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  1. #1

    WiredTree - a fraud ?

    like a month ago i got a vps from wiredtree and i wanted to cancel so i submitted a form stating that i want to cancel but they didn't agree and said that i must pay for the next month invoice ! and that it was stated in the tos and i told them that i won't be able to pay that's too strange that even why i wanted to cancel how you ask me to pay for some thing just i won't use and don't even want it and they told me if i don't pay they will suspend me so i told them it's ok suspend me i don't want it, but they kept sending me invoices first a 10$ late fee and then a new invoice for the 3 rd month ! i stopped using their vps from the first month, what can i do now ?
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  2. #2
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    Did you
    -cancel your account 7 days before the next billing cycle? or
    -did not cancel through opening a ticket at their client portal or
    -do not have all account information (not being the authorized user)

    If not, I don't see the reason why they do not agree with the cancellation of your account.

    Account Cancellation

    Client must submit service cancellations by opening a ticket through our client portal at least 7 days but not more than 30 days before the end of the service's billing cycle. Cancellation requests are not accepted through phone, email, fax, or any other method besides through opening a ticket through our client portal. You must have all account information to cancel an account. Only the authorized account holder may cancel the account.
    In the event of cancellation, customer will automatically be billed for any excess bandwidth usage during the then-current monthly billing cycle.


    Source:http://www.wiredtree.com/legal/tos.php
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by LaptopFreak View Post
    Did you
    -cancel your account 7 days before the next billing cycle? or
    -did not cancel through opening a ticket at their client portal or
    -do not have all account information (not being the authorized user)

    If not, I don't see the reason why they do not agree with the cancellation of your account.
    I canceled more than 7 days from the next billing cycle and through opening a ticket and iam an authorized user but they said that any open invoices must be paid before canceling and they opened a new invoice way too soon.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unleash View Post
    I canceled more than 7 days from the next billing cycle and through opening a ticket and iam an authorized user but they said that any open invoices must be paid before canceling and they opened a new invoice way too soon.
    So the problem here lies in that you did not pay your bills before cancelling right? It is your fault then.
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  5. #5
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    It is your fault then.
    I thought so too, but rereading the OP's statement changed my mind about it a bit. If invoices are generated early, then the 7 days requirement makes no real sense, and only serves to confuse the customer with regard to cancellation scheduling.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldcdc View Post
    I thought so too, but rereading the OP's statement changed my mind about it a bit. If invoices are generated early, then the 7 days requirement makes no real sense, and only serves to confuse the customer with regard to cancellation scheduling.
    But then, when does WiredTree issue the invoice?
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaptopFreak View Post
    But then, when does WiredTree issue the invoice?
    3 days before the due date
    Graham Craig

    "IT'S NOT HOW GOOD YOU ARE, IT'S HOW BAD YOU WANT IT."
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSHocker View Post
    3 days before the due date
    If thats the case, shouldn't WiredTree sent their invoice earlier or lower the cancellation pre-notification duration? I sure hope to hear Zac's opinions on this.
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  9. #9
    @Abu Mami - spam trolling - (as usually) reported for insultive offtopic personally related remarks.
    @Unleash - it's nothing wrong with your english. We understand you and that's only matters.

    So, you got invoice in lets say 10 days before new billing cycle, canceled hosting some day later and they want from you to pay it anyway? In case that you really requested cancelation through support ticket 7 days before the end of the service's billing cycle it's obviously their mistake.
    Last edited by Spirit; 04-10-2009 at 11:10 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by testnick View Post
    So, you got invoice in lets say 10 days before new billing cycle
    NO - lets say 3 days, because they are the facts.
    Graham Craig

    "IT'S NOT HOW GOOD YOU ARE, IT'S HOW BAD YOU WANT IT."
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  11. #11
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    For me, never had a problem with Wiredtree.

    OP as 2 posts, for this thread only. Not very credible to me.

    Pretty strange that ccording to OP, Wiredtree as already sent 3 monthly invoices, while as he said, he is supposed to be in is 2 months of service. Something doesnt add up.

    The 10$ late fee is in their tos. Seems to be another case of user who didnt read the tos before ordering.

    If this is a real case, hope Zac clarify things.
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  12. #12
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    No, we're definitely not a fraud.

    Unlesh, please email me the ticket ID so I can look into it.

    We do have a 7 day cancellation policy like LaptopFreak posted in our TOS. Invoices are sent out 7 days in advance for most of our clients, however, there are some clients who have been with us for a long time who get invoices 3 days in advance because that is what we originally did.
    Zac Cogswell
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  13. #13
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    If you fail to follow the procedures to which you agreed to, who's the fraud in this case? Certainly not Wiredtree.
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  14. #14
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    He did not email me his ticket ID, but he did tell our billing department he posted on WHT, so I was able to review the ticket. I just wanted to clarify what happened.

    He did get an invoice 7 days in advance of his renewal date, he put in a cancellation request 2 days before his renewal date, which is not the 7 days notice we require and is clearly stated in the TOS. He got angry with us after being informed of that and then admitted in the ticket that he did not ever even read the TOS. The reason he got the late fee is that he refused to pay the invoice and then his account was automatically suspended later and a late fee was added.

    There is definitely no fraud whatsoever on our part.
    Zac Cogswell
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    He did not email me his ticket ID, but he did tell our billing department he posted on WHT, so I was able to review the ticket. I just wanted to clarify what happened.

    He did get an invoice 7 days in advance of his renewal date, he put in a cancellation request 2 days before his renewal date, which is not the 7 days notice we require and is clearly stated in the TOS. He got angry with us after being informed of that and then admitted in the ticket that he did not ever even read the TOS. The reason he got the late fee is that he refused to pay the invoice and then his account was automatically suspended later and a late fee was added.

    There is definitely no fraud whatsoever on our part.
    good to hear I trust ya.
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  16. #16
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    I never understood why you must cancel before past due date, maybe this should be another topic.. If they don't pay by due date, you suspend them. Why would you set a 48 hour deadline to pay and if you don't you get late fees?

    Just seems like a way to scare customers into paying...
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  17. #17
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    A cancellation notice is very common in the service industry.

    In any event, yes, it should be a new topic since it does not apply to this situation specifically. In fact, I remember seeing a thread about this in the Web Hosting Forum not too long ago with discussion from both providers and customers.
    Zac Cogswell
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  18. #18
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    He did get an invoice 7 days in advance of his renewal date, he put in a cancellation request 2 days before his renewal date
    Well, that settles it all right. Good to hear your policies make sense.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    He did not email me his ticket ID, but he did tell our billing department he posted on WHT, so I was able to review the ticket. I just wanted to clarify what happened.

    He did get an invoice 7 days in advance of his renewal date, he put in a cancellation request 2 days before his renewal date, which is not the 7 days notice we require and is clearly stated in the TOS. He got angry with us after being informed of that and then admitted in the ticket that he did not ever even read the TOS. The reason he got the late fee is that he refused to pay the invoice and then his account was automatically suspended later and a late fee was added.

    There is definitely no fraud whatsoever on our part.
    As expected... However, Zac, I suggest that you either issue the invoice earlier or lower the advance notice duration as you are as good as asking the client to make a decision in <24 hours time, which IMO is not sufficient.

    Just my $0.02.
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  20. #20
    if i got suspended then why you billed me for the 3 month ?!
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unleash View Post
    if i got suspended then why you billed me for the 3 month ?!
    Cause you are suspended, not terminated.
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  22. #22
    how can this make sense to you ! i don't understand
    first they ask me to pay for the 2 month just because they opened an invoice for it
    then they suspend me but keep sending me invoices for the 3 month and 4 - 5 and so on
    while iam not using it !
    it just seems to be a fraud to me while most webhosts offers 30 days money back they have we ask for it you pay for it tos even if you don't use it or and even you asked to cancel !
    Last edited by Unleash; 04-11-2009 at 01:41 AM.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unleash View Post
    how can this make sense to you ! i don't understand
    first they ask me to pay for the 2 month just because they opened an invoice for it
    then they suspend me but keep sending me invoices for the 3 month and 4 - 5 and so on
    while iam not using it !
    it just seems to be a fraud to me while most webhosts offers 30 days money back they have we ask for it you pay for it tos even if you don't use it or and even you asked to cancel !
    Cause you did not follow their cancellation policy. Due to you not following their policy, your cancellation request is not entertained. As such, you are billed for the following month, over and over again until you pay your bills.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaptopFreak View Post
    Cause you did not follow their cancellation policy. Due to you not following their policy, your cancellation request is not entertained. As such, you are billed for the following month, over and over again until you pay your bills.
    He canceled his account 2 days before his 1st month of service was over.

    WiredTree said that since he did not cancel 7 days in advance, that he had to pay for the second month of service. When he did not pay for the 2nd month, they added a late fee.

    Then they sent an invoice for a 3rd month.

    He told them to cancel after the 1st month, the total debt he owes WiredTree is the 2nd month payment and the 2nd month late fee.

    By refusing to close his account, there essentially charging him a 100% interest rate on the debt, month after month.

    Credit Card companies charge a maximum (by law) of 30% per year.

    WiredTree can't just keep his account open, accumulating new monthly fees. Once he told them to close it, he owed them for vps charges up until the cancellation, and from there on an annual interest rate < 30% on that debt.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CodePC View Post
    WiredTree can't just keep his account open, accumulating new monthly fees.
    but the cancellation didn't go through in the first place.
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  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by CodePC View Post
    He canceled his account 2 days before his 1st month of service was over.

    WiredTree said that since he did not cancel 7 days in advance, that he had to pay for the second month of service. When he did not pay for the 2nd month, they added a late fee.

    Then they sent an invoice for a 3rd month.

    He told them to cancel after the 1st month, the total debt he owes WiredTree is the 2nd month payment and the 2nd month late fee.

    By refusing to close his account, there essentially charging him a 100% interest rate on the debt, month after month.

    Credit Card companies charge a maximum (by law) of 30% per year.

    WiredTree can't just keep his account open, accumulating new monthly fees. Once he told them to close it, he owed them for vps charges up until the cancellation, and from there on an annual interest rate < 30% on that debt.
    Totally agree with you
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RackSolidHost View Post
    but the cancellation didn't go through in the first place.
    WiredTree acknowledged in an earlier post that they received his cancellation. WiredTree can't just decide on their own that they don't wish to honor it.

    If you called up your Cable TV company and told them to cancel your service, can they just say: No, we're going to keep charging you?

    Assuming the service was Month to Month, not a yearly contract, the service can be canceled at any time.

    WiredTree can't just decide on their own to keep billing any more than your cable provider can.
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  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by RackSolidHost View Post
    but the cancellation didn't go through in the first place.
    and the problem is why ! i went out of business and had no money to continue so i had to cancel so it makes no sense that i have to pay for the next month just because they opened an invoice to it and they refused to cancel until i pay it and when i don't pay for it they even open new invoices for the following months too !

    and i emailed them more than one time and said said that if i don't pay they will terminate my account and mark me as not paying and i stated more than one time that i won't be able to pay and after i wrote this topic he emailed me as asked if this was me and when i said yes and when will you terminate my account and stop asking me for new months he said "The account will be terminated at our earliest convenience. Have a nice weekend." ! what this suppose to mean they know that i can't and won't pay but they refuse to terminate my account and prefer to continue billing me new invoices till their earliest convenience !

    by the way iam from egypt and use a debut internet card which is prepaid thanks good for that if not and it was normal credit card they would have stole alot of money from me just because they want to get the money just because they opened an invovice for it even if that was stated in their one and only strange tos i have ever seen.
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  29. #29
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    wiredtree didn't get a confirmation from him, since he didn't accept to pay for the extra month to end his contract.
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  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by CodePC View Post
    WiredTree acknowledged in an earlier post that they received his cancellation. WiredTree can't just decide on their own that they don't wish to honor it.

    If you called up your Cable TV company and told them to cancel your service, can they just say: No, we're going to keep charging you?

    Assuming the service was Month to Month, not a yearly contract, the service can be canceled at any time.

    WiredTree can't just decide on their own to keep billing any more than your cable provider can.
    Totally agree

    nice to find some people that understand me and admit that this is kind of stealing and a fraud by using their own strange law "tos"
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by RackSolidHost View Post
    wiredtree didn't get a confirmation from him, since he didn't accept to pay for the extra month to end his contract.
    He told them to cancel his service. He doesn't need to pay them anything upfront to cancel. Anything he owes them at the time of cancellation (the 2nd monthly fee, the late fee, or even a termination fee) becomes a debt.

    They can't just keep adding new monthly service fees, or require an upfront payment to stop them. Once he tells them to cancel, they can only charge him a legal annual interest rate on the outstanding debt.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unleash View Post
    then they suspend me but keep sending me invoices for the 3 month and 4 - 5 and so on
    Except this isn't true, you received one invoice for the next month of service because your server has been in the suspended since it reached 7 days past due and had not yet been canceled. As you already know, per the discussion on your billing ticket yesterday, your server has been scheduled for termination due to non-payment. Nowhere did we ever say we were keeping the account open indefinitely because that isn't something we ever do.

    If anyone here is committing fraud here, it is you. We performed a service for you based on the agreement we both entered into together when you signed up. You failed to live up to your end of the agreement. If you didn't like the terms of the agreement, you shouldn't have agreed to them. By your own admission, you didn't even read them, even though you checked the box that you said you did read and agree to them. That isn't our fault.
    Zac Cogswell
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  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    He did get an invoice 7 days in advance of his renewal date, he put in a cancellation request 2 days before his renewal date, which is not the 7 days notice we require and is clearly stated in the TOS.
    Maybe this is where customers get confused.

    The TOS talks about a "billing cycle" instead of a "renewal date" or "billing date".

    If a customer has a service term of Jan 1 to Jan 31, he might easily expect that he needs to cancel on or before Jan 23.

    From the looks of the conversation it seems that the WiredTree interpretation is that the billing cycle is at Jan 23, and a cancellation is required to be 7 days before that, making it Jan 15, or so.

    See how someone might be caught unawares? It might seem clear as a bell to an insider, but to someone outside ...
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  34. #34
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    This whole situation could have been avoided had you simply read the TOS like you said you did and then put the cancellation notice in on time. It is very clearly stated there. A lot of the time even if you miss the 7 day window by a day or two we still process the request anyways. This situation is very easily avoidable.
    Zac Cogswell
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by plumsauce View Post
    Maybe this is where customers get confused.

    The TOS talks about a "billing cycle" instead of a "renewal date" or "billing date".

    If a customer has a service term of Jan 1 to Jan 31, he might easily expect that he needs to cancel on or before Jan 23.

    From the looks of the conversation it seems that the WiredTree interpretation is that the billing cycle is at Jan 23, and a cancellation is required to be 7 days before that, making it Jan 15, or so.

    See how someone might be caught unawares? It might seem clear as a bell to an insider, but to someone outside ...
    We require 7 days notice in advance of his renewal date, not his invoice date.

    I'm not sure that the billing cycles are confusing, but even if they are, I do not see how it relevant to this specific case. In your hypothetical scenario he would either think that he needs to put the request in either by the 23rd or by the 15th, however he would have actually put it in on the 29th so clearly it is past either one of those two dates. At that point he should know it is not within 7 days either way.

    In this real scenario, he didn't even read the TOS and is upset that there is any advance notice he needs to give

    If there was any questions about dates, he could contact us and ask as well at any point. Like I said before, if the request is put in within a couple of days of when it should be we are usually pretty lenient but in this case it wasn't close.
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  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    Except this isn't true, you received one invoice for the next month of service because your server has been in the suspended since it reached 7 days past due and had not yet been canceled. As you already know, per the discussion on your billing ticket yesterday, your server has been scheduled for termination due to non-payment.
    what is true is that you made an invoice for the 2 month and 10$ for late payment and instead of terminating my account for nonpayment you made another invoice for the third month !
    and when i asked when are you going to terminate my account you said "The account will be terminated at our earliest convenience. Have a nice weekend." what is this ?! what is at your earliest convenience ! i didn't pay for the second month and for the late fee and said more than once that i won't be able to pay but you earliest convenience made you bill me for the 3 month before even thinking of terminating my account !
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unleash View Post
    what is true is that you made an invoice for the 2 month
    This existed before your cancellation request.

    and 10$ for late payment
    This exists because you did not pay the first invoice.

    and instead of terminating my account for nonpayment you made another invoice for the third month !
    This exists because it was generated in the time your account had been suspended but had not yet been terminated for non-payment.

    As for "earliest convenience" maybe this will help: http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/...st+convenience

    In any event, since you decided that you are breaking our agreement and skipping out on the payments you owe, why do you even care what we are invoicing you for or when it is due? You aren't going to pay it anyways.
    Last edited by WiredTree Zac; 04-11-2009 at 06:05 AM.
    Zac Cogswell
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  38. #38
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    Unleash clearly owes for Month1 and the $10 extra.

    However Zac, invoicing for Month2+Late and Month3+Late seems unreasonable regardless of WT's internal status (suspended). The way I'm looking at it, Month1's cancellation was late, but it is sufficiently early for Month2's cancellation. Please correct me if this is actually not pursuant to your TOS.

    You know, AOL was slapped with a class action lawsuit for similar practices and in 2004, they realized they wouldn't win (cause it's wrong) and settled. They paid refunds amongst other things.
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  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    This exists because it was generated in the time your account had been suspended but had not yet been terminated for non-payment.
    So you billed him for a further month, on top of the extra month he was required to pay (because he didn't cancel before the required time)?

    Do you make this policy clear in your agreement?

    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    As for "earliest convenience" maybe this will help:
    I don't know who edits thefreedictionary.com but I would take "our earliest convenience" to mean "as soon as it is convenient to us", that isn't quite the same as the definition on the thefreedictionary.com, "as soon as it is possible".


    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    In any event, since you decided that you are breaking our agreement and skipping out on the payments you owe, why do you even care what we are invoicing you for or when it is due? You aren't going to pay it anyways.
    This statement says allot about your stance on this matter.

    He said he wasn't able to pay. This isn't the same as deciding not to pay. Either way it doesn't give you the right to do what ever you want. Just because one party is not able to meet the agreement, it doesn't mean all bets are off.
      0 Not allowed!

  40. #40
    in a supermarket if you take 5 bottles of juice, come to the cash desk and realize you can only afford 4 bottles, you will return 1 bottle and pay for the other 4.

    in a wiredtree supermarket if you take 5 bottles of juice, come to the cash desk and realize you can only afford 4 bottles, you will be told "sorry, even though you haven't used them, you'll need to pay for the whole 5 bottles. you see, we have a policy that you must return all unwanted products 7 feet before the cash desk. even though there is no reason why we can't take that one bottle away, we'll charge it anyway". that's ridiculous.

    other thing is tos. and don't get me wrong, i have nothing against wiredtree, steadcom or other providers who are defending this unethical practices. just because you write it in a tos doesn't make it right. there are also something which is called customer protection act. basically, you could today go and rewrite your tos (toses usually say that no advanced notice is necessary to do that) and put that cancellation are subject to $1 million fines and that they must be submitted 2 years ahead. ok, now i'm over exaggerating, but you get the point: providers shouldn't have shady practices and hide behind their toses. if a customer didn't used it he should have to pay.

    and to be fair, i've seen ever stricter toses even stating you need to provide 30 days notice (on a monthly plan).

    if you (i mean all providers) would have a user-friendlier terms you'd be surprised how far you would get. your customers are not your enemies from which you should cowardly hide behind terms of use.
      0 Not allowed!

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