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  1. #1
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    Optigold - Beware - Do Not Use

    AVOID OPTIGOLD!

    Just to let the rest of the industry know out there...do not trust the makes of OPTIGOLD.

    They offer a money back guarantee, but they WILL NOT honor it.

    We purchase dtheir program about 6 months ago to use for BURSTNET, and the thing had massive security issues, and we decided to use PLATYPUS instead. We opted to use OPTIGOLD's refund guarantee, and THEY ISSUED US AN RMA NUMBER. We shipped back the manuals, an have the tracking number for the shipment/receipt. 6 months later, and we are still trying to get OPTIGOLD to refund our payment. They give us the complete runaround, take 7-10 days between answering your email to their billing dept, anwer with 1 sentance to avoid the situation and drag it out longer, etc...Yesterday we finally were able to talk to the President of their company (yes, a president of wha sounds like a husband/wife company to us..) and he claim's "he cannot do anything about it, and does not handle such things". Well, WHO CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, if the head of the company cannot? They are obviously trying to do everything to avoid honoring the RMA they issued, and to not refund our money. Unfortunately, our credit card company says the time for a chargeback has passed. However, we are pursuing other legal means of obtaining our refund, and will continue to tell as many people as we can about their deception.

    AVOID OPTIGOLD!

    Sean R.
    BurstNET

  2. #2
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    Ouch, hope you get it resolved. Care to elaborate generally about the 'massive security issues'? Best of luck...
    Modest Mouse Talk

  3. #3
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    Well, we have used them for years before going to our own solution and I can say "AVOID OPTIGOLD!" is one persons opinion. Mine is that they are excellent. The software is a little outdated in that most of it is client side and not all webbased. Also it runs off Filemaker.

    Why don't you contact Shawn. He built it and runs it. Sounds like that is who you got, but he can do something about it. I highly doubt they are avoiding a refund unless they have another side to this we are not hearing.

    Ouch, hope you get it resolved. Care to elaborate generally about the 'massive security issues'? Best of luck...
    I would like to hear this too.

  4. #4
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    You are right, the software IS feature packed, that is why we wanted it.
    However, our CTO (Nick Koston - CPanel Developer) absolutely would not allow us to implement this due to a ton of security concerns. I know one of them was regarding FileMaker being able to be hacked itself, but other issues were present as well.

    We contacted Shawn...the programmer and President.
    He and Claudia are the only people that work there we think. HE wouldn't help us at all..said he can't and doesn't handle such things...well if you can't take care of a problem in you own 2 person company, then who the hell can?

    Point being, they issued an RMA number to us, showing we were justified in getting one, we shipped back the manuals (software is downloaded), and then the REFUSED TO RETURN OUR MONEY.
    Then the guy taunts us with "what are you gonna do about it"! We'll just see about that....

    Sean R.
    BURSTNET
    Last edited by HostJedi; 10-16-2002 at 11:13 PM.

  5. #5
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    Then the guy taunts us with "what are you gonna do about it"! We'll just see about that....
    Yeah, if that really happened I would be pissed off too.

  6. #6
    can someone enlighten me as to what filemaker is?

    paul
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  7. #7
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    http://www.digitalpoint.com/products/isp/

    Google can really enlighten you
    dotGig
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  8. #8
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    Filemaker is the backend (database) used in Optigold ISP. It's a commercial product that has a GUI interface and allows others to build applications onto it. Filemaker databases are comprised of fields and rows compared to mysql's multidimension tables of fields and rows.
    Modest Mouse Talk

  9. #9
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    Lightbulb

    This is one of those times when you wish you had a lawyer on retainer. Last year I became a member of Pre-Paid Legal Services, Inc., and your situation is exactly what the membership is most helpful with. When you have a problem with a vendor, your membership entitles you to phone calls and letters to help resolve issues. I know it works because I've been able to resolve disputes using the service to my satisfaction.

    David

  10. #10
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    You are right, the software IS feature packed, that is why we wanted it.
    However, our CTO (Nick Koston - CPanel Developer) absolutely would not allow us to implement this due to a ton of security concerns. I know one of them was regarding FileMaker being able to be hacked itself, but other issues were present as well.
    This still does not tell us what the security concerns are. It seems like your Nick is interested only in a UNIX solution. On the other hand, the macintosh operating system is very tight. Filemaker, a very very well known database solution, was even purchased by Apple and their other company Claris years ago and is equally as tight.

    As I have said on another list where you posted the same email warning - we, at NetStep, have used Optigold since 1998. We do not use all of the features of the system. We choose not to use all of the features not because of some possible security flaw, which is still a surprise to me, but rather we just don't need all of the features - or choose not to have certain features open to clients. Optigold has been a godsend to us and has made our business more sucessful.

