    Is there something similar to UPS to keep the servers online when power goes off and UPS keeps server online for 10-15 seconds or 1 minute?

    another example: i have a UPS of 3kW and i connected 35 servers to it, when main power is on, servers should not use power from UPS at all, when main power goes off, servers should use UPS for 5-10 seconds till main power comes on. is there any solution for this ?

    I don't know how to explain 2nd problem but all i want is, i want a backup power to keep the servers online for 10-15 seconds if main power goes off.
    Backup power should not be used until main power is on, if main power goes down, UPS should automatically detect it and start supplying power to the servers.

    Currently i am connecting 3 UPS smart for each 45U Rack and still sometimes they are going offline due to overload problem, i hate over load message

    sometimes power goes down for 3-5 seconds and i don't want the servers to go down. it happens once in 3-6 months though


    Please let me know if you have idea how to solve these issues.
    www.oooServer.com
    Russia - Moscow Based Datacenter : Dedicated Servers / Co-location

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    604
    Congratulations on the opening of your new datacenter in Moscow. While I don't have a lot of experience in the 'datacenter' field I can answer your question about your issue with server reboots. I think the most effective way would be to setup remote reboot ports by APC and some sort of KVM/IP solution and bundle it with your servers. This way if customers need assistance they can help themselves and only contact your staff for emergencies such as power/network failures.

    Regarding the UPS setup, I'm not sure why your servers are running on UPS even though main power is available. This shouldn't be the case; however as I mentioned I'm not a specialist with this. I would recommend getting a local datacenter engineer to assist you with this and/or someone on these forums maybe able to advise you on this.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Russia - Moscow
    Posts
    44
    Thank you Jason_Slominski.
    I will try to contact a local datacenter engineer.

    If anyone else have idea how to solve this issue, please guide me.
    www.oooServer.com
    Russia - Moscow Based Datacenter : Dedicated Servers / Co-location

  4. #4
    You would use PDUs on the racks, digital PDUs that you can turn on, turn off, recycle or lock-out power to each individual outlet that powers a server.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Lynnwood, WA
    Posts
    438
    ... this is the sort of thing you should know before you even start thinking about running a DC.

    Those batteries are there, ALWAYS powering the servers, while they in turn are powered by the main feed. This is so that, in the event of a loss of primary power, they can go on, without a hiccup, while you power up your generators.

    They're complaining about load because you are, in fact, trying to put too many servers through them.. they either simply cannot power that many servers ever, or will only be able to provide seconds of power should primary power be interrupted, which is not long enough to be of any real use.

    I have never seen a datacenter actually throw 3 home-use UPS's at each cabinet to meet this requirement, however. You will want to look into industrial grade/datacenter grade UPS for this task. They do not handle 3kW, they handle far more, and while they're more expensive, the protection they provide versus an equivalent number of little home-use UPS will probably work out in the favor of the big guy, especially considering maintenance and management of all those things.

    Believe me, if using off the shelf CompUSA-purchased UPS could get the job done cheaper, I know a number of datacenters that'd probably try it; they don't, so that's all I need to know insofar as that's not a viable option.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Russia - Moscow
    Posts
    44
    Thank you for kind information.

    Nex7, i agree what you are saying but until you don't face the problem, you will not search how to solve it.

    I researched and found this: MINUTEMAN UPS - 60KVA 23MIN External Battery Pack Non-Matching

    http://www.provantage.com/minuteman-...x~7MTMN09A.htm

    60kVA which is 50kW.

    or

    this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/Powerware-9315-5...3A1|294% 3A50

    Will get 2 of them which will be 100kW in total and will be enough for 300-350 servers.

    Please let me know what you think about above product. is it worth to get it or not ?

    if no, then please recommend me a good UPS from a good company.

    Recommendation / guidance / Ideas are most welcome.
    www.oooServer.com
    Russia - Moscow Based Datacenter : Dedicated Servers / Co-location

  7. #7
    For deciding UPS, check http://www.apc.com/tools/ups_selector/

    They are the leaders in this space. they are far more reliable than any other brand.

    Just have a look

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    San Jose, CA.
    Posts
    1,624
    You could implement Rack Transfer Switch(es) (aka ATS PDU)
    http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=14
    That PDU would have one feed going to your main, and one feed going to your UPS and primarily source from main power unless dead in which case it should seamlessly switch over.
    Daved @ Lightwave Networking, LLC.
    AS1426 https:/www.lightwave.net
    Primary Bandwidth: EGIHosting (NLayer, NTT, HE, Cogent)
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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    14
    You definetly need managed PDU's.

    the guys are all sending you on the right track.

    We found that APC ones work very well, and have excellent support for them.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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    6,896
    Quote Originally Posted by Nex7 View Post
    Those batteries are there, ALWAYS powering the servers, while they in turn are powered by the main feed. This is so that, in the event of a loss of primary power, they can go on, without a hiccup, while you power up your generators.
    Er, very very few modern UPS's will actively run all current through the battery when there is not an outage, the batteries/rectifiers, etc. are connected VIA transfer switches, depending on the design.

