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  1. #1

    Question Semi-dedicated Servers

    I've run into problems with my reseller package because one of my sites has a very busy forum which - they said - used too much 'server resources'. They blocked my site and wouldn't unblock it until I'd removed the forum (and then they were d...n slow unblocking it! )

    I'm changing forums but that's unlikely to totally avoid the problem in the future - can't really afford (or need) a dedicated server - and doubt my ability to run one anyway. So have been looking at semi-dedicated servers, in particular the offer from @webhost This would give me one-sixth of a server with ample disc space and bandwidth for less than I'm paying for a (U.K.) reseller account with lousy customer service!

    Is there any downside to a semi-dedicated server? If my forum gets a bit heavy on server resources - will it be 'my' sixth - or the total server that's impacted? Is there any downside to hosting in the USA when I (and my clients) are in the U.K. (Apart from the phone bills if I need to ring support!) Sorry if these are DUMB questions - you can see why I'm worried about going the dedicated route!

    Any advice/thoughts much appreciated.

  2. #2
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    Wow! There is some serious "fudging" going on here:

    "With only 6 clients per server, you can host unlimited domains in one large plan"

    Wrong. They mean 6 Reseller accounts and if each can host "unlimited domains" the Server can end up with 100's of accounts -- i.e., clients.

    "150 GB of monthly bandwidth (bandwidth type BW-1A)"

    Besides the fact the link to "BW-1A" is invalid, so I have no idea what definition they are using, simple math says,
    6 Resellers @ 150GB ea. = 900GB per Server
    6 Resellers @ $50 / mth = $300 month income per Server

    Seems obvious to me, there is some serious over selling going on here. Even with today's prices, 900GB of data transfer is going to cost more than $300 month or close to it. Add-in their other costs of doing business and where is there room for profit?


    In the plan offered by @webhost (as with most hosting plans) all resources of the Server are shared by all accounts on the Server. Odds are, you will run into the same problems you've experienced before, but read their terms of service to be sure.

    You also need to make sure the Forum you are using is allowed. Getting to be more common these days where certain scripts, of any kind actually, are not allowed for various reasons. Usually because they have proven to be resource hogs.


    Cannot see a problem with USA Hosters and if you're worried about Long Distances charges, see if they have a VoIP program (like Yahoo Messenger) which allows for voice conversations without the hefty charges. I use it for Clients all over the world and it works great.
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  3. #3
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    I wouldn't even consider 'semi'-dedicated. For the same price you can get a host who offers 'virtual' dedicated. No shared resources. You will be given guaranteed resources so you will not have to worry about others. Semi-dedicated is nothing more then a shared server with less sites hosted. It is a poor companies version of a VDS.

    Do a search here to find a VDS host.

  4. #4
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    Yes, VDS is the ideal platform for semidedicated servers. Although there's nothing illegal/immoral/wrong with jumping on a server with 5 folks and splitting it up between you. I've seen this work very well with web developers etc.
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  5. #5
    Originally posted by Website Rob
    "With only 6 clients per server, you can host unlimited domains in one large plan"

    Wrong. They mean 6 Reseller accounts and if each can host "unlimited domains" the Server can end up with 100's of accounts -- i.e., clients.

    "150 GB of monthly bandwidth (bandwidth type BW-1A)"

    Besides the fact the link to "BW-1A" is invalid, so I have no idea what definition they are using, simple math says,
    6 Resellers @ 150GB ea. = 900GB per Server
    6 Resellers @ $50 / mth = $300 month income per Server

    Seems obvious to me, there is some serious over selling going on here. Even with today's prices, 900GB of data transfer is going to cost more than $300 month or close to it. Add-in their other costs of doing business and where is there room for profit?
    You are right, Website Rob. I think the same.
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  6. #6
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    Originally posted by Website Rob

    "150 GB of monthly bandwidth (bandwidth type BW-1A)"

    Besides the fact the link to "BW-1A" is invalid, so I have no idea what definition they are using, simple math says,
    6 Resellers @ 150GB ea. = 900GB per Server
    6 Resellers @ $50 / mth = $300 month income per Server

    Yeah, I was looking at that earlier today and the math just didn't seem to work out right. Even with the Cogent bandwidth, it still adds up wrong.