    Various operating systems have flaws - it doesn't make the applications that run on the OS flawful or flawless....In other words, is it possible that the security flaws that your CTO believes exist come from Filemaker itself and not Optigold? By the way folks, Filemaker ran originally on the Macintosh platform only. ...but today it also can be served on WinTel and Linux. So, please share with us these flaws otherwise take your issue private.

    <Robb>

  11. #11
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    << It seems like your Nick is interested only in a UNIX solution. >>

    Incorrect. We actually chose Platypus, which is a completely Windows based solution.

    << security flaws that your CTO believes exist come from
    Filemaker itself and not Optigold? >>

    The flaws discovered are due to flaws in Filemaker that we found, which could be brought about thru Optigold's web server (housed outside the firewall, and connecting to the FileMaker firewalled database server). We have no interest in supplying the information to the Optigold community, because of how poorly we were treaded by such.

    Sean R.
    BurstNET

  12. #12
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    The flaws discovered are due to flaws in Filemaker that we found, which could be brought about thru Optigold's web server (housed outside the firewall, and connecting to the FileMaker firewalled database server). We have no interest in supplying the information to the Optigold community, because of how poorly we were treaded by such.
    Sounds more like a flaw with your Firewall - perhaps you just installed it prior to installing Optigold and left some options set incorrectly.

    By the way, prior to using Optigold and now Platypus what did your company use to a manage your accounts???

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by DaveNET
    This is one of those times when you wish you had a lawyer on retainer. Last year I became a member of Pre-Paid Legal Services, Inc., and your situation is exactly what the membership is most helpful with. When you have a problem with a vendor, your membership entitles you to phone calls and letters to help resolve issues. I know it works because I've been able to resolve disputes using the service to my satisfaction.

    David
    Hmmm, it's not like you sell this service is it?

  14. #14
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    you can read the _full_ burstnet-optigold story here:
    http://archive.digitalpoint.com/FMPr...ail.html&-Find
    BAD ENGLISH BUT HIGH IQ

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by comram
    you can read the _full_ burstnet-optigold story here:
    http://archive.digitalpoint.com/FMPr...ail.html&-Find
    Wow. Sean you shouldn't of said this publically. "Now I will take appropriate action to get our money's worth by ruining the reputation of your company.". Not to smart, even if you are pissed and if you feel you were robbed. I would drop it and go offline.
    Last edited by BeDifferentSolutions; 10-15-2002 at 03:43 PM.

  16. #16
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    Uh oh... can any you say TRO? I knew you could...

    I have a feeling some papers are heading someone's way...
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  17. #17
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    http://archive.digitalpoint.com/FMPr...il.html&-Find, Optigold ISP List http://www.optigold.com/lists/isp.html.

    "BURSTNET is one of the largest managed server providers in the world.... We house approx 1000 servers in our facility currently.
    ...see recent article on us and RackShack in this month's HostingTech magazine."

    Response from some

    "Hmm, 1000 servers eh and no billing program in use ? (or firewall?) Sounds dubious...."

    and

    "Oh, aren't you the guys who host DNS for a bunch of known spammers? If 1000 servers makes 'em one of the largest, that's scary. I have 25 servers in my friggin living room."

    and it goes on and on.....
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  18. #18
    regardless of how assinine burstnet is, he was entitled to a refund, whcih he never got. even on that list, neither the company's owner nor any of the employees have commented on why they would not refund the money/why they gave him a run around until the chargeback was no longer possible.

    if you are going to start a flame, burstnet, you better check your spelling and express your gripes in a professional way. had you done so, more people would have pressured optigold to explain why your refund was not issued, as opposed to flaming you off the list.

    however, based on the information i have, optigold did not honor their refund policy. for that, they should be hassled, dragged to court and humiliated on all relevant forums. here is why:

    i am looking at a product and the company offers a money-back guarantee. i want to be*positive* that i can get my money back.
    companies that do what optigold seems to have done are a plague, a menace which inhibits the establishment of trust-based business relationships.

    paul
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  19. #19
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    companies that do what optigold seems to have done are a plague, a menace which inhibits the establishment of trust-based business relationships.
    Paul, this is assuming a lot. We do not know what happened. Of course I agree with you if Burst's side is true. But I also know Shawn of Digipoint for three years now, and I wouldn't see him randomally denying a refund. If he is, I hope Sean from Burst gets his money back. That is only fair.


    On a side note, going to the Digipoint list and talking about what RackMy.com posted was not wise. Sure, WHT is great for that. It is 95% kids running $10/mo reseller host and 99% cheap skates. Good crowd for it. However I know from experience the majority who read the DP list are old school ISP guys and know their shi*. They don't come to WHT for a reason. So posting what Sean did was not the best move. I am surprised they were easy on him.

