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  1. #1
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    Are OpenVZ VPS generally oversold?

    With OpenVZ there's really no "guarantee" of the amount of RAM you're getting, correct?

    I wondered if overselling is common for OpenVZ VPS. For example, if a VPS node has 8G of RAM, how much OpenVZ "guaranteed RAM" will be sold on it? Is it common to sell, say 12 1G RAM VPS plans on a node with 8G RAM?

    As a customer how can I find out if there's any overselling going on? What's your experience?

    On a related note, if there's no real "guarantee" with OpenVZ, then what's the point of buying a 1G RAM plan instead of a 512M plan? Would I really be getting more RAM? If so, how does that work?

  2. #2
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    OpenVZ does have beancounters available for hosting providers to restrict the amount of RAM to your container -- Thus, you do have a "guaranteed" amount of RAM which you can access and this is all your container sees. This means that a 512MB VPS will definitely not have access to the same amount of resources as a 1GB VPS.

    Now, with that said, OpenVZ does allow for overselling and does not completely "guarantee" your RAM on the node, like Xen. It is unfortunate that a lot of OpenVZ providers do oversell/oversubscribe their hardware which leads to major performance issues.

    It really all boils down to ethics -- If a provider claims they do not oversell then you will just need to take their word for it.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by continuation View Post
    With OpenVZ there's really no "guarantee" of the amount of RAM you're getting, correct?
    Incorrect. You can guarantee resources with OpenVZ the same way you do with Xen. Extra steps are required to achieve the result. We do this at VPS Lux and it's working well. Actually, we disable burst altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by continuation View Post
    I wondered if overselling is common for OpenVZ VPS. For example, if a VPS node has 8G of RAM, how much OpenVZ "guaranteed RAM" will be sold on it? Is it common to sell, say 12 1G RAM VPS plans on a node with 8G RAM?
    Yes, you can sell 12GB burst on an 8GB box. But it's a problem waiting to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by continuation View Post
    As a customer how can I find out if there's any overselling going on? What's your experience?
    /proc/user_beancounters is your best friend in this case since it doesn't lie. It's a kernel interface that server administrators can't just reset without rebooting the VPS. Always keep an eye on the failure count (failcnt). Here's a reading: http://maxgarrick.com/understanding-...source-limits/

    Quote Originally Posted by continuation View Post
    On a related note, if there's no real "guarantee" with OpenVZ, then what's the point of buying a 1G RAM plan instead of a 512M plan? Would I really be getting more RAM? If so, how does that work?
    There's a guarantee as explained above. If you buy a 512MB / 1GB non-guaranteed RAM plan (overseller will advertise is as 1GB RAM), you are guaranteed 512MB of RAM. Anything above 512MB is on best-effort basis. So, if the server is oversold and everyone else is maxing their alloted guaranteed memory and more, you'll never get a chance to burst above 512MB. /proc/user_beancounters fail counter will increase and VPS stability becomes an issue.

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  4. #4
    OpenVZ is just a technology. Some of the web hosts managers are those who oversell because they do not to invest in reliability and in quality service. OS virtualization is an excellent virtualization approach that offers more scalability and the opportunity for web hosts and vps owners to dynamically increase resources. The same with Virtuozzo. my answer is "NO". OS virtualization does not stimulate overselling. VPS owners can see how many recourses they use and if their VPs performance is poor, this might mean that the web host's selling policy is unfair.
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  5. #5
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    Most providers oversell a little, it's server-efficient, there's nothing wrong with that.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNIXy View Post
    There's a guarantee as explained above. If you buy a 512MB / 1GB non-guaranteed RAM plan (overseller will advertise is as 1GB RAM), you are guaranteed 512MB of RAM. Anything above 512MB is on best-effort basis. So, if the server is oversold and everyone else is maxing their alloted guaranteed memory and more, you'll never get a chance to burst above 512MB. /proc/user_beancounters fail counter will increase and VPS stability becomes an issue.
    Regards
    I understand that the "burst" RAM is not guaranteed. What I'm trying to understand is that if the "guaranteed" RAM is really guaranteed.