    Regardless, I have to give Asher the benefit of the doubt. He seems like he knows which end is up, so there must be some reasoning behind it.

  7. #7
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    Your calculations are definitely valid from mathematical point of view, but in actual reality I don't think they'll hold true.

    Your assumption is each reseller will use 150GB. That is not necessarily, and will not be true.

    I think someone using simi-dedicated servers, as soon as they hit 50GB Bandwidth point, they'll start considering dedicated servers due to the more flexibility and storage needs.

    In addition, If I'd to have 100 clients on my reseller account, I'll not even bother with simi dedicated. That is enough money to get me moving towards higher dedicated servers. I guess @webhost considered these points when they designed the plans. In addition, the plans seem to be targeted towards resellers more than one-domain users.
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  8. #8
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    Originally posted by tamouh
    Your calculations are definitely valid from mathematical point of view, but in actual reality I don't think they'll hold true.

    Your assumption is each reseller will use 150GB. That is not necessarily, and will not be true.

    I think someone using simi-dedicated servers, as soon as they hit 50GB Bandwidth point, they'll start considering dedicated servers due to the more flexibility and storage needs.

    In addition, If I'd to have 100 clients on my reseller account, I'll not even bother with simi dedicated. That is enough money to get me moving towards higher dedicated servers. I guess @webhost considered these points when they designed the plans. In addition, the plans seem to be targeted towards resellers more than one-domain users.
    Well, of course there's overselling going on. Nobody questioned that. It's the amount of overselling that doesn't seem to sit right.

  9. #9
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    There is a market in the semi dedicated space, but it's tight. You'd have to split up a server maybe in 8 to 10 lots and charge $75 - $100/mth each, just to make the server worthwhile. This might not seem like enough revenue for the single domain hosts with 500 accounts per server, but it's a different market.

    Good dedicated servers start at around the $300/mth, so there's some breathing space between the $100/mth cost for the semi-dedicated and the $300/mth for the dedicated.

    For the host starting out, a semi dedicated server with 8 to 10 accounts, could be better than starting at a reseller account or a dedicated server. It's in between those 2 markets that the offerring exists.
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  10. #10
    Originally posted by tamouh
    Your calculations are definitely valid from mathematical point of view, but in actual reality I don't think they'll hold true.

    Your assumption is each reseller will use 150GB. That is not necessarily, and will not be true.

    I think someone using simi-dedicated servers, as soon as they hit 50GB Bandwidth point, they'll start considering dedicated servers due to the more flexibility and storage needs.

    In addition, If I'd to have 100 clients on my reseller account, I'll not even bother with simi dedicated. That is enough money to get me moving towards higher dedicated servers. I guess @webhost considered these points when they designed the plans. In addition, the plans seem to be targeted towards resellers more than one-domain users.
    Everything you said seems right but do you think they're overselling? Can I offer 200GB bandwidth at the same price? BTW, I don't think "6 clients per server" has any value, we should limit the number of client per server depending on the resource usage, there is not much different between 6 and 20 (or more) reseller accounts on a server.
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  11. #11
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    Originally posted by NetworksData
    BTW, I don't think "6 clients per server" has any value, we should limit the number of client per server depending on the resource usage, there is not much different between 6 and 20 (or more) reseller accounts on a server.
    True words. I love the simplistic arguments that are based around the "number" of accounts etc. Maybe folks should be taking notice in what each account was promised as far as disk space and data transfer. That just might have some slight bearing on the reliability of the server in question.

    1 account could be promised 50Gb disk space and 750GB data transfer/mth. That 1 account could push that server to hell and back. But hey, there's only 1 other account on the server you're on - so you're safe as.

    Yes, I was being sarcastic.
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  12. #12
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    I actually reviewed their website again, and they are selling 25GB transfer for $15/mo.

    So I guess it cost them $10/mo. per 25GB transfer.

    Now taking the assumption the server need 900GB Transfer (This must be jumbo server).

    IT will cost them $360 for 900GB. (That is $60 more than their cost)

    Taking Risk management in account, how long will it take for 6 resellers to reach 150GB bandwidth ?