    It would be like me being the best slow pitch softball player in Wyoming showing up to a Major Leagure baseball all star game and talking sh** and bragging to the team. Now if I was the best slow pitch softball player in Wy. and I went to the South Coast High School Teen Softball all star game (WHT in this example for those who missed it), then I can talk shi*.

  20. #20
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    I read through the entire thread on digitalpoint's forums.

    I have to admit I am curious about the resolution of the issue (refund) and whether it was ever issued to the complainer and why/why not.


    BUT, I'm pretty damned skeptical about this "CEO" from Burst.net who has "1000 servers", who decides that :

    1) He will sit there all day long harassing a company over a refund instead of running his own business.

    2) Decides to take this issue personally instead of simply sicking a lawyer on the person who has the disputed refund money.

    3) Keeps using an AOL Email account "in case they have SMTP issues". Now while I will never claim that servers of any type might not have issues....I am pretty suspicious about any company with 1000 servers that doesnt appear to have access to a backup mail server

    4) Is SO determined to talk about how much of a "CEO" he is and how "big" his company is, it reeks of desperation--desperation to be taken seriously by someone--anyone, really.

    All the CEO's I've met, talked with, known are a little more confident in themselves. (Granted, many may be very insecure jerks...but they KNOW they are CEO and dont need to blast it in more than one way at one time. Like Burst who changed his EMAIL address/name to read that he was the CEO/President in BIG BOLD LETTERS so everyone could see.)

    5) This 1000 server company never actually TRIED the software (apparently) but because a CTO said that "Filemaker was insecure and flawed" in some fashion without testing or trial whatsoever. (I find it VERY interesting that software was purchased without so much as a "whats your opinion" being asked of this CTO before money was laid out.)

    That speaks of poor business processes to me.

  21. #21
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    We find NetCents to be a very nice piece of software. We use it for everything. It's very basic but we might be switching to Platypus soon. We are not sure yet..

    http://www.netcents.com
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  22. #22
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    The CEO of Burst always seems to have "little man's" complex. (just an opinion).
    Mike @ Xiolink.com
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  23. #23
    mike,

    a lot of people on wht are knowledgeable people. please do not reduce these fora to a troll paradise. sure, people get flamed from time to time, most of the time deservedly =]

    paul
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  24. #24
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    a lot of people on wht are knowledgeable people. please do not reduce these fora to a troll paradise. sure, people get flamed from time to time, most of the time deservedly
    Not sure I follow?
    Mike @ Xiolink.com
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  25. #25
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    It was a direct comment to the context of your post, you're shooting for the lowest common denominator with your comment about Sean.

    Sean is a person, posting your opinion about him having a little man's complex only reflects on your since "Like speaks to Like", you recognise it, not everyone does, since they don't have a little man's complex.

    This is what rusko is referring to.
    dotGig
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  26. #26
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    Sean is a person, posting your opinion about him having a little man's complex only reflects on your since "Like speaks to Like", you recognise it, not everyone does, since they don't have a little man's complex.
    I think I understand what you are saying, but it's only an opinion.

    Like speaks to Like
    I don't thing you have read many of my posts, LOL
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  27. #27
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    I haven’t read all the thread but..............We used OPTIGOLD for around 3 months (testing) and found it to have some excellent features but also some limitations which held us back.

    Apart from that, it liked eating up resources. It used use 99% resources on Quad Xeon with 4GB RAM during use, pretty insane, so we just moved away from it....

    Still in search for an excellent solution........
    Last edited by cabalstudios; 10-17-2002 at 06:30 PM.
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  28. #28
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    Originally posted by RackMy.com
    I think I understand what you are saying, but it's only an opinion.

    I don't thing you have read many of my posts, LOL
    But, it's an opinion that has nothing to do with this thread.
    And I've read plenty of your posts. Yes this is a recurring theme.
    rusko and Samuel were right to point it out.

    As for Optigold; the simple fact that they offered the refund and didn't deliver, should be enough to sway anyone from using them.
    There is no best host. There is only the host that's best for you.

  29. #29
    softwarerevue,

    i actually took the time to read some of the posts in the optigold mailing list archives, specifically the ones in response to burstnet's complaint.

    i found it rather intriguing that everyone started defending optigold and flaming (deservedly) the tone of the post. i thought the optigold ceo handled it very graciously in terms of allowing burstnet to vent, however neither he nor anyone else there responded to the *essence* of burstnet's post.

    interesting how some people just stick their heads in the sand in the misguided belief that it cant happen to them. perhaps they assume that since they will continue to use the product and will never ask for a refund, they wont get cheated.

    you better believe that someone who displays a lack of business integrity on this level will find a way to scr*w you over. people like that are usually rather creative.