    For example, is it possible for someone to sell 12 "512M guaranteed, 1G burstable" plans on a 4G RAM node? If it is, then the "guaranteed 512M" isn't really guaranteed, because 12*512 is 6G, larger than the amount of physical RAM on that node.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by continuation View Post
    I understand that the "burst" RAM is not guaranteed. What I'm trying to understand is that if the "guaranteed" RAM is really guaranteed.

    For example, is it possible for someone to sell 12 "512M guaranteed, 1G burstable" plans on a 4G RAM node? If it is, then the "guaranteed 512M" isn't really guaranteed, because 12*512 is 6G, larger than the amount of physical RAM on that node.
    That is exactly what is done in a lot of cases. Each user has 512MB but most are using 200MB so the provider gets away with it. It becomes even easier when you're dealing with machines with double digit GB amounts in memory.

    Most slow VPS's are caused by i/o issues so the drives are to slow. You can get a server with 24GB memory and just a single 1TB machine and it'll get slow from the drive not being fast enough.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by continuation
    I wondered if overselling is common for OpenVZ VPS.
    It is common for budget hosts to oversell, and when they do, it's usualy openvz based vps.
    However it does not mean that every budget vps host is using openvz just to oversell.
    Last edited by xtrac568; 06-21-2009 at 03:21 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by continuation View Post
    I understand that the "burst" RAM is not guaranteed. What I'm trying to understand is that if the "guaranteed" RAM is really guaranteed.

    For example, is it possible for someone to sell 12 "512M guaranteed, 1G burstable" plans on a 4G RAM node? If it is, then the "guaranteed 512M" isn't really guaranteed, because 12*512 is 6G, larger than the amount of physical RAM on that node.
    Sorry I misunderstood your question. Yes, it is possible. As far as we're concerned, we're preventing this situation by limiting the number of VPS per server to 8.

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  10. #10
    UNIXy, if you are going to all this trouble of disabling burst RAM, restricting users of your node, and not overselling.. why not just use Xen /facetious
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavC View Post
    UNIXy, if you are going to all this trouble of disabling burst RAM, restricting users of your node, and not overselling.. why not just use Xen /facetious
    Here are some reasons:
    • Lower overhead because of the "container" approach
    • No swap means better raw performance especially when not overselling
    • OpenVZ has quasi-native IO performance
    • Has better management tools (vzdump and vz*)
    • Easier to setup and better native backup tools


    All of this helps us focus efforts on pleasing customers. With that said, we also have Xen servers for customers that request it.

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  12. #12
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    Well it is possible that vps are oversold but a good privider never do that.
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  13. #13
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    Unfortunately due to the nature of OpenVZ, a lot of providers do oversell. Some oversell to the point that VPS accounts become almost unusable.

    You'll find a lot will also offer large amounts of RAM, but very low CPU allocations, in the hope that you'll be a very light user.

    Very few hosts are going to openly admit they oversell, and some will just lie outright and say they don't. The only way to really tell, is to read the reviews, and try out the service!
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  14. #14
    I could almost guarantee if it's OpenVZ, then it's oversold. The actual variable you're looking at is how responsible they are at overselling.

    For example, FSCKVPS oversells, but their servers are very, very fast even though they are.

    There is no problem with overselling. It makes a server actually utilized. However, it does matter the amount of overselling.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeharding View Post
    I could almost guarantee if it's OpenVZ, then it's oversold. The actual variable you're looking at is how responsible they are at overselling.

    For example, FSCKVPS oversells, but their servers are very, very fast even though they are.

    There is no problem with overselling. It makes a server actually utilized. However, it does matter the amount of overselling.
    I'm sorry but thats completely wrong. We use OpenVZ, does that mean we must be overselling? No.

    You cant 'almost guarantee' as you don't have first-hand experience with the operations of any other VPS host.

    I know many providers, who like ourselves will refuse to oversell on principle. Even budget, or unmanaged VPS providers don't have to oversell to turn a profit you know.

    I'll admit that there are a lot of vps hosts that do oversell....but a lot of shared and reseller hosts also oversell, its just the way it is.
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  16. #16
    I was implying that almost all oversell if they have to potential -- to turn over a larger profit. Which doesn't have to affect the customer if oversold properly.

