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06-18-2009, 01:04 PM #1Junior Guru Wannabe
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Mosso's Cloud sites or Cartika's HAL Reseller?
Hello,
Today I have compared Mosso's Cloud Sites offer to Cartika's HAL Reseller offer and both have drawbacks. Mosso's control panel doesn't look customizable for the end-user, they don't accept Paypal and don't provide a "Sign Up" application for new customers to join. Cartika's price per GB is twice as much as Mosso, and I wish their uptime were better. What do you think is best?
Thanks,
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06-18-2009, 02:03 PM #2Web Hosting Master
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Generally, Cartika's HAL should be considered more reliable. If you check status.mosso.com and the announcements of Cartika's forum, you will see... Mosso seems to have issues EVERY day...
As for Cartika's uptime - last month they had physical transfer of the servers in their own datacenter suite inside colo4dallas - they could pause uptime stats and be close 99.99% for that month, but they prefered not to do so...
Some other point also to consider: Cartika is using H-Sphere and if you wish to move on the future this would be quite easy (ask Cartika to do the export and your new provider will migrate your sites), while Mosso is using proprieatary cp - if you wish to move, then you have to transfer each site manually.
But both choices should be rock solid - both companies are famous for their support and reliable service.
Good luck!▌ Managed.gr cloud hosting, paas, vps, dedicated, domain registration on global datacenters.
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06-18-2009, 04:04 PM #3Junior Guru Wannabe
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Thanks!
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06-19-2009, 05:05 AM #4Web Hosting Master
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All HSphere providers have a clustered cloud-like hosting environment Incase you are looking for more options
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06-19-2009, 05:10 AM #5Web Hosting Master
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Don't go with mosso -- trust me, save your time. I currently have the OpenVPN website hosted at mosso and they have been terrible! Back to using our own cluster...so much for saving some money.
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06-19-2009, 05:56 AM #6Junior Guru Wannabe
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@Yash-JH: Thanks, I'll take a look at JodoHost.
@RackPoint-Morgan: Could you give more details about the problems you had with Mosso?
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06-19-2009, 09:55 AM #7Web Hosting Master
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I've seen issues reported by customers in regards to Mosso, but not for Cartika. From the perception I get, Cartika is very customer service oriented which is just as important as the providing the service itself..This can be attributed to Mosso being owned by Rackspace, which I would say their dedicated server solutions is what they have their eyes on the most instead of Mosso. If you haven't already done so, send them both a few pre-sales questions..
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06-19-2009, 10:02 AM #8Web Hosting Evangelist
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All HSphere providers have a clustered cloud-like hosting environment
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06-19-2009, 02:10 PM #9Location = SoapBox
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Yash, you should know better then this and should know me better then this.. I would not advertise an hsphere standard cluster as a cloud, etc..
we offer both standard clustered hosting
http://www.cartikahosting.com/cluste...phere-hosting/
and the HAL, cloud hosting
http://www.cartikahosting.com/HAL/
A standard hsphere cluster is nowhere near the same as the HAL offering
Hello Mike,
This isnt exactly true. Mosso also charges for CPU usage, where we do not. So, our cost per GB usually works out to roughly the same or less. Now, with Mosso, if you have a poorly written script, they will hammer you (rightfully so) with CPU usage fees. If you have a poorly written script with us, we will work with you to fix it or you will need to move it off our system...
and I wish their uptime were better.
after that though, the primary issue is the 3rd party monitoring service we are using (pingdom) - they measure in 2 mins increments - so, a 99.99% uptime SLA can only accommodate a 2 mins outage.. if we have a 1 second outage, or if 1 node fails and the monitoring session is tied to that node in a sticky session - the monitoring service will automatically flag this as a 2 min outage - when in reality - it may have been a 1 second outage, or no outage at all while requests are sent to other nodes.. (sticky sessions are required in load balancing shared servers, as many client sites rely on sessions - what this mean is if the node they are tied to fails, users will need to let their session expire or hard refresh to force a new session onto a new server - this is simply how load balancing must work - this is not considered an outage, this is however considered a session loss for any user with a session tied to a server that went down)
We will either need to find a more granual 3rd party monitoring service (ie something that can monitor down to the second), or we will need to change our uptime SLA for HAL - as it is getting too difficult to maintain a 99.99% uptime metric with 2 min monitors - actually - its pretty well impossible.. we are happy to use our own monitoring system, but, clients do not always trust those numbers (I can understand this) - so, if we must use 3rd party monitoring systems, and if they only have the capability to monitor down to 1 or 2 mins intervals - then we cannot possibly SLA a 99.99% uptime as it is mission impossible with 1-2 mins monitoring intervals to achieve this...Last edited by cartika-andrew; 06-19-2009 at 02:16 PM.