    as a sidenote, i looked at filemaker (the product optigold is built on), and i have this to say: someone should tell these guys about rdbms =]

    cheers,
    paul
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  30. #30
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    i found it rather intriguing that everyone started defending optigold and flaming (deservedly) the tone of the post. i thought the optigold ceo handled it very graciously in terms of allowing burstnet to vent, however neither he nor anyone else there responded to the *essence* of burstnet's post.

    interesting how some people just stick their heads in the sand in the misguided belief that it cant happen to them. perhaps they assume that since they will continue to use the product and will never ask for a refund, they wont get cheated.

    you better believe that someone who displays a lack of business integrity on this level will find a way to scr*w you over. people like that are usually rather creative.
    While I agree with you about the refund issue - I believe that there is more [maybe much more] to both sides than what either wants to air publicly. Shawn has shown that silence is better versus BurstNET's approach which is to rant and rave like a little kid.

    In terms of coming to the defense of Optigold - people need to understand that those who are on the list, including yours truly, use the product because we need to [in order for our business to work] and want to because of its many rich features. Shawn and the folks at Optigold have allowed the product to grow since before we started using it in 1998 by adding customer requested featured every two weeks. ....why wouldn't we come to the defense of Optigold and Shawn? If some one came into your sandbox and threw sand in your face wouldn't you throw the same back? or tell the bully to leave?

    <robb>

  31. #31
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    But, it's an opinion that has nothing to do with this thread.
    Sure it does, Burst - Optigold?

    PS. I do know you love Burst.net. I did not comment about their services
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  32. #32
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    Well, I use Optigold, have it configured to run locally on my Mac behind my firewall, and I have absolutely no complaints about its performance or supposed "security risks." I don't have Web Sharing (the OS X term for "Apache") nor File Sharing enabled on my computer, in addition to the firewall, so at this point I am choosing not to run the web-based side of it. In fairness I could, and I still might, I just want to make sure I take the time to really set it up right so that my system doesn't get compromised. In the meantime, for my use, it tracks my clients, sends out bills and receipts... and the price is right for a company my size (free).


    That said, point #2, I quote from Optigold's website:
    Returns must include an authorization number. Approved returns are subject to a 25% restocking fee. Shipping charges are non-refundable. Please check with your sales associate for details and limitations of returns.

    At best, it looks like Burst can expect 75% of their purchase price refunded, if they get a refund at all. We really can't sit here in judgment of the "limitations of returns" when we are neither Burst nor Optigold and this matter is entirely between them.


    I guess the moral of the story is, as always, read the fine print, and if you can take it for a test drive (for free, for heaven's sake), do so. I can't think of the last time I just up and bought a program without taking advantage of the free test drive.


    Bailey

  33. #33
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    Isn't it meaningful that the guy who started off this thread is keeping silent?

    There's obviously a lot more to this story than just asking for a refund. If Sean and his company can honestly claim that they have got no other interior motives, in addition to getting their 75% money back, he should give us a complete timeline of the actions from day one when they purchased this product.

    The claim they are riding on, "we will ruin their reputation", will not help them in the long run. Screams of vengeance isn't a reasonable cause for taking legal action. That shows how naive they are. They are just playing into the hands of optigold.

    With that phrase they are also accepting that optigold has a positive reputation, which they have set off to "ruin". Is this Sean a 12-year kiddo or what?

  34. #34
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    I suspect the original poster is dealing with other people at the moment.

    He has been posting the same flame-type material on a mailing list I am a member to, and while his first few posts were taken with a good nature, the last I knew he was getting a few verbal beatings from people for lack of a real problem and credibility.

  35. #35
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    Is this Sean a 12-year kiddo or what?
    Shawn is not 12 ....but is young....but what Internet company doesn't have young people??? To be honest, I believe that Shawn is the same age as Jerry Yang and David Filo.

  36. #36
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    Jerry is 30+
    David is 30+

    That's not young
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  37. #37
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    Originally posted by RackMy.com
    Jerry is 30+
    David is 30+

    That's not young
    Ha Ha! What an age we live in where a business person 30 years old ISN'T considered young. Before the dawn of the Interent, if you were 40 and owned a successful business, you were young.

  38. #38
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    lol, only a youngster would call a 30 year old "Not young"
    dotGig
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  39. #39
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    Originally posted by UmBillyCord


    Ha Ha! What an age we live in where a business person 30 years old ISN'T considered young. Before the dawn of the Interent, if you were 40 and owned a successful business, you were young.

    That just proves how much of a valuable asset it is.

    I like the idea that people can enter the chaos of the business world easier, at younger ages, and give themselves and their ideas a chance, and maybe make enough to retire on.

    --by the way, 30 isnt a kid...but it certainly isnt old either.
    (Or at 30, thats my unbiased opinion on it)

  40. #40
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    lol, only a youngster would call a 30 year old "Not young"
    Well, I am 30+
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