    Sorry if I implied you had to oversell.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeharding View Post
    I was implying that almost all oversell if they have to potential -- to turn over a larger profit. Which doesn't have to affect the customer if oversold properly.

    Sorry if I implied you had to oversell.
    No worries. I do see your point, there a lot that do oversell. Looking in the offers forum, and seeing a 512MB RAM VPS for $5 a month does kind of give it away
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  18. #18
    The blind prejudice towards the concept of overselling some people show astounds me immensely!

    Overselling when done properly benefits the client a lot, and there are plenty in the business who do it properly, enough at least to make this unrelenting stigma irrelevant.

    Overselling allows clients to pay less for resources that they use less often.

    I don't understand the difficulty of the concept.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by xorpt View Post
    Overselling allows clients to pay less for resources that they use less often.

    Agreed. With huge, powerful servers, oversubscription (that word has a slightly less negative connotation) is a must. Oversubscription of any amount on a wimpy server is sheer folly.

    When you look at populations, the larger populations become more statistically predictable as a group. The converse is true with smaller populations. That's why oversubscription can work on a big node, but causes problems on a small node.

    If you have a monster server with 8 processors, 32GB of RAM, and a 20 disk 15K RPM SAS RAID10 backing it, you can have a larger population of VPS on the node. If you track your usage on the node properly, you can leave enough capacity to absorb the usual spikes.

    The common argument against oversubcription is "What if everyone used everything they purchased all at the same time?" That's a farce. It's not going to happen unless it is just a single client using all those VPS as a cluster. Who has *that* on their server?

    That said, Xen is generally less oversubscribed simply because the ability to oversubscribe RAM in Xen is not yet fully developed. That's the primary reason you see Xen VPS that are roughly 6 to 10 times more expensive than an "equivalent" OpenVZ/Virtuozzo VPS. You can expect pricing of Xen VPS to come down as soon as that feature works right.

    I don't see a whole lot of people objecting to lower prices.
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  20. #20
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    OpenVZ providers do not need to oversell to turn a profit, but some do.

    This is really not overselling but rather misconfiguration, since it will cause instability and poor performance.

    That said, always look for a provider that will give you a money back guarantee and will supply you with a fast server. If the server feels sluggish, and its not your local network connection at fault, something is wrong with the server setup. There are many settings that could result in poor service, whether the technology is Xen, VMWare or VZ.

    It doesn't have to be oversold to be slow, and the technology doesn't really matter as much as the people behind the service.
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  21. #21
    Thank you guys for all this insight into OpenVZ, XEN and the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by advantagecom View Post
    If you have a monster server with 8 processors, 32GB of RAM, and a 20 disk 15K RPM SAS RAID10 backing it, you can have a larger population of VPS on the node. If you track your usage on the node properly, you can leave enough capacity to absorb the usual spikes.
    OMG! I do not want to be part of this. There will be so much overhead on that monster. Let's take an average VPS of 512MB RAM, and 25% overselling. I take 2GB for the host and for spikes - and my server will be handling 75x

    • non-optimized Apache2, bloat-loaded will nearly all modules
    • fully bloated wordpress "installations"
    • non-optimized MySQL daemons (major I/O)
    • even more crappy scripts, which the customer found somewhere


    I do not want to imagine what happens to overall-performance when the majority not-so-techie-crowd will use Windows, using RDP - or non-brainers starting their full-blown KDE there, just because CLI sucks...

    Don't get me wrong, these servers are great if the guest (or the guest's administrator) does know what to do.

    Personally I wonder why there are no (budget-)providers having a dedicated MySQL-node, firewalled to their VPS nodes - so not every damn node needs its own mysqld running. I just saw one...

  22. #22
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    Personally I wonder why there are no (budget-)providers having a dedicated MySQL-node, firewalled to their VPS nodes - so not every damn node needs its own mysqld running.
    That's a good idea. I do something similar on my personal server, which has 10 or so virtual servers running on it, using Linux-Vserver (server is shared by 4 people, so they each have their own vserver, plus other things). I've got a cPanel vserver, and all the others use its MySQL.

