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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
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    webreseller bitchy strategies

    Hi all,

    beware of Webreseller's bitchy strategies regarding upgrade to Ensim 3.1.1. They offer upgrade from Ensim 3.0 to Ensim 3.1.1 for $49.95, but if you order it, you get no Tomcat.

    They offer some kind of "full" upgrade, but when you ask for Tomcat, they charge extra US $30 for it. Otherwise you don't get sh*t.

    Here is the tricky email they send you:

    ------Webreseller--------
    Dear WebReseller.Net customer,



    We are now announcing that Ensim Webppliance 3.1.1 (for Linux) is
    available!



    Upgrade for increased stability, new features, and current security
    fixes.



    Some of the new features of Webppliance 3.1.1 are:



    - New reseller administrator level
    - Redhat 7.2 compatible
    - Tomcat 4 supported
    - Repair options for protected directories
    - Multi-lingual support
    - Online help in many languages
    - Development tools (gcc, g++, make, java) available at site level



    The following are just a few samples of the software packages that are
    upgraded:
    Webppliance 3.0.x ----------> Webppliance 3.1.1
    Apache/1.3.19 ----------> Apache/1.3.22
    mod_perl/1.24_01 ----------> mod_perl/1.24_01
    PHP/4.0.6 ----------> PHP/4.2.2
    FrontPage/5.0.2 ----------> FrontPage/5.0.2
    mod_ssl/2.8.1 ----------> mod_ssl/2.8.5
    OpenSSL/0.9.6 ----------> OpenSSL/0.9.6b (patched)



    Don\'t get left behind! Get your system upgraded today by a professional.



    The cost of this upgrade is US$49.95 if you are upgrading from Webppliance
    3.0.x. If you are using Webppliance 3.1.0 the upgrade is free. Please
    contact sales if you would like an upgrade from Webppliance 2.x as it is
    no longer officially supported by us.



    You can find your current Ensim Webppliance version by logging in to your
    Appliance Administrator and looking at the top center. It should say
    \" : Appliance Administrator 3.x.x-x\"



    Please visit http://www.webreseller.net/ProSer/addensim.htm or e-mail
    sales@webreseller.net.



    -The WebReseller.Net Staff

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
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    267
    It saids Tomcat is supported, nothing on it going along with the package. Don't see any problems with the offer personally.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
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    This is a free upgrde from Ensim. Is this the charge if you do not want to do it yourself? If so, that is fair. Or is this mandatory payment and only they can upgrade it for you? If they force you to upgrade to a free ensim upgrade that fixes numerous security issues, that doesn't seem to fair.

    The Tomcat issue can be understandable. It is a huge resource hog and a support nightmare.


    As a side note, the 3.0/3.1 ==> 3.1.1 upgrade will result in downtime. Each site is suspended one at a time. Once the upgrade is done, the sites are re-enabled - one at a time. So if you do this, have them do it at night. We average 2 - 3 hours for servers with 250 - 300 sites for the upgrade to complete. Just FYI.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    56
    mod_perl/1.24_01 ----------> mod_perl/1.24_01
    FrontPage/5.0.2 ----------> FrontPage/5.0.2
    wow! impressive upgrades!
    Unfortunately, life does not come with documentation.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    73
    If they offer an upgrade, and they plan to extra-charge for Tomcat upgrade (which is enabled by default by Ensim's patch) they should have advised it beforehand, not after people paid for the upgrade.

    I think this is really bad business practice. I would never do such a thing with my customers, it's really unfair.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    96
    I was told by one of their sales staff that Tomcat was included with ensim but to charge for it?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
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    They never say you won't get fu**ing tomcat. They just offer an upgrade to 3.1.1 for US $49.95.

    When you agree to pay that money, you get no tomcat. You ask about it and you get this reply:

    "Tomcat is an optional installation and can be done for $30. We\'ll need the first and last 4 digits of your credit card as confirmation if you would like us to install it."

    After complaining about unfair biz practices, I got this answer:

    "This is just stating that it is supported, not that it is included: previously, we did not support tomcat. Please advise whether or not you would like to have it installed for the given fee."

    I think this kind of handling is absolute crap. People must be able to decide if they want a "partial" upgrade for almost $50 or a full upgrade for $80, but they must know in advance, not after they have charged 50 bucks for some kind of upgrade (I really don't know if they have chopped another part of the upgrade package).