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06-22-2009, 12:57 AM #10Web Hosting Master
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Andrew, I simply stated a Hsphere Reseller solution (properly done) offers a clustered, cloud-like environment for Reseller Hosting. I never said your service was worse or better. You can claim your HAL offerings are way better than the competition. All I am saying is you still use the HSphere-based clustered control panel to offer what you do offer!
I don't know how good your service is, I am sure it's great. Since you brought our service into question, I will also state that we too offer a clustered, cloud based Reseller Hosting solution (based on Hsphere) at a different price point that has consistently delivered great uptime and performance.init.me - Build, Share & Embed
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06-22-2009, 06:24 AM #11Junior Guru Wannabe
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06-22-2009, 06:42 AM #12Web Hosting Master
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Yeah, this things confuse me a lot. It would great if somebody clear the air on the differences
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06-22-2009, 06:50 AM #13Web Hosting Master
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The best way to compare is to contact the providers themselves, as the term is used too generally.
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06-22-2009, 08:18 AM #14Location = SoapBox
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Yash, this is simply confusing the consumer.. A standard hsphere services cluster is not the same as utility hosting.. (call it a cloud or a grid or whatever you like)
I never said your service was worse or better. You can claim your HAL offerings are way better than the competition.
Can you actually please show me where I said our HAL system was "better" then the competition? or heck, where I said it was "better" then a standard hsphere cluster?
All I said was that is is "different" then a standard hsphere reseller cluster
In fact, I do not myself believe one is "better" then the other - which is clearly why we offer both. However, I do believe that each solution has its place and that different customers with different requirements will and do opt for different offerings based on their requirements...
All I am saying is you still use the HSphere-based clustered control panel to offer what you do offer!
1) a single server, or
2) you can run hsphere on several servers - each running a different service (think your reseller accounts and our standard reseller accounts), or,
3) in the case of our HAL system, you can run hsphere over arrays of load balanced servers/vps with centralized storage..
As you can pretty easily see, the control panel is the same in each instance, but, the architecture dramatically varies..
actually, the very basis of cloud technology is the separation of application layers from architecture - and utilizing those application layers to spread sites and services across a theoretical infinite number of nodes (virtual or physical) as well as scale storage requirements ondemand from a few GBs to 1000s of TB's if required...
I don't know how good your service is, I am sure it's great.
Since you brought our service into question,
I will also state that we too offer a clustered, cloud based Reseller Hosting solution (based on Hsphere) at a different price point that has consistently delivered great uptime and performance.
Again, I am hoping and expecting this to be a simple misunderstanding - maybe you have not look at our HAL offering and maybe you feel we are just rebranding a standard hsphere offering? in which case, no big deal at all...
Yes, you do offer a clustered based reseller hosting package. It is exactly similar to our clustered based reseller hosting package - and yes, you have a different price point then us (are cheaper) and on the whole, seem to offer a great service..
Having said this, as far as I am aware, you do not offer a load balanced, scalable offering with centralized storage do you? a solution where you can scale a user beyond the limitations of a single server? call this what you will - a cloud, HAL, a grid, etc, etc, etc - but, it is what Mosso, Mediatemple, Amazon, our HAL offering, etc - all offer - your hsphere services cluster is not the same thing - and saying it is the way you are is not only confusing myself - but, is also confusing consumers... simply running hsphere does not determine your architecture as far as I am aware...www.cartika.com
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06-22-2009, 08:38 AM #15Location = SoapBox
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Hello Mike,
clouds, grids, HAL, whatever - all represent a certain architecture...
Yash has caused some confusion here - and I am still hopefull its an honest mistake on his part, vs competitive type of action...
It is actually pretty straight forward...
A standard hsphere services cluster (which we have been offering and selling for years - as has Yash at Jodohost) - is a group of servers, each running a specific service
For example
Server1 = web
Server2 = mysql
Server3 = email
Server4 = DNS1
Server5 = DNS2
Server6 = Control Panel
A services cluster like the one described is what Yash runs over at Jodohost and is what Cartika runs as our standard clustered hosting offering. This technology offered some very large benefits over the previous legacy systems (ie single server cpanel setups, etc) - and companies like Jodohost and Cartika grew very quickly and did very well because of this competitive advantage...
Over the last few years, the trend in the industry has been moving towards utility types of models, scalable solutions, ondemand computing, redundancy, etc, etc, etc.. call this whatever you like - some call it grids, some clouds, etc, etc, etc..
In a "cloud" type of setup, you utilize a physical and/or virtual nodes to create a redundant, scalable environment. Typically, load balancers and SANs are added to the infrastructure - but, they are not always built this way...
In a "cloud" or utility based model, the architecture would look a little different... you cannot speak "servers" anymore - you need to speak arrays or groups or "clouds" as it were...
so
array 1 = web service (can be spread over multipe servers or VPS instances and typically connected to SANs)
array 2 = mysql service (can be spread over multiple servers or VPS instances and may be connected to SANs)
array 3 = eMail service (can be spread over multiple servers or VPS instances and typically is connected to SANs)
now, some still yet do this differently - where they will have the following
VPS instance - with email, DB and web - replicated over 2-10 identical VPS instances with requests load balancing between the instances..
the distinguishing feature of these systems is the ability to add more resources ondemand.. if a site gets massive traffic bursts, a user is able to pay for the bursting, when they need it.. so, if they need the equivalent of a $10 hosting account 11 months a year, but, need 3 dedicated server worth of resources for 1 month of the year - they just pay for their usage when they use it.. in legacy hosting systems, customers would need to migrate to dedicated environments during their peak periods, or they would need to pay to maintain dedicated environments all year, even when they didnt need them..
Having said all of this, these cloud systems are new. I would not say the technology is perfect yet.. although the technology is designed to remove single points of failure by introducing redundancy - and the technology is designed to accommodate large bursts in a utility type of format - the technology does introduce certain complexities. For example, you are now dealing with SAN systems which themselves do have some limitations. Often times VPS technology is introduced into these systems, which adds yet another application layer on top of the physical architecture - which then typically has yet another application layer (ie hsphere or Mossos control panel, or some are even trying to use cpanel for this, etc) - and well - the end result is an added layer of complexity..
I am very proud of our HAL/cloud system, but, I think it has been successful because we are careful to only direct specific types of customers there.. for the vast majority of hosting customers, a more traditional hosting account is probably still the best fit.. which is exactly why we still offer our standard clustered hosting accounts and why we do not expect them to be going anywhere anytime soon..
hopefully this helps ...Last edited by cartika-andrew; 06-22-2009 at 08:41 AM.
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06-22-2009, 08:50 AM #16Web Hosting Master
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High Availability, Cloud and Clustering are not really the same thing - they can be used together, they can be used in the same context... but they're different.
As far as I am aware, H-Sphere is merely 'clustered'. I.e. It has separate, multiple machines for different uses. If one machine fails, the rest of the cluster continues working as normal. Of course, you could host your H-Sphere cluster on a series of Virtual Machines on a cloud hosting platform to help mitigate against hardware loss, but I'd be unsure of the performance...
High Availability can apply to cloud hosting, it can apply to load-balanced hosting, it can apply to automatic failover... it's just a name for a collection of methodologies of making your website... high availability :pDarren Lingham - Stablepoint Hosting
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06-22-2009, 08:56 AM #17Location = SoapBox
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actually, the standard hsphere install does not do this.. if a server or service fails, that server or service is down until it is brought back up...
Of course, you could host your H-Sphere cluster on a series of Virtual Machines on a cloud hosting platform to help mitigate against hardware loss, but I'd be unsure of the performance...
High Availability can apply to cloud hosting, it can apply to load-balanced hosting, it can apply to automatic failover... it's just a name for a collection of methodologies of making your website... high availability :pwww.cartika.com
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06-22-2009, 09:01 AM #18Web Hosting Master
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Darren Lingham - Stablepoint Hosting
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06-22-2009, 09:16 AM #19Location = SoapBox
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Hi Darren - I completely agree with you... just trying to clarify what we offer is a little different then that..
truth me told, we did not want to market our system as a "cloud" - but, since we already offer a pretty highly available clustered setup - it caused too much confusion - we needed to brand this new system as something "different" that would better enable the consumer to understand the differences in our offerings - unfortunately or fortunately - "cloud" seems to be the accepted terminology amongst consumers for this type of offering..www.cartika.com
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06-23-2009, 06:28 PM #20Web Hosting Master
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Andrew, I believe you seek to cause confusion by relating your "HAL" services with a true grid platform like Mosso.
Your HAL service is a simple extension of HSphere. Hsphere already has the ability for SAN storage (which is nothing new in the industry) and load-balancers. So if you are saying you have innovated and offered something drastically different from an HSphere Cluster, than I beg to differ. Also, your load-balancing is clearly limited to Linux hosting, which is an HSphere limitiation
I am very well educated with the terms load-balancing, cloud networks and their capabilities. I have worked on a very large corporate cloud network as a Software Engineer (at Cisco Systems) and have seen load-balancers in action!
To begin with, I have never seen the utility of load-balancers in a classic, shared hosting scenario (whatever the load per server is). In class shared hosting, the point of failure is usually NOT the hardware (and you know this). We run quality, redundant hardware at JodoHost (such as redundant disk arrays, servers with redundant parts and a network with redundant routers, etc). I am sure you run a similar, well maintain hardware/metwork Coming to my point, with shared hosting (where websites are hosting by different companies on the same server), the points of failure are largely software related. And for software-related issues, an experienced Server administration team, working 24x7 is required to maintain good uptime. Proactive measuring of the websites, on these servers help! That's what we do, and I'm sure you do too.
So I'd claim, that load-balanced web servers (which you dont offer on Windows) will not improve uptime significantly. We've maintained 99.9%+ uptime on our servers, with simply redundant hardware and a redundant network. Load-balancing best works when a SINGLE application has to be scaled over a several servers.. Load-balancing was never really designed/intended for several or 50-100 independent domains being load-balanced on a server, as its simply not as effective!
Additionally, you claim you offer a truly scalable solution. The only people that can claim to do so, are Mosso and true-grid providers which are very much larger than Cartika, have alot more man-power and have a huge technological leap over your services. Scalable storage means nothing these days (in a shared hosting environment again) when you can't scale the processing power and RAM on your servers infinitely too!
Very simply Andrew, your services are not fully scalable and are in fact no more scalable than any HSphere cluster's services. And i would argue that load-balancing doesn't add any significant uptime advantage Our HSphere cluster is just as scalable, and we too have consistently delivered great uptime and service at our price pointLast edited by Yash-JH; 06-23-2009 at 06:38 PM.
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06-23-2009, 07:44 PM #21Web Hosting Evangelist
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Wow, simply amazed by your replies lately yash. First to interject yourself into this thread when no one brought up your company and make a comment such as in post #4 of this thread that "All HSphere providers have a clustered cloud-like hosting environment Incase you are looking for more options" is not only rude and deceiving, but it's borderline solicitation in these forums.
Then once the differences are made clear between completely load balanced and redundant services…you still come back and talk "smack". Sorry sounds like sour grapes to me as an outsider. Now I will say that I am a bit biased when it comes to Cartika as I have been a long time user of their services, but I do know the difference between their HAL offerings and a standard H-Sphere cluster…and you don't have such a setup. I'm not saying you couldn't, but you don't, and they are not the same, so lets stop deceiving people by saying they are the same. Whether you see the value in it is beside the point and to state things like "I have worked on a very large corporate cloud network as a Software Engineer (at Cisco Systems) and have seen load-balancers in action!" means absolutely nothing to me, just as me saying I "used" to make 80K a year from one website that took about 15 minutes of work a week means nothing to you. We all know there are people working at McDonalds that "used" to do other things.
The rest of your post above is again "sour grapes" in my opinion and sure doesn't reflect well on you or your company when you have to try to tear down another company to try to make yourself look better. Especially when you have to compare them to another company instead of your own to do so. Sorry, just an outside opinion looking in. I have noticed in another post recently where there was deception on your part…not looking well on you. I'm not trying to get into a pissing match..but you haven't been doing you or your company any good in threads with comments like this.
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06-23-2009, 10:48 PM #22Web Hosting Master
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tcstatic, I am glad you are a loyal Cartika customer
Your post is nothing but a personal attack on me, which you are free to do of course.
However, my post is not an attack, rather objective debate.init.me - Build, Share & Embed
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06-24-2009, 12:12 AM #23Location = SoapBox
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actually Yash - our architecture is pretty close to the MT grid and the Mosso cloud.. funny enough, they also have a control panel on top of their architecture..
Your HAL service is a simple extension of HSphere. Hsphere already has the ability for SAN storage (which is nothing new in the industry) and load-balancers.
http://citrix.com/English/ps2/produc...ntentID=683148
and I quote:
"Citrix XenServer™ is the only enterprise-class, cloud-proven server virtualization platform that delivers the critical features of live migration and centralized multi-server management..."
We are actually in the process of integrating this within hsphere so resellers can allocate and sell Xenserver based clouds running hsphere, right from their control panel.. you are right Yash - there is nothing different from what you offer
So if you are saying you have innovated and offered something drastically different from an HSphere Cluster, than I beg to differ.