    The exact name of the UPS type that force all voltage in/out of batteries continuously is escaping me right now, but they're *old* and relatively rare overall. They killed batteries way too quickly, and had very low efficiency ratings, hence why design moved away from them long ago.
    Myles Loosley-Millman - admin@prioritycolo.com
    Priority Colo Inc. - Affordable Colocation & Dedicated Servers.
    Two Canadian facilities serving Toronto & Markham, Ontario
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  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by zekmaster View Post
    Yes, that PowerWare 9315-50 would work well as a datacenter's first UPS (except that it's 480 volt... but you can find one of appropriate voltage in your area).

    I have seen small datacenters use a 6kva UPS in each cabinet. They spend a lot of time replacing the batteries; and every time there's a power fail, they lose at least one cabinet. And the batteries aren't cheap.

    The smallest UPS I would probably start with, is:
    - APC Symmetra RM
    - Liebert GXT2 6kva or 10kva

    Be sure to check the watts they provide, not the KVA. If you put a clamp-meter on your servers, you might estimate the watts at about 97% of volt-amps, using modern servers.

    But a used Powerware 9135-50, or similar, would be better for everything except electrician costs.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Russia - Moscow
    Posts
    44
    Thank you all for great info / guidance.

    Can someone please tell me after how long i have to change UPS batteries ?

    and what you thinka bout Flywheel UPS systems ?

    Flywheel is great UPS also to ignore normal UPS with batteries.
    So far i found flywheel UPS much useful because Russia-Moscow electric is stable and never goes off but sometimes there are shortages and Flywheel UPS can handle it.

    Maximum shortage is 3-4 seconds and Flywheel UPS is keeping the servers online upto 18 seconds or 30 seconds if loaded 50-60% which is 160kva (130-135kW).

    Let me know if anyone have experience with Flywheel UPS.
    www.oooServer.com
    Russia - Moscow Based Datacenter : Dedicated Servers / Co-location

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    5,105
    I would only consider flywheel ups if you have reliable generator power that actually kicks in under 15 seconds.

    If you do not have generator do not consider flywheel.
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  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Interesting discussion; there's a lot of ground between a datacenter starting-out with rack-mount UPSes, and one considering flywheels.

    I do operate UPSes with batteries; and also with flywheels. Flywheels are best suited to users who need ride-through but not generator; or users who need continuous power and have lots of experience engineering continuous power.

    The first group might include a medical clinic MRI lab, or other installation that needs to ride-through most power glitches, but does not need to operate through sustained utility service outages. There may be some private datacenters in this group, depending on application.

    Commercial datacenters would fall into the second group.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Russia - Moscow
    Posts
    44
    Thanks once again everyone.

    After long research and i found price for Flywheel UPS, they are very expensive for 15-20 seconds keeping the server online and they eat too much electricity.

    Flywheel UPS = 81,550 Euro for small one and 89,000+ Euro for bigger one, which is more then 115k USD. it's not worth to spend 115k for 200kW only for 15 seconds.

    Can anyone please recommend me a good UPS which provides 70-80kVA ( 65-70kW ).

    I need a single/good UPS with 65-70kW to keep away power shortage.
    Power shortage is normally not more then 3-5 seconds where my DC is, it happens once or max 2 times in a month.
    www.oooServer.com
    Russia - Moscow Based Datacenter : Dedicated Servers / Co-location

  16. #16
    Defiantly look into commerical battery backup units thats the way to go APC makes good equipment so does Liebert. Leibert is pretty in expensive and they run like tanks we run three faise electric to our racks thats tied into out Leibert systems and everything runs great with no issues. We have ILO cards in all of our servers for remote reboot kind of pricey but worth the money goos luck man and congrats.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,007
    Quote Originally Posted by porcupine View Post
    Er, very very few modern UPS's will actively run all current through the battery when there is not an outage, the batteries/rectifiers, etc. are connected VIA transfer switches, depending on the design.

    The exact name of the UPS type that force all voltage in/out of batteries continuously is escaping me right now, but they're *old* and relatively rare overall. They killed batteries way too quickly, and had very low efficiency ratings, hence why design moved away from them long ago.
    They are called on-line (either double conversion or delta conversion).

    Midrange UPS (750-5000 VA) seem to be almost entirely line-interactive. Some at 750 and below are standby. Some above 5kVA are on-line.

    APC used to list the UPS type in the tech specs of their products; they no longer do. The Symmetra MW series (0.4-1.6 megawatts) seem to be (their only) delta-conversion on-line. I'm uncertain as to if any of their other datacenter-grade products are double-conversion.

    As long as they're not standby, I don't see that it really matters what type a UPS is; the switching time these days are so low that only a very poor quality power supply would be unable to handle it. For enterprise-level stuff, they're all supposed to adhere to standards requiring 10ms or more, and switching times are well below that.

    Of course, I'm looking for a low-end unit to power some networking equipment to supplement my extended-run equipped 1500VA unit, and the concern over whether they're standby or line-interactive is real

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