    The only problem with a shared MySQLd is that control panels like cPanel and Plesk need root access, and hence need their own MySQLd. It'd be perfect for VPSes with manually managed sites, though.

  23. #23
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    Short answer -
    If the entity has been around for a while, and no one is complaining about performance, they either don't oversell or know how to do it effectively.

    Just because OpenVZ is used doesn't mean it's oversold. I've planned, and used, many facilities that put a very set number of VE's on a node, (quite a few are regulars on WHT). They put 2-5 on a high powered node, get a good profit per server going, and have happy customers that stay.

    If the entity grossly oversells, they generally don't last long. Clients either get fed up, or equipment breaks (should be noted most blatant over sellers usually have no backup strategy) and they never recover, folks scatter away, and other companies absorb or outright buy the flailing company.

    That's the normal MO. Easily verified on thread after thread after thread on WHT alone, not to mention other similar communities.

    A very common abusively overselling company's inevitable thread life cycle:

    "Node / Network down > Cries for help > Insufficient DR discovery > Cries of dissatisfaction > Wait w/ no resolution > Insults thrown back and fourth > Clients scatter to the winds or endure company merge"

    Many can sadly testify to the ever-repeating chain, especially with the kiddie hosts.
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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by missiontobe View Post
    OMG! I do not want to be part of this. There will be so much overhead on that monster. Let's take an average VPS of 512MB RAM, and 25% overselling. I take 2GB for the host and for spikes - and my server will be handling 75x

    • non-optimized Apache2, bloat-loaded will nearly all modules
    • fully bloated wordpress "installations"
    • non-optimized MySQL daemons (major I/O)
    • even more crappy scripts, which the customer found somewhere
    I have to respectfully disagree with you here. You're making the common mistaken assumption that the majority of customers are resource abusers, hogs, and inept. That simply isn't the case. After dealing with thousands of customers, my experience has been that only a very small percentage fit the profile you outlined above. That small percentage usually falls into the "budget" category as well, but even as a percentage of "budget" users, the number is still small. It happens less on higher priced services.

    If a host runs into someone that fits that profile above, then maybe the host needs to talk to that customer and explain a better way for the customer to optimize their use of their VPS. We've done it and it is almost always very well received by the customer.

    Additionally, when was the last time *you* ran a node with those huge specifications? I think you're underestimating just how much it can handle. If you're coming from a world of a homebuilt system with 1 to 4 processors, a single disk (SATA 7.2K RPM), and 1GB to 4GB of RAM, that just isn't a useful comparison point. When you put $20K into a node with huge specifications, you don't want it idling much.

    A poorly managed node or a poorly managed hosting company will always be garbage, regardless of oversubscription.

    As others have pointed out, if nobody is complaining or if users are praising the performance even when the node is "full", then what does it matter what capacity utilization model is employed by the hosting company?
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  25. #25
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    Are OpenVZ VPS generally oversold?
    Short answer: "Yes!"
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  26. #26
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    As has been mentioned several times, one of the largest selling points behind the Virtuozzo line of VPS products is the ability to oversell it. There's a lot of other features, but by far and long, the dealbreaker 9/10 times is the fact that it handles memory caching so well that it's almost a crime *not* to oversell it.

    From my experience, there's good things, and bad things about this. *if* you have a good, trustworthy provider that REALLY knows how VZ works and is able to take advantage of the file/memory caching mechanisms, it's a pretty cool setup. Burstable memory is an awesome option, but it's a double edged sword as well.

    However, on the bad side, I'd say the majority of VZ operators simply don't know how to do configure their VEs right, keep everything cached the way it should be and maintain it properly. VZ is a pretty complex beast of a virtualization platform, and if you aren't constantly maintaining it and VERY familiar with it's operations, it's easy for things to get out of hand.

    As an example, one of the most fine tuned VZ setups i've ever seen was mostly vanilla VPSs or Plesk VPSs. Since VZ installs Plesk via it's cached template mechanism, the filespace usage is tiny and the memory footprint is very small as well. As long as everyone stayed in line with the updates via the cached templates, it was a beautiful world.

    Now, cPanel was introduced to the same platform and things got bad, fast. The caching mechanisms rely on being able to take a piece of software or an OS, and package it so VZ can apply it as a cached template. As soon as you start breaking files out of that specific state, the caching is pretty much worthless. When you factor in the varying ways that cPanel can be configured, this is nigh impossible.

    When your provider first sets things up, he'll take all the resources on the node, figure out how to split that up evenly, and then factor in a certain percentage of overselling based on either a: pricepoints he needs to hit, or b: resource consumption of a few sample VPSs. When you first set everything up and cache it, you get one metric. However after many automatic updates, full cPanel rebuilds via UPCP and apache easyupdates, you lose that memory caching, which skews the initial setup numbers. When that happens, you start having more people "burst" into their burstable ram. When the node hits an OOM condition, it starts killing processes, service declines greatly and well, things just go bad.

    So, my .02 is this. If you go with a provider that handles all OS and Frontend updates for you, and you can get them to say weather or not the keep them cached. (basically a fully managed VPS you'll never have root on), then it can be a good thing. On the other hand, if you want a solid set of guaranteed resources that you *KNOW* you'll get exactly what your sold, then I'd stay away from VZ in general.

    One benefit to using Xen based VPSs is that you get your hardset allocation that you know will not be oversold and then you get the ability to use swapfiles as well for those "ouch" emergencies, just like a real dedicated server. On VZ, you're not going to have that swap space as the burstable area *is* the swap space, and that's shared with other customers.

    I'd also like to point out that the "it only hurts if everyone bursts at once" argument is pretty much a falsehood. It fully depends on how the setup is implemented in the first place. If your provider is cheap and way oversold, it may only take 1 or 2 VEs bursting to step on not only your memory, but everyone else as well.

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  27. #27
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    While OpenVZ is loved by the greedy oversellers, there are other reasons to use it - for example:

    1. It's FLOSS - no license payments required (unlike eg: vmware)
    2. It's part of mainline linux kernel (unlike eg: linux-vserver)
    3. It's more efficient (users share a kernel so less memory is needed overall, and hard disk access is usually faster since you're not using the lvm stack or even worse, disk image files)
    4. It's easy to deploy, and easy to do live backups (vzdump).

    Saying everyone who uses OpenVZ oversells is like saying everyone who runs Windows is infected - sure there are a few, but it is by no means always the case - very rarely is something always true anyway.
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  28. #28
    I've really never understood the big deal about overselling on OpenVZ, Xen, Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, WIndows, CentOS, blah....

    If it is being done correctly, taking into account that not everyone on the server is EVER going to use ALL of their resources at the EXACT same time, then what is the big deal? If bringing down the cost for customers is really that big of deal, by doing well managed overselling, then wow. Some people will bring "morals" to the table, and then I say pfft, are you trying to change the world or something? Your cellphone company oversells, your electric company oversells, phone, internet, etc. The only people generally not effected by overselling is the Amish I would guess.

    Given the current situation with the economy, I surely don't see a problem with well managed overselling. If no one is complaining, what is the big deal with a company overselling?

    That begin said, OpenVZ is easier to "oversell" on, so usually, it's given the short answer, "yes, openvz = oversold".

    Now once overselling actually "works" in Xen, the same can be said about it. Thing is, its still not working "yet".

    Go with the right provider, and you shouldn't have to worry about "guaranteed" and all of that other stuff, things will just "work".

    If you really need 512MB of RAM every second although you're only using 200MB and only hit 300MB after using your VPS for 2 months, and then instantly having it drop back down to 200MB after say an Apache rebuild completes, well then there is a over 200MB RAM that is NEVER being used, and 100MB of RAM that was used once in a 2 month period. If the host takes this into account correctly, and given that the node is powerful enough to handle a few people using all of their resources at the exact same time, you shouldn't have a problem.

    This is complicated by small end pentiums/xeons with say 4GB of RAM. Larger nodes are not as effected as bad, however truth be told, the most powerful hardware can be taken down if not managed correctly.

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