View Poll Results: What Is Your Opinion About SPEWS.org!

Voters
63. You may not vote on this poll
  • SPEWS is a very ineffective tool that also damages a lot if legitimate Non-Spam webhosting comapies.

    49 77.78%
  • SPEWS is a very ineffective tool but does no harm to anyone.

    0 0%
  • SPEWS is a good tool that helps internet users defend against spam

    3 4.76%
  • SPEWS is a good tool that helps internet users and also web hosting companies defend against spam

    11 17.46%
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  1. #1

    Exclamation SPEWS.org is it a Menace? You Decide! This could happen to you!

    I am sure everyone here by now has had many spammers on their servers and like most of the responsible webhosts worldwide you have deleted their accounts as soon as you find out.

    Also I am sure that most of you have been listed by a stupid organization called SPEWS which is doing more harm than good.

    SPEWS claims that it is helping stop spam but instead it is just helping to hurt the reputation of Honest Web Hosts with their clients.

    What it does is that once it detects that you have a spammer on your server or even a site that is itself not sending spam but promotes spam SPEWS immediately lists the IP address of your server or sometimes your whole IP range in its database which many ISPs use to filter spam e-mails. Now any e-mail originating from those IPs will be blocked by ISPs using the SPEWS databse.

    The main problem is that even after we delete the spammers from our servers SPEWS does not remove our IPs. ANd for those of us who do name-based hosting this is very very dangerous as just becuase of one spammer whoi was on our server for not more than a few days the other 500 Honest, Innocent clients who are not spammers have to pay the price as their e-mails are blocked too.
    This proves that just to prevent one spammer who by the way quickly changes hosts and is not affected at all, hundreds of our clients have to pay the price.

    I have tried to contact SPEWS without any luck so I have decided to beat the SPEWS system instead of trying to change it.

    I am SICK of SPEWS and other databases like this becuase instead of helping us they are hurting us.


    -=-=-=-=-= IMPORTANT =-=-=-=-=-
    Those who have not read this full post should not think that I am a pro-spam activists. Infact I hate spam and do everything possible to keep my network spam free but there is no 100% gurantee that one of them won't slip by my defences. Infact my screening method is so tough that many genuine clients leave me for being too tough on them. I do not mind that as that is my duty.

    Also this thread in not for a pro-spam vs anti-spam war, this is only for strong anti-spam supporters and the topic of the discussion is wether our anti-spam techniques (SPEWS.org) have paid off or not.
    Last edited by SurfTurtle; 09-18-2002 at 01:25 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Oh goody! Another SPEWS thread. Let the wars begin!

    There are a couple of die-hard SPEWS supporters on this forum. I am a die-hard anti-SPEWS supporter on this forum. We've got one or two (last I checked) IPs listed on SPEWS. It has affected all of about 2 of our customers, and they told me they dealt with it themselves (talked to their ISPs/providers?). Anyone who uses SPEWS needs to be properly educated about how SPEWS works, otherwise they wouldn't be using them.

    Oh, and as far as I know, the only way to get yourself off of the SPEWS list is to post to a public newsgroup asking them to do so. Not only is it a public forum where you'll get raped with obnoxious pro-spammer comments, but it's not even guaranteed you'll get delisted. I refuse to post to any newsgroup regarding delisting, which is why our IP addresses are and will remain listed. We handle all of the other lists accordingly (spamcop is the best one out there at handling this stuff, IMO -- they're fast and there is a warm body to communicate to, at least in my experience).

    I'm sure I'll get flamed by a couple of you, so I've got my suit on.
    Alex Llera
    Professional Server Management
    FreeBSD|Linux|HSphere|Cpanel|Plesk
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  3. #3
    i'm ready to take anything and everything those pro-spammers have to throw at me and I too do not want to list my ips in a public forum which is why i am researching other ways of getting rid of the SPEWS problem myself such as changing my IP addresses.

    Also everyone should remember that this thread is not intended and neither should it be used for a pro-spam and anti-spam war.

    This thread is only for anti-spam people like myself and this thread is only to discuss the effectiveness of SPEWS or even the damages caysed by SPEWS.

    Also again i would like to say that I am not anti-spam and I like the idea of having a gloabl and extensive database of spammers to protect from spamming but SPEWS is not living up to that objective instead SPEWS is more of a database of web hosts who were victims on spammers and instead turn into victims of SPEWS.
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  4. #4
    Hey, now is'nt that great, I just got an idea on how to get around the SPEWS problem. But this only works for Win2k HostingController based servers. They have the option of running the mailservers on another machine so that the Ips of the mailservers are different this way their mails can't be blocked by SPEWS.

    WOW! is it that easy? Please comment on my theory, also can it be done with other systems such as Linux(CPanel), etc.
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  5. #5
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    Re: SPEWS.org is it a Menace? You Decide! This could happen to you!

    Originally posted by SurfTurtle
    The main problem is that even after we delete the spammers from our servers SPEWS does not remove our IPs.
    Before I comment on the rest of your post, could you please post your SPEWS case number and/or affected IP range so that we may get a better picture of what happened?

    -Bob
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  6. #6
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    i'm with you on the anti spews bandwagon. theres alot of host on here. maybe between the lot of us we could come up with a competitor?
    l 201TB.com • 201TB bandwidth as standard in three USA DC’s. KVMoIP, auto reboot & OS install all included - Now available in the Netherlands!
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  7. #7
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    doubtful. pathatic anti-spam groups like spews are sadly not exactly easy to get rid of.
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  8. #8
    Originally posted by thebyp2
    i'm with you on the anti spews bandwagon. theres alot of host on here. maybe between the lot of us we could come up with a competitor?
    Yes we could, here is my first contribution to this idea.
    I think that we Web Hosting Companies should have a spammer database of our own that will warn us about spam-related domain names before we host them. This way spammers are the losers instead of us. They never get hosted so they never get to benefit from our hard honest work. This datavase should consist of domain names, and names and e-mail addresses of spammers.

    The ideal thing would be to get it integrated into our billing softwares such as ModernBill.com, DearmHost, WebHostBilling, Ubersmith, etc. and whenever a new order comes in it is first check with the spammer database before hosting it. This way we can avoid tons of spam related problems even before they happen.
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  9. #9
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    Allera,

    Your post is so full of innaccuracies, it's almost laughable.

    Originally posted by allera

    Oh, and as far as I know, the only way to get yourself off of the SPEWS list is to post to a public newsgroup asking them to do so. Not only is it a public forum where you'll get raped with obnoxious pro-spammer comments, but it's not even guaranteed you'll get delisted.
    Thats completely untrue. First of all, if you would bother to read the SPEWS FAQ, it explicitly states that the way to gut de-listed from SPEWS is to stop the spam. Period. The newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.email is suggested as a good place to discuss the problem, but that's it.

    Here, directly from the SPEWS FAQ:

    Note that posting messages in these newsgroups & lists will not have any effect on SPEWS listings, only the discontinuation of spam and/or spam support will.

    Furthermore, your comment about getting "raped with obnoxious pro-spammer arguments" is ridiculous. NANAE is an anti-spam newsgroup.

    I refuse to post to any newsgroup regarding delisting, which is why our IP addresses are and will remain listed.
    If you remain listed, I can promise you it has nothing to do with your willingness or lack thereof to post in a public newsgroup.

    Please take a moment to read the FAQ located at http://spews.org/faq.html . You probably still won't like it any better, but at least you'll be able to speak about the how's and whys of SPEWS a bit more knowledgeably.

    -Bob
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  10. #10
    I did read the long faq that is tailored more for spammers than it is for people like me.

    It has question after question that is only relevant to spammers.

    Anyway I knew about the forum but not everybody wants to list their IP addresses in a public forum. Just one of the reasons is that even more spammers might see that IP address and abuse our servers even more.
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  11. #11
    from the polls i see that there are now pro-SPEWS people on this thread, would you care to share with us instances where SPEWS actually helped people. And also what about the 500+ websites that have to suffer just to stop one spammer, and remember that its not for sure that the spammer is stopped but those 500+ websites do suffer for sure.
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  12. #12
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    Originally posted by SurfTurtle
    i see that there are now pro-SPEWS people on this thread, would you care to share with us instances where SPEWS actually helped people.
    Sure. It's helped me, for starters. It's also helped everyone else who uses the SPEWS list to keep a tremendous amount of spam out of their networks. It's also alerted some formerly spam-tolerant networks to the extent of their problem, to the point where some have finally been motivated to get off their asses and do something about it. XO communications is a good example of just such a company. They're still far from perfect, but they are actively trying to solve their spam problems. H.E., on the other hand, is an example of a company who will never, ever get it, and will probably stay listed until the end of time.


    And also what about the 500+ websites that have to suffer just to stop one spammer, and remember that its not for sure that the spammer is stopped but those 500+ websites do suffer for sure.
    First off, SPEWS doesn't start out listing these huge netblocks. A listing will usually start with one IP or a very small handful of IPs surrounding the offending IP. From there, if spam complaints go ignored and the spam continues, the size of the listing is gradually expanded until it gets someone's attention. If the listing grows to include "500+ websites", then so be it. Frankly, it is not my problem. I trust SPEWS, which is why I use it.

    These "500+ websites", on the other hand, should realize that their problem is not with SPEWS, but rather with their provider for allowing the spam to flow unhindered. That's what they should be bitching about.

    The thing you need to understand is that people who subscribe to SPEWS do so because they do not want traffic from spammers or spam-tolerant providers. I am under no obligation to carry or allow any traffic from anyone who I choose not to, and by using SPEWS, I am excercising my right to keep spammers and spam-tolerant providers out of my machines. Why is that so difficult to understand?

    I'm still waiting for your spews case number, btw. If you have a legitimate complaint, I'm sure you won't have a problem posting it. You can PM me if you prefer not to make it public.

    -Bob
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  13. #13
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    I can see both sides. I think everyone agrees that the core of the problem is the spammers.

    Webhosts are unfairly, IMHO, being given the burden of dealing with this massive problem. OTOH, every business has it's problems to overcome so that's life. I think there is something to be said for the concept that someone may want to do everything possible to get rid of spam and if they are upfront about what they are doing, I can understand people signing up with them and they have the right to keep out whatever traffic they want.

    However, I'm amazed that the government has done basically zilch about this growing problems. The DMA should not be such a big lobby that the entire world has to suffer so that people can send out spam.

    The rules for spam should be very clear cut, and failure to follow the rules should result in prosecution, period. A lot of these spammers can be identified and they would be sued if what they did was illegal.

    And selling the software to spam should be double illegal. They should all be on double secret probation
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  14. #14
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    I noticed the other day that kernel.org posted something essentially ranting about SPEWS -- apparently, a spammer has a nearby ISP, and SPEWS has overzealously started blocking other people, including the kernel.org mailing list server. They state that this has occurred repeatedly, and they usually unblock it, but that they're fed up with having to repeatedly get themselves removed for spam someone not even related to them sends out. They conclude " For obvious reasons, we do not recommend that you use the SPEWS RBL."

    I haven't used it personally, but it sounds like SPEWS has some serious problems that need to be worked out. I'd rather get a deluge of spam than have legitimate mail rejected, and, in my opinion, any list that wrongfully blacklists innocent sources is doing a lot more harm than good, and should either clean up their act or people should stop using it.
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  15. #15
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    Originally posted by TMX
    Thats completely untrue. First of all, if you would bother to read the SPEWS FAQ, it explicitly states that the way to gut de-listed from SPEWS is to stop the spam. Period. The newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.email is suggested as a good place to discuss the problem, but that's it.

    Here, directly from the SPEWS FAQ:

    Note that posting messages in these newsgroups & lists will not have any effect on SPEWS listings, only the discontinuation of spam and/or spam support will.
    Uh huh. So let's see. We'll go to my case (look up mail.focalhosting.com and you should find it, I care not to look it up again -- be prepared to read because it's damn long). We host a domain themeetingspot.com or something like that. They have some kind of referral program where they give their users an ID, that user gives the link+ID to a friend, the friend signs up, the user gets some perk or something. Well, some user decided to spam his own little link like mad crazy. So in return, themeetingspot.com get tagged as a spammer. We get tagged as a spam-friendly host because we refuse to remove our customer who had nothing to do with the spamming (their user did). So what happens to us? We get our IP address(es) listed. Why are they still listed? Because we still host themeetingspot.com. Why do we host them? Because they are innocent and not a single soul has brought me any shred of evidence that they are not.

    Don't come preaching to me that the discontinuation of spam and/or spam support will delist us. SPEWS is an automatic list, and that in itself is its flaw. You can preach how people use it and are happy with it blah blah all you want, but it's a flawed system and anyone who uses it need to be educated on its flaws.

    Furthermore, your comment about getting "raped with obnoxious pro-spammer arguments" is ridiculous. NANAE is an anti-spam newsgroup.
    You need to quote me better: "raped with obnoxious pro-spammer comments," meaning the poster is often attacked. I read the posts, I don't make this up. I am disgusted with that newsgroup. That's my own opinion. You have yours. I don't care to hear about it.


    Please take a moment to read the FAQ located at http://spews.org/faq.html . You probably still won't like it any better, but at least you'll be able to speak about the how's and whys of SPEWS a bit more knowledgeably.
    That FAQ disgusts me. I've read it a couple of times and I get angry when I read it. I am a very calm person and I very rarely get angry. But the way SPEWS goes about doing things is flat out wrong. SPEWS will crumble one day, people are already starting to avoid it. It's just a matter of time. For this reason, I'll repeat again, I do not care that our IP address(s) are listed. If it makes SPEWS happy that they feel they are stopping a spam-friendly host from delivering mail to their followers, I'm happy for them.
    Alex Llera
    Professional Server Management
    FreeBSD|Linux|HSphere|Cpanel|Plesk
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  16. #16
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    Originally posted by TMX
    Sure. It's helped me, for starters. It's also helped everyone else who uses the SPEWS list to keep a tremendous amount of spam out of their networks.
    It's kinda hard to get spam when a large portion of provider IP addresses are blocked. You're right, SPEWS does work as far as keeping your mailbox free (relatively speaking) from spam, but at what price?
    Alex Llera
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    FreeBSD|Linux|HSphere|Cpanel|Plesk
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  17. #17
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    Originally posted by fog
    ... any list that wrongfully blacklists innocent sources is doing a lot more harm than good, and should either clean up their act or people should stop using it.
    Very well said. You hit the nail right on the head.
    Alex Llera
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  18. #18
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    Originally posted by allera

    Uh huh. So let's see. We'll go to my case (look up mail.focalhosting.com and you should find it, I care not to look it up again -- be prepared to read because it's damn long).
    Already did.



    Well, some user decided to spam his own little link like mad crazy. So in return, themeetingspot.com get tagged as a spammer. We get tagged as a spam-friendly host because we refuse to remove our customer who had nothing to do with the spamming (their user did).
    I see your point. However, I also know that if I had a dime for every referral spam that landed in my various inboxes since the beginning of the year, I would have a very large bank account by now.

    If, like me, you subscribe to the theory that "referral programs" practically encourage spam, then you will also come to the conclusion that continuing to host such a site can be considered spam support, therefore earning you your rightful spot in spews.

    That said, I also don't see where themeetingspot.com has had any complaints in quite some time. I also don't see it's current IP listed in SPEWS anymore.

    Is there something else going on here? What's your relationship with the "aussie porn spamhaus" from the old listing? Either I'm missing the boat, or there's more to this than meets the eye..

    Don't come preaching to me that the discontinuation of spam and/or spam support will delist us.
    I'm not preaching, I'm stating a fact. People get de-listed every single day. How? They eliminate the spam and the spammers from their networks.

    You can preach how people use it and are happy with it blah blah all you want, but it's a flawed system and anyone who uses it need to be educated on its flaws.
    There's educating people on it's flaws, and then there's talking nonsense and trying to pass it off as fact, which is what you were doing.

    I agree that people need to be made aware of both the pros and cons of using a list as agressive as SPEWS. At any rate, I never said SPEWS was perfect, I said it works for me.

    You need to quote me better: "raped with obnoxious pro-spammer comments," meaning the poster is often attacked.
    It doesn't read any better that way either. "Pro-spammer comments" would be comments in favor of spammers, would they not?

    I read the posts, I don't make this up. I am disgusted with that newsgroup. That's my own opinion.
    That newsgroup, as with anywhere else, has it's sane, rational people, and then it has it's nutjobs and plain old nasty bastards. It's the latter group, unfortunately, which has given it the reputation it has.

    You have yours. I don't care to hear about it.
    Then why did you even bother posting?

    -Bob
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  19. #19
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    I retract any positive things I said about spews.
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  20. #20
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    Spews is brilliant!

    If only the postal service did this with snail mail! A junk mailer lives in your apartment and that address and the apartment complex gets blacklisted. Each post office could choose if it wanted to use the blacklist or not! Your mail could get tagged, bagged, and tossed at any point along the way. Maybe the whole block will be listed or the whole town! Simply brilliant!

    You'd get less junk mail, for sure...
    HostHideout.com - Where professionals discuss web hosting.

    • Chicken
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  21. #21
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    Although there are a lot of problems w/ affiliate programs, it's a little much to punish honest companies using affiliate programs. I think the aff systems like linkshare should have some standard verbiage which would make the client legally liable in a big way for spamming...that would do a good job in reducing affiliate-related spam...

    However, there are good uses for the affiliate system...and if we punish the honest people because of some bad spammers then the terrorists will have won.
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  22. #22
    Originally posted by TMX


    First off, SPEWS doesn't start out listing these huge netblocks. A listing will usually start with one IP or a very small handful of IPs surrounding the offending IP. From there, if spam complaints go ignored and the spam continues, the size of the listing is gradually expanded until it gets someone's attention. If the listing grows to include "500+ websites", then so be it. Frankly, it is not my problem. I trust SPEWS, which is why I use it.

    -Bob
    I am not saying that they block huge IP blocks, but what about those of us who are doing name-based hosting.
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  23. #23
    Many of the supporters of SPEWS say that SPEWS is a private organization that can deny anyones mail without any reason.

    I would like to have a go at this unfair yet very strong argument. Take a normal user for example it takes him about 10 mins a day deleting spam e-mails from his inbox at max. But what if someone was to say that I can eliminate the spam problem for you and save your 10 mins. He would thank god for this great person or service and say sure what do i need to do? Now he only spends 2 mins a day deleting the few spam that got through but is very happy. But what he does'nt know is that his bank/employer/lover sent him an urgent e-mail which he must urgently respond to but what do you know, he never got the doomed e-mail becuase the ISP that the sender was unknowingly using was blocked.

    Now I ask everyone to decide that was this man helped or stabbed in the back by this person who claimed to save 8 lousy mins for this innocent person.

    I say SPEWS is a lousy organization which is hiding behind the 'right to deny access to anyone law' just becuase its scared to admit its own failures.

    I do not believe that SPEWS can deny access to anyone they like becuase they gave up that right by inviting the whole world to use thier database. They are a public database and should behave in a responsible manner otherwise it should be shut down, but again I must stress that we do need an EFFECTIVE system in its place to help prevent spam.

    SPEWS should act responsibly, but there is noone realizes how much damage SPEWS has done to them atleast as far as the average internet user is convcerned becuase he never finds out what important e-mails were blocked by SPEWS.

    As they say "What you don't know can't hurt you" but in this case this is hurting not only WebHosting companies who 'know' about it but it is also hurting on a far greater scale innocent unknowing internet users. The very people that SPEWS is supposed to be helping is being slow poisoned by it.
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  24. #24
    Originally posted by SurfTurtle


    I am not saying that they block huge IP blocks, but what about those of us who are doing name-based hosting.
    Chicken,
    you are absolutely right, and the ironic part is that noone in that apartment block will realize this until its too late. They will infact be very happy.

    This thread is getting very interesting, is there a was I can start another poll in this same thread?
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  25. #25
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  26. #26
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    Originally posted by sup?
    I think the aff systems like linkshare should have some standard verbiage which would make the client legally liable in a big way for spamming...that would do a good job in reducing affiliate-related spam...
    Verbiage is meaningless if there is no enforcement. Years of ISPs and hosts turning a blind eye to their spamming customers who went about their business in full violation of their AUP's are what ultimately brought organizations like spews into existance in the first place.

    -Bob
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  27. #27
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    Originally posted by Chicken
    Spews is brilliant!

    If only the postal service did this with snail mail! A junk mailer lives in your apartment and that address and the apartment complex gets blacklisted. Each post office could choose if it wanted to use the blacklist or not! Your mail could get tagged, bagged, and tossed at any point along the way. Maybe the whole block will be listed or the whole town! Simply brilliant!

    You'd get less junk mail, for sure...
    Haha well said, I had this big long post working and I read your reply and figured hell I'll just quote you, this pretty much sums it up.
    Gary Harris - the artist formerly known as Dixiesys
    resident grumpy redneck
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  28. #28
    As an end user (not a webhost) I've been affected by SPEWS. After reading their newsgroup though I decided it was a waste of time to complain. On the other hand I wish great success to anyone trying to put them out of business. Spam is on the increase and I've not seen any hard evidence that they have made a dent in it. I *have* seen eveidence that several of them seem to be on some sort of power trip and are not particularly interested in whether they are effective or not. They just like the attention they get.

    Their FAQ admits to being self contradictory. The fact that they are both ineffective and don't even have a concise, uniform mission should give any administrator a clue about the value of their list.

    Anyone who says: "by using their list my system has to deal with a lot less spam" I have this advise... Just block every other message, or whatever percentage you need to block to make your system handle the load, I think you will see about the same effect.

    If these guys *really* cared that much about sopping spammers they would be energetic about protecting innocent users from being blocked... I see no such energy from them. They also don't block the mega mailers like AOL or MSN... why should they be exempt? Sounds like hypocrisy to me.
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  29. #29
    I couldn't resist adding this...the very next posting I saw in their newsgroup... first a plea from an end user who is having mail blocked, followed by their typical response:

    ------------- quote----
    our provider was included in a range of addresses blocked by SPEWS. We

    > have

    >> no relationship with the online casino mentioned in the evidence file and
    >> would appreciate timely removal of 209.196.49.119 from your list.


    We have no relationship with said casino spammer, either, yet your ISP
    sees fit to alow them to continue to spam us. The only way that listing
    will be removed is when the spammer is gone... you'll need to contact
    your ISP and get them to boot the spammer. Don't accept a
    renumbering... if they keep the spammer around, the block will grow and
    you'll be right back in it. If your ISP values the spammers' business
    more than yours, well, you'll have learned a little something to watch
    for in your search for another ISP.

    ----------end quote----

    I spent months selecting my current hosting company. What finally convinced me to try them was their stated policies on spam and adult material (forbidden). The SPEW people ignore the realities of the end user , including small organizations who can't afford to hop from webhost to webhost every few weeks. The SPEWS people are the ones who need to be educated... to the workings of the real world.
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  30. #30
    Originally posted by macb
    I spent months selecting my current hosting company. What finally convinced me to try them was their stated policies on spam and adult material (forbidden). The SPEW people ignore the realities of the end user , including small organizations who can't afford to hop from webhost to webhost every few weeks. The SPEWS people are the ones who need to be educated... to the workings of the real world.
    That is very true, not everyone can jump hosts as quickly as those spammers. This means spammers can enjoy total freedom by jumping hosts every time, but the innocent small businesses and users get to pay for the damages caused by them.

    Is this the vision of SPEWS of a fair and just world? Where the culprits do the damages but the bystanders are made to pay for it?

    I can prove this as this has happened to many of my clients. More than a dozen of my clients have been seriously affected by SPEWS but none of them have left me so far as it is to much costly for them. And also most of them don't even know how to change hosts so they are stuck with the SPEWS blacklist.

    I challenge any SPEWS supporter to prove that SPEWS is helping fight spam. Just visit SPEWS.org and lookup a random case. And then check whether the spammer listed in SPEWS is still operating or not. I can guarantee that 90% of the spammers' websites will still be working. Is this what you call progress? and also see his damage trail, at least 5-10 ISPs/WebHosts will be listed there which proves that they had to suffer becuase of this ONE spammer.

    Now do this with another random case and another one and you will always find the same thing. So now tell me how you think SPEWS is good for us.
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  31. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    1,210
    Originally posted by macb
    The SPEWS people are the ones who need to be educated... to the workings of the real world.
    Same could be said for those who think they're entitled to my inbox. