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  1. #1

    Q8300, 8GB ram and it's not enough

    I'm currently running a very large (vBulletin) forum on a single server. Up to now, I've been upgrading as the forum grows, tweaking what can be tweaked and at the moment, for about two hours every day (during peak time) the CPU maxes out and the webserver starts dropping connections. This isn't a massive problem at the moment, you just have to refresh more at these times. However as the traffic grows, this will only get worse.

    I'm looking at my future upgrade options (the site shows no signs of slowing growth).

    As far as I can tell, I have two options:

    1. Upgrade to a more powerful single server
    - a. Core i7
    - b. Dual (two CPUs on one board) Core2 Quad Xeon
    - c. Dual (two CPUs on one board) AMD Opteron

    2. Two server solution, one server for MySQL, other server for memcache, xcache and webservice.

    The former option is, obviously, much less expensive. Though i7 is incredibly expensive, it will offer a significant improvement. However, I'll most likely be facing the same problem in 6 months to a year...

    Also, I rent. I am wondering whether to continue renting, or just front the money and colocate.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Paraguay; 05-08-2009 at 12:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    If your needs keep growing and maxing out the hardware you have while you are doing everything you can to tweak then moving to a two server setup or one "monster server" may be your best bet.

    A single CPU quad core for each machine will most likely suffice but if your budget can allow for it moving to Dual CPU Quad core now may save you from future growing pains. Equip the DB with fast SATA or SAS drives with a RAID setup and plenty of memory and your load will be better off spread between your two machines.

    With a low number of servers it is often not worth colocating but you can go ahead and work the numbers with a host and see what the price differential is between dedicated and colocated.

  3. #3
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    Separating SQL from Web is the best practice as SQL takes a lot of resources
    >> Melisa Z. - mzilic@maximumasp.com
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  4. #4
    I would suggest def to go a split sever setup. web and mysql make sure the mysql is a SAS Drive setup. Also make sure you have proper backups of your database as for a forum the data is changing in virtually real time so real time backups are pretty much required.

    From this solution as your forum grows you can scale to multiple web and mysql servers with load balancers and such.

    So something like a Q9400 Web Frontend and a Dual 5420 or 5520 backend database server would work beautifully and give you the growth and expandability you need without jumping servers every few months and maybe even providers.

    Also make sure your server is secure by having a proper firewall and web application firewall otherwise your site is open to hacking.
    Jay

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumASP - Melisa View Post
    Separating SQL from Web is the best practice as SQL takes a lot of resources

    I agree with this. If you were to separate your resources, you will fair much better, and, not need a super high end machine for both the web and sql server. Can you post your stats for your forum, so that we can see what kind of usage you have right now?

    Another note, what kind of tweaking have you done so far? Perhaps an upgrade is not needed as of yet.
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  6. #6
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    I think a 2 server solution would be best. Colocating is an option, but if you need to upgrade these twice a year then I'm not sure replacing all your hardware twice a year is going to save you much. Unless of course you start going the load balancing route and just keep adding additional servers to accommodate the requirements.

    You might also want to have a look at LiteSpeed. I saw some pretty amazing performance increases with sites that switched to LiteSpeed from Apache.
    I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    36
    If you are running a single cpu / quad core then the obvious choice to me is to step up to the the dual cpu/quad core setup or the i7. I currently manage a new i7 setup from softlayer and it is a pretty nice setup.

    It really depends on how long term your looking for. I personally think that you should try an i7 system and see how it does for you, its a pretty significant upgrade. However, long term you will probably want to go with two server setup.

  8. #8
    Thanks for the advice guys. Honestly, there is still room for tweaking on the server I have to improve performance (switching to a higher performance webserver software, changingg how attachment thumbnails are stored, layout modifications and further caching - currently only using xcache - of php)

    The vast majority of my load is MySQL, and the MySQL itself is working as well as it can under the CPU limitations.

    I'll look into splitting the load across two servers when I next upgrade, with a dedicated SQL server. For now i7 seems really expensive.

  9. #9
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    I concur with most of the other posters -- a split server setup (small cluster) would likely be ideal, as MySQL can be separated that way.

    You may also want to check into configuration-based performance optimization.

    -mike
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  10. #10
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    You have two options. You can approach a provider and ask for a discount on a server bundle (2-3 server with one of them being a monster server, one DB server + switch or internal VLAN) or rent an octal rack (cabinet/8) and purchase your own bandwidth/equipment.

    What is your bandwidth usage?

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraguay View Post
    Thanks for the advice guys. Honestly, there is still room for tweaking on the server I have to improve performance (switching to a higher performance webserver software, changingg how attachment thumbnails are stored, layout modifications and further caching - currently only using xcache - of php)

    The vast majority of my load is MySQL, and the MySQL itself is working as well as it can under the CPU limitations.

    I'll look into splitting the load across two servers when I next upgrade, with a dedicated SQL server. For now i7 seems really expensive.
    This is usually the case in forum setups. There isn't a ton you can do to make mysql use less cpu. The i7 is pretty expensive but they are also pretty new. Softlayer was running specials on them so I would assume other places might as well. There are plenty of things within forum software that can be tweaked or removed to be less tasking on the database. As forums grown the "nice little" features really add up.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkern View Post
    This is usually the case in forum setups. There isn't a ton you can do to make mysql use less cpu. The i7 is pretty expensive but they are also pretty new. Softlayer was running specials on them so I would assume other places might as well. There are plenty of things within forum software that can be tweaked or removed to be less tasking on the database. As forums grown the "nice little" features really add up.
    Well put! I have seen small features (sometimes "eye-candy" features) consume a disproportionate share of overall resources in some instances.

    -mike
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  13. #13
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    I really think at this time if your at the stage you say you are. It would be time to seperate the servers. This will allow you to have more growth and less load on the server.
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  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    I guess it also depends on how much the cost versus the benefit would be and how much money you lose during downtime. If you are able to migrate to a new server that will last you 6 months to a year then I would take that route and then when you decide to split the servers up you will be getting better/faster servers at usually lower rates. If you split the servers now and go with enough long term capacity that you are good for multiple years and you don't actually need it yet then you are just tossing the money away. I'm not sure this came out exactly how I wanted but hopefully the point is made.

  15. #15
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    SQL is all about RAM (for cache) and fast disk access.

    For the future you want to:

    - Fine tune your mysql config
    - Fine tune your databases
    - A lot of RAM on your SQL machine for cache
    - Fast disks (someone mentioned SAS above I think) with a decent RAID controller (High cache, battery for the write cache)

    Also, not 100% sure because I haven't checked it in great detail but I have heard reports of the i7 platform being a step backwards so double check this beforehand.

    Hope this helps.
    Sean McRobbie - Specialising in virtualisation since 2005.
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  16. #16
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    I would check out 10tb.com you may be able to get better specs then the price your paying. Like others said disable extra features and or scripts
    Leader of the new anti sig spamming club.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean0r View Post
    SQL is all about RAM (for cache) and fast disk access.

    For the future you want to:

    - Fine tune your mysql config
    - Fine tune your databases
    - A lot of RAM on your SQL machine for cache
    - Fast disks (someone mentioned SAS above I think) with a decent RAID controller (High cache, battery for the write cache)

    Also, not 100% sure because I haven't checked it in great detail but I have heard reports of the i7 platform being a step backwards so double check this beforehand.

    Hope this helps.
    I have been very pleased with the i7. Not sure how it would be a step back. What reports did you read that stated that?

  18. #18
    If you want to Try tweaking first,
    then try replacing Apache with Lighttpd or nginx.

    Then Ultimate goal is to have a separate Database server and HTTP server

  19. #19
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    if your willing to pay extra litespeed is good. You can pay monthly and see if it helps the loads for now. if not you can go back to apache or lighttpd
    Leader of the new anti sig spamming club.

  20. #20
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    Litespeed could help with this, though at this point, I haven't seen anything to confirm whether this is a HTTP/PHP issue or a MySQL issue.

    How many resources are used by each of those? How much memory are you using for each of those? You're sure this isn't disk IO related, what are your disk IO numbers like?
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  21. #21
    Before you decide, take a look at which of three areas is the bottleneck. These are: memory, disk, and cpu.

    When you have figured out which area is the culprit, then post back and ask for advice on that particular area.

    The likely culprit is disk io, and in particular IOPS.

    If it *is* IOPS, then colocation is probably a better approach for you because you will need to build a disk subsystem that can take the beating. Disk subsystems tend not to be terribly sophisticated in rental offerings. The exception is where the provider does custom built to purpose servers. That usually requires a year or more contract.
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  22. #22
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    As has already been mentioned, I would say the a sure solution for your situation is clustering... regardless whether you rent capacity off a shared cluster like mosso, or build your own.

    Obviously renting capacity on a cluster is likely going to be less expensive and allow you to burst much higher during peak periods without paying to keep that capacity live 24x7x365.
    Kevin

  23. #23
    Join Date
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    USA
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    78
    Quote Originally Posted by Paraguay View Post
    I'm currently running a very large (vBulletin) forum on a single server. Up to now, I've been upgrading as the forum grows, tweaking what can be tweaked and at the moment, for about two hours every day (during peak time) the CPU maxes out and the webserver starts dropping connections. This isn't a massive problem at the moment, you just have to refresh more at these times. However as the traffic grows, this will only get worse.

    I'm looking at my future upgrade options (the site shows no signs of slowing growth).

    As far as I can tell, I have two options:

    1. Upgrade to a more powerful single server
    - a. Core i7
    - b. Dual (two CPUs on one board) Core2 Quad Xeon
    - c. Dual (two CPUs on one board) AMD Opteron

    2. Two server solution, one server for MySQL, other server for memcache, xcache and webservice.

    The former option is, obviously, much less expensive. Though i7 is incredibly expensive, it will offer a significant improvement. However, I'll most likely be facing the same problem in 6 months to a year...

    Also, I rent. I am wondering whether to continue renting, or just front the money and colocate.

    Thoughts?
    I maintain a large linux forum with over 6 million posts, 829k users and 1 million threads. Here is some advice I can give you after dealing with a massively growing forum the last 4 years.

    1. Get a second server and setup a master/slave replication system with mysql. Within vbulletin enable the master/slave configuration in the config file. This will help you by leaps and bounds, but take point #2 in to serious consideration. I've found this to be more important then offloading http traffic.

    2. Tweak, tweak and tweak your mysql configuration files. If you want I can share mine, send me a PM if you wish. Grab this utility and run it often and learn what the output means, it will help.

    http://mysqltuner.com/

    3. Eliminate any unnecessary plugins/products. If you are using the "Thank You" plugin, I've found this to be problematic for large forums and suspect it can cause data corruption.

    4. Look into using sphinxsearch, check vbulletin.org for information on it. It's pretty crude but if #1 isn't a option and you want to make a change to a couple of vbulletin files this is worth looking into. However, it does have its problems and limitations.

    That should be a good start, but off loading some of that mysql traffic will really help. Feel free to send me a PM if you have questions.. Good luck!

    - Ryan
    Fivebean Media, LLC
    Shared & VPS Hosting
    sales@fivebean.com
    www.fivebean.com

  24. #24
    clustering is more reliable from one server but this is depending on your budget
    any way you may get a 2X high servers specifications , buy it , colo it ... that will limits the spending on the time and will release you from future upgrade ,one forum on two servers will work for the next 10 years
    if you need more limits on price! get a used servers high specifications ,, it's all over the web,,

    and I have Some ..

  25. #25
    Join Date
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    Dallas, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraguay View Post
    I'm currently running a very large (vBulletin) forum on a single server. Up to now, I've been upgrading as the forum grows, tweaking what can be tweaked and at the moment, for about two hours every day (during peak time) the CPU maxes out and the webserver starts dropping connections. This isn't a massive problem at the moment, you just have to refresh more at these times. However as the traffic grows, this will only get worse.

    I'm looking at my future upgrade options (the site shows no signs of slowing growth).

    As far as I can tell, I have two options:

    1. Upgrade to a more powerful single server
    - a. Core i7
    - b. Dual (two CPUs on one board) Core2 Quad Xeon
    - c. Dual (two CPUs on one board) AMD Opteron

    2. Two server solution, one server for MySQL, other server for memcache, xcache and webservice.

    The former option is, obviously, much less expensive. Though i7 is incredibly expensive, it will offer a significant improvement. However, I'll most likely be facing the same problem in 6 months to a year...

    Also, I rent. I am wondering whether to continue renting, or just front the money and colocate.

    Thoughts?
    I love the Xeon's(They are the same thing as Core2Quads' pretty much). Personally, I would probably get a mid/high end Dual Intel Xeon, like a L5410 and buy a bunch of SATA drives and RAID 10 them so you have the redundancy and speed, or if you can afford it buy SSD/SaS drives. But a good configuration will be a few hundred per month, like $400.

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