Also, your load-balancing is clearly limited to Linux hosting, which is an HSphere limitiation
To begin with, I have never seen the utility of load-balancers in a classic, shared hosting scenario (whatever the load per server is). In class shared hosting, the point of failure is usually NOT the hardware (and you know this). Coming to my point, with shared hosting (where websites are hosting by different companies on the same server), the points of failure are largely software related. And for software-related issues, an experienced Server administration team, working 24x7 is required to maintain good uptime. Proactive measuring of the websites, on these servers help! That's what we do, and I'm sure you do too.
Additionally, you claim you offer a truly scalable solution. The only people that can claim to do so, are Mosso and true-grid providers which are very much larger than Cartika, have alot more man-power and have a huge technological leap over your services. Scalable storage means nothing these days (in a shared hosting environment again) when you can't scale the processing power and RAM on your servers infinitely too!
So, Mosso is a fraction of the size of Google and Amazon - am I to assume this somehow changes their architecture that they are offering?
Very simply Andrew, your services are not fully scalable and are in fact no more scalable than any HSphere cluster's services.
And i would argue that load-balancing doesn't add any significant uptime advantage
Wonder why Amazon offers load balancing with their cloud.. actually, they tell us
"Elastic Load Balancing – Elastic Load Balancing automatically distributes incoming application traffic across multiple Amazon EC2 instances. It enables you to achieve even greater fault tolerance in your applications, seamlessly providing the amount of load balancing capacity needed in response to incoming application traffic. Elastic Load Balancing detects unhealthy instances within a pool and automatically reroutes traffic to healthy instances until the unhealthy instances have been restored. You can enable Elastic Load Balancing within a single Availability Zone or across multiple zones for even more consistent application performance. Amazon CloudWatch can be used to capture a specific Elastic Load Balancer’s operational metrics, such as request count and request latency, at no additional cost beyond Elastic Load Balancing fees. See Elastic Load Balancing for more details."
Our HSphere cluster is just as scalable, and we too have consistently delivered great uptime and service at our price point
Launching, running, maintaining and evolving this sort of system is a significant investment Yash - and a great challenge - I encourage and challenge you to try - instead of sitting back and trying to minimize our efforts and our offering..www.cartika.com
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06-24-2009, 12:54 AM #24Web Hosting Master
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Again, you choose Marketing hype to distort the facts and are trying to potray your HSphere-based reseller solution as a grid solution, which it IS NOT!
sure hsphere supports load balancers and SAN's.. last I checked though, hsphere does not support mysql clustering, mysql farms -
nor does it support Xenserver and virtualization
"Citrix XenServer™ is the only enterprise-class, cloud-proven server virtualization platform that delivers the critical features of live migration and centralized multi-server management..."
And for the record, we too offer a scalable, enterprise-class Virtualization platform, with live migration and centralized-server management - its called Virtuozzo. I don't want to get into a Virtuozzo vs XenServer war.. there are plenty of threads here but let's say that both virtualization platforms have its benefits! By the way, we have been doing this for over 3 years now! To me, it would seem like you are a bit late here with the whole Virtualization boom
We are actually in the process of integrating this within hsphere so resellers can allocate and sell Xenserver based clouds running hsphere, right from their control panel.. you are right Yash - there is nothing different from what you offer
And.. we too offer a Virtualized accounts directly from Hsphere, with similar features, without the marketing hype! Hsphere is a wonderful control panel, and providing what you mentioned is built into Hsphere!
Wonderful - what happens when one of your shared customers need 6 CPU worth of resources and 8 GB of RAM Yash? don't even bother answering Yash, as we both know the answer to this..
Since they have a single application, load-balancing and SAN storage would truly make it an effective solution.
Andrew, are you implying that your HSphere HAL Reseller Cluster, could handle a website with 8GB of RAM and 6CPU worth of processing, along with other websites on your standard HAL Cluster?
Once again, your cluster isn't a grid! Stop selling it like that!
Wonder why Amazon offers load balancing with their cloud.. actually, they tell usLast edited by Yash-JH; 06-24-2009 at 01:08 AM.
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06-24-2009, 01:02 AM #25Location = SoapBox
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Yash,
I am not going to go back and forth with you any longer.. I completely disagree with pretty much everything you have said - and I am very very disappointed with the direction you have taken here..
If you want to try and minimize our offerings, wonderful - that is certainly your right to do this..
Try and convince yourself and everyone else you offer the same thing - I actually prefer if you do this - it does not take a genious to figure out you are out on a limb here..
We recently (very recently) changed the name of our offering from HAL to the HAL Cloud - dont you think there is a reason we did that? Keep watching our site Yash - and thank you very much for your feedback and comments -www.cartika.com
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