    I would say, a year. So in year, making $300 x 12 = $3600

    Server cost $1500 /year. Upgrades = $500 / year
    Bandwidth = $1000 / year

    They are left with $600 / Year as net profit from one server.

    I don't disagree with you there is overselling, but if calculated properly, it would make sense. How about life insurace ? You pya $20 / mo. , if I just purchased the insurance and I die tomorrow, the insurance company will make a loss of $100,000. However, how likely it is that I purchase a life insurace and die tomorrow ??

    I think their plan is well calculated. If they'd redeuce the number of resellers per account, it might even be better!
    Reliability • Performance • Integrity

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by tamouh
    So I guess it cost them $10/mo. per 25GB transfer.
    absolutely wrong, why bother 'guessing' how much we pay for our bandwidth when you really have absolutely no idea?

    please do not get me wrong, you are most certainly entitled to your concerns, but trying to guess what our costs are doesnt seem right, or fair to me, unless you got a hold of our accounting books.
    note: you are also incorrect about the pricing of our servers

    @Webhost is under very qualified management, its brought to you by one of the owners of Acenet (who own hostcharge), id like to assure you that this pricing was not created on a whim, and a sound business plan is in place

    is there overselling going on? not even.. all i can say is that even if clients use all their bandwidth, we do not make a loss, or even close to it

    i should also add, saying we put 6clients per server is just a measurement. if resource consumption ends up being too high, we will put less clients per server and ensure the highest quality.

    thank you
    Last edited by lionfire; 09-21-2002 at 11:59 PM.

  14. #14
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    Greetings,

    I just love it when fellow webhosts jump in to bash another webhost to get a peice of their business... its the best thing about WHT actually . While obviously you'd start flaring up when someone passed a comment about your company, I on the other hand will not do anything of that sort since its beneath my dignity.

    Overselling ? 900gb is overselling ? Lets see how you ran those numbers? How much does Cogent cost? It costs $30 / meg ... 900gb is roughly 3 megs... calculate that. Added even our NTT/Verio redundancy by no means are we overselling. Even if our clients were to use all their bandwidth we would still make a very nice profit. By no means do we oversell our resources to an extent where our services would be no longer profittable to us in order to attain short term supernormal profits.

    Or are you implying that a server cannot take 900gb of bandwidth? Absolutely incorrect, we have colocated and semi
    dedicated clients who push far beyond that.

    When you compare a VDS to a SEMI DEDICATED server that we are offering, I can tell you ways in which a semi dedicated server is far better than a VDS. Semi dedicated gives you more room to grow in... we keep a very strict eye on ALL our servers performance to make sure everyone gets their fair share of resouces.

    @Webhost.com is an operation which has been in planning since a long time. We know what we're doing. Next time you want to bash a company please pick another one, since you wont find any major flaws with us.

    All the best,
    Asher Saeed.

    [Edited to add a word]
    Last edited by Asher S; 09-22-2002 at 02:15 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Originally posted by ^Kyo
    @Webhost.com is an operation which has been in planning since a long time. We know what we're doing. Next time you want to bash a company please pick another one, since you wont find any flaws with us.
    While I shun away from pointless flaming making arrogant statements like that is nothing but a sign of immaturity or complete self delusion.

    We all have flaws. We wouldn't be human if we didn't.
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  16. #16
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    Originally posted by Aussie Bob

    While I shun away from pointless flaming making arrogant statements like that is nothing but a sign of immaturity or complete self delusion.

    We all have flaws. We wouldn't be human if we didn't.
    So you are saying that I'm immature or I am delusional about my own company? While bashing another webhost to make a buck isn't? Sure we may have small flaws here and there but you really wont find any eminent flaws in my companies.

    Asher.
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  17. #17
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    Originally posted by ^Kyo
    So you are saying that I'm immature or I am delusional about my own company?
    Yes, absolutely. When you say things like -
    since you wont find any flaws with us.
    That's a sign of severe arrogance and you're setting yourself up for a fall if you truly have that attitude.
    While bashing another webhost to make a buck isn't?
    I've not bashed anyone in this thread or others. Read back through my posts in this thread.
    Sure we may have small flaws here and there but you really wont find any eminent flaws in my companies.
    Glad you clarified that from "you won't find any flaws with us" to "sure we have small flaws".

    Just for the record, I think the semi-dedicated model is good. VDS is probably the ultimate Semi-dedicated model, but as I said in this thread -
    Yes, VDS is the ideal platform for semidedicated servers. Although there's nothing illegal/immoral/wrong with jumping on a server with 5 folks and splitting it up between you. I've seen this work very well with web developers etc.
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  18. #18
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    Originally posted by Aussie Bob

    Yes, absolutely. When you say things like -

    That's a sign of severe arrogance and you're setting yourself up for a fall if you truly have that attitude.

    I've not bashed anyone in this thread or others. Read back through my posts in this thread.

    Glad you clarified that from "you won't find any flaws with us" to "sure we have small flaws".

    Just for the record, I think the semi-dedicated model is good. VDS is probably the ultimate Semi-dedicated model, but as I said in this thread -
    To begin with, I wasnt mentioning you in my orignal post... so you pretty much jumped the gun by calling me arrogant... I beleive an apology from you is due.

    Asher.
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  19. #19
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    Guys.... Guys... Guys...

    This thread is going nowhere, and doesn't inflict a positive effect on either company.

    It is very stupid for something like 'arrogance' to be argued over. Everybody has it!

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by ^Kyo
    To begin with, I wasnt mentioning you in my orignal post... so you pretty much jumped the gun by calling me arrogant... I beleive an apology from you is due.
    Absolutely not. I was making a personal observation from your statement -
    Next time you want to bash a company please pick another one, since you wont find any flaws with us.
    You claim that you have no flaws. You made that statement. I replied that a statement like that is arrogant. Do you wish to retract that statement?
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  21. #21
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    Originally posted by Aussie Bob

    Absolutely not. I was making a personal observation from your statement -

    You claim that you have no flaws. You made that statement. I replied that a statement like that is arrogant. Do you wish to retract that statement?
    Calling somone arrogant is pretty immature, like phpcoder said we all have it. Sure I am arrogant to a certain extent I dont deny it. But it never hurt my business nor will. I am proud of my company plain and simple.

    And NO I will not retract my statement. Thank you.

    Asher.
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by ^Kyo
    Calling somone arrogant is pretty immature, like phpcoder said we all have it.
    Calling you arrogant is a factual observation made evident from your statement about not having any flaws.
    Sure I am arrogant to a certain extent I dont deny it.
    Thank you.
    But it never hurt my business nor will. I am proud of my company plain and simple.
    I guess you'll just have to learn that arrogance and the attitude that you're without "flaws" will harm you and your business in the long run. Age and maturity will teach you this one. If you think you're infallible and perfect, then you're wide open to failure.
    And NO I will not retract my statement. Thank you.
    You contradicted your statement anyways -
    since you wont find any flaws with us
    and -
    Sure we may have small flaws here and there but you really wont find any eminent flaws in my companies.
    So it's of little value. I do hope that we can end this discussion on this positive note?
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  23. #23
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    "Age and maturity"

    Do you have any idea Aussie Bob, how old I am ? Do not comment about what you don't know. I don't pass comments about you. Its absolutely beneath my dignity to pass comments about anyone as a matter of fact. If you like stooping low its your choice.

    Secondly in my orignal reponse (and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out) I was referring to major flaws. Not minor flaws.

    Asher.
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  24. #24
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    Meanwhile lads...back at the ranch.

    I wonder whether there's a lot of scope for either semi-dedicated or VPS. The VPS model has been around for a while, without making a whole lot of impact. The semi-dedicated idea is fairly new, and doesn't offer much more than bare capacity between a reseller plan and a dedicated/managed box. So, it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

    Cheers

    Gary

  25. #25
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    Originally posted by ^Kyo
    Secondly in my orignal reponse (and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out) I was referring to major flaws. Not minor flaws.
    Funny though. I along with everyone else remembered reading -
    ....since you wont find any flaws with us.
    But good to see that you've changed that to "major flaws" instead of "minor flaws". I was confused for a bit there.

    Anyways, I imagine Chicken will be here soon to do his job. If you make statement like "since you wont find any flaws with us." I will comment that a statement like that is arrogant and immature. Factual observation from statements made.

    If you don't want folks to make comments like mine, then don't make statements like that.

    Thank you.
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