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Westbury, LI NY
    Posts
    1,705
    Originally posted by UmBillyCord
    This is a free upgrde from Ensim. Is this the charge if you do not want to do it yourself? If so, that is fair. Or is this mandatory payment and only they can upgrade it for you? If they force you to upgrade to a free ensim upgrade that fixes numerous security issues, that doesn't seem to fair.
    They run the ServerXChange version and I was told by many people (RS, email, etc) that you can not do it yourself, they must. So yes, it is free from Ensim, but you have to go through WR, and they do charge you. I brought that to rob's atention and the response was:

    B. ServerXchange version allows us to update your server with the newest Security releases and patches, once again, if you were with Rackshack (you would be on a system that costs about $400 max, our systems start at $1000.00 +), you would get NO security updates or patches. We do this automatically through Server Xchange.

    C. The upgrade you see ensim is if you own the License (rackshack owns it) and know how to install it.

    The upgrade fee is $49.95, it's only a one time upgrade fee. To do a format and reload will cost you about the same. Keep in mind, this takes a good 30 minutes of a techs time to do it right.
    So bacsiclly they offer semi-managed servers (which I have never seen them make use of, they insisted I open up a port in my firewall so they can monitor my server, but when it goes down, they dont do anything until I call and even than it takes 12 hours. Not to mention it was I who patched my server, not them, the entire point of ServerXchange) running a different version of Ensim that is even more proprietary so it helps them out for the upgrades that i have never seen them do and than charge you for the ones you want.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    San Diego
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    True, SX versions can only be upgraded by SX.

    Well, they don't know SX then if it takes a tech 30 minutes - no offense. SX has an excellent mass upgarde option that will upgrade ALL your servers in the system, instantally. As long as you keep your servers up to date prior, you shouldn't have any conflicts. Also, the Tomcat install delivered from SX takes 5 minutes - tops. It too is free.

    But it is there choice as a company on what to bill for.


    once again, if you were with Rackshack (you would be on a system that costs about $400 max, our systems start at $1000.00 +), you would get NO security updates or patches.
    This makes no sense. $1000??? Also, 3.1.1 really is just a patch that fixes some bugs and security issues. There isn't much functionality changes from 3.0, so contrary to what they say, looks like you are paying for patches and security updates.
    Last edited by BeDifferentSolutions; 10-16-2002 at 08:12 PM.

  10. #10
    Did any of you guys get charged $49.95 for upgrading from 3.1 to 3.1.1?

    I thought this was free? I sent an email to them, but haven't received a reply.

    Am I going insane?

    jt
    http://myrmid.com
    Affordable hosting for people who need lots of space and bandwidth. Personal plans available as well.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    1,210
    Originally posted by UmBillyCord
    This makes no sense. $1000??? Also, 3.1.1 really is just a patch that fixes some bugs and security issues. There isn't much functionality changes from 3.0, so contrary to what they say, looks like you are paying for patches and security updates.
    I think he was referring to the cost of the physical machines, not the Webppliance version(s).

    As for regular security updates under ServerXchange, I wouldn't put too much faith in that happening - in the six months I've had my sx-controlled machines, I've had to install all the RedHat and Webppliance patches/upgrades released during that time myself - with the obvious exception of the 3.1.1 upgrade.

    -Bob

  12. #12
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    Aug 2001
    Posts
    1,210
    Originally posted by JDTurbeville
    Did any of you guys get charged $49.95 for upgrading from 3.1 to 3.1.1?
    Contact leslie@webreseller.net - she'll fix it for you.

    -Bob

  13. #13
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    San Diego
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    As for regular security updates under ServerXchange, I wouldn't put too much faith in that happening - in the six months I've had my sx-controlled machines, I've had to install all the RedHat and Webppliance patches/upgrades released during that time myself - with the obvious exception of the 3.1.1 upgrade.
    Overall, we have not seen this. Compared to Cobalt and Plesk (what we have used before), they are no slower, certainly faster then Cobalt - even when Cobalt was Cobalt. Not sure how they stack against HSpere or CPanel.

  14. #14
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    Feb 2001
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    1,246
    Inside stuff of hosting companies....

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    Originally posted by UmBillyCord
    Overall, we have not seen this. Compared to Cobalt and Plesk (what we have used before), they are no slower, certainly faster then Cobalt - even when Cobalt was Cobalt. Not sure how they stack against HSpere or CPanel.
    In my particular case, it's not that updates were done quickly or slowly, it's that they were not done at all, and I'm trying to understand why.

    Are you running machines under ServerXchange, or do you administer an entire ServerXchange system? I ask because I'm curious as to how and to what extent ServerXchange is supposed to handle updates and patches, and whether this is an entirely automated process?

    Lets take the past few months for example - there were security updates for (at least) bind, openssh, openssl, the apache chunked encoding thing (for which Ensim released their own patch), as well as one or two other Ensim-specific patches. Should any of these have been handled by serverxchange, and if so, would it have been a completely automatic process, or would it have required any input or intervention from the people administering the serverxchange system?

    Thanks,
    -Bob
    Last edited by TMX; 10-17-2002 at 04:02 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
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    A full list of patches can be made available, there are differences between the LS and Exchange version... The letter that was sent out said "Tomcat Support", and to install it can take some time. Many of the patches that are sent out from Ensim are installed in a mass upgrade and customers are not notified.

    We are hearing from a group of a few customers, there are many customer that we have that are very much aware of the patches we have done.

    Semi-Managed is clearly defined in our dedicated section, we offer full support with control-panel questions, general information, and many times (not all) if a customer messes up their server we have fixed it in the past if it's only happened once or twice and it will not take too much time. Let's face it, there are many customers on this forum that use Rackshack.Net, I feel as though there is nothing bad to be said about them, HOWEVER, the difference with us is that if you have a problem with your server, we will exhaust every resource to try to fix it and not do the format and reload solution... We have even had drive experts come in to try to save customers data if a drive failed, and that might I add, was on an unmanaged server... The upgrade from 3.0 - 3.1 was almost like getting a new product...

    The quote that was given DID NOT contain the entire message, there were discussions of the price we charge in comparison to a company like rackshack.net, and we use hardware that is more expensive for the most part. I do not think anyone can deny that the tower cases being sold compare price wise to an IBM 300 or now 305 server.

    adad, we told you in the help ticket that there would be a fee to install it and you agreed to it. We installed it promptly for you. I will be happy to provide you a credit for 1/2 the install on it, but I ask you this question and please take no offense... If you were to be with a company that offers unmanaged systems or for that-matter even semi-managed, and you called them and said can you please install something for me ? I think they would say NO or that there would be a fee. Professional services are vital to any hosting company and the bottom line is that it takes a trained tech to install many of these things... Tomcat also requires the virtualization aspect.... I m very sorry if the mail that was sent was vague about Tomcat, however, we have had about 40 other inquires about Tomcat and there were no problems. This would be the first reported complaint about this, but as mentioned, we will be happy to credit 1/2 of it back to you.

    The upgrades from 3.0 to 3.1 were nice and there were more things added. If you had 3.1 you should NOT have been charged for the upgrade, it was free.. The order form did not allow for the entering up current version... No problems at all getting this taken care of, just send something to billing@webreseller.net.

    The bottom line in all of this is that Webreseller.Net tries very hard to do anything we can for our customers and we value everyone immensely. Errors can happen from time to time and we have to deal with them. We are in the business of showing a profit and not a loss, by just giving away free services and installs we can not stay in business. Many of the customers that use WHT will attest to the fact that there are many things that have been done for them that at most places you would be charged for.

    I hope this has cleared up many things, and adad we are very sorry about the confusion and wish you the VERY best with your business...

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    234
    Yeah - I'm going to have to agree with WebReseller on this one, they really do do anything they can for their customers and hopefully their success shows it

  18. #18
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    Location
    San Diego
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    Hey Bob.

    Yes, we have been running SX itself since 2000. While it started a lemon, it has gotten better in the server patch and update arena. The new release included the new mass upgrade option which was long over due, but a great addition. We uploaded 100s of services and versions, scattered across a lot of servers (VDSs too) in the matter of minutes. Sure there were some small issues, but overall, it ran great.

    Ensim has a system called APPxchange where SX connects too and downloads the latest patches, updates, etc... Once loaded onto SX, you then find what servers in your farm (across multiple datacenters if need be) and load the patches. So, to answer your question - Yes. Everyone of those patches was taken care of by SX. Now it is not automatic. You manually decide which servers to upgrade.

    Another benifit, is that teh new Windows patches are also upgraded through SX. We only ahve a few Windows servers, so not sure how well it worked with them.

  19. #19
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    Location
    Pennsylvania
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    They work very well with the Windows as well... Good luck with everything

  20. #20
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    Feb 2002
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    848
    One of the things I noticed reading hte RS forum is that many many people who installed the 3.0 -> 3.1.1 upgrade themselves ended up with servere problems (servers crashing every so many hours, apache not coming back up, webppliance not coming backup, etc.). I would assume that for $50 webreseller would troubleshoot any problems that were created for free, so I don't think the charge is out of line for a gauranteed trouble-free upgrade.
    Dedicated Servers at Steadfast Networks and Softlayer : Virutal Hosting at FutureQuest : VPS at FutureHosting

  21. #21
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    Mar 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
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    Thumbs up

    Webreseller have done right by us. Any issues we have had have been resolved in a timely manner and tech support is first class.

    well done


    Scott
    http://www.boinghosting.com.au
    put the boing back into your site

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    Originally posted by UmBillyCord
    Yes, we have been running SX itself since 2000. While it started a lemon, it has gotten better in the server patch and update arena.
    Thanks UmBillyCord, that was exactly the type of detailed explanation I was looking for

    -Bob

  23. #23
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    Location
    Berlin, Germany
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    Originally posted by webreseller
    The letter that was sent out said "Tomcat Support", and to install it can take some time. Many of the patches that are sent out from Ensim are installed in a mass upgrade and customers are not notified. [...]
    If I were you, I would send an email to the admin saying you've done it. Every time a modification/patch or the sort is applied to a server, the admin should be notified.

    adad, we told you in the help ticket that there would be a fee to install it and you agreed to it.
    I agreed to it because there was no other option left. I had been tricked with your letter, and I wanted the full upgrade, not just what you thought it was the upgrade. I was just sticking to your letter. So the only thing I could do is pay again, but not shut up. If you had told me the full upgrade cost $80, it would have been my choice to install it or not, but knowing exactly how much it would cost. And, by the way, I must say I would have certainly agreed to pay $80 from the very beginning. I agreed for a $50 upgrade and after the upgrade I noticed it was not complete. Then I was told to pay other $30 or I wouldn't get tomcat. This is clearly a bad commercial practice, bad business... It's not the amount involved, it's the way you've done it.

    We installed it promptly for you. I will be happy to provide you a credit for 1/2 the install on it, but I ask you this question and please take no offense...
    I am really happy with your service. My servers are OK, you have a very nice tech support, but I do insist: when I told -Jon that this kind of business is not fair, he told me "You pay or you don't get the upgrade". Sounds a bit rude? It does to me. As I said before, I'm really satisfied with the service I pay for, and I think webreseller.net is a wonderful company to host with. But I expect real answers from people that are supposed to deal with customers.

    If you were to be with a company that offers unmanaged systems or for that-matter even semi-managed, and you called them and said can you please install something for me ? I think they would say NO or that there would be a fee.
    I didn't ask for the upgrade. You have offered a full upgrade, in a letter that appeared to be clear, but it was tricky. If you offer something, and I agree to buy it, I believe you should provide it, that's the way I do business. I agreed to pay the fee, I did NOT ask for it to be free. I know you have to work to upgrade the system, and that it costs money and effort. That's why I agreed to pay $50 and after that $30 for tomcat, the money YOU asked for. And, again, I would have payed $80 for the upgrade from the beginning.

    Professional services are vital to any hosting company and the bottom line is that it takes a trained tech to install many of these things... Tomcat also requires the virtualization aspect.... I m very sorry if the mail that was sent was vague about Tomcat, however, we have had about 40 other inquires about Tomcat and there were no problems. This would be the first reported complaint about this, but as mentioned, we will be happy to credit 1/2 of it back to you.
    I really appreciate it that you credited $15 to my account. It's not a matter of money, it's the way I like business: crystal clear or nothing. One more time: I am NOT dissatisfied in any way with the service you provide, or the fees you charge. I absolutely disagree with the way this issue was handled. I accept your apologize, and hope this all contributes to think about the way we do a special offer.

    I understand no one can do everything for free. I want you to stay in business and of course make a lot of money with your work. I've never asked you to install the upgrade for free.

    I hope this has cleared up many things, and adad we are very sorry about the confusion and wish you the VERY best with your business...
    Things are clear. Thank you for your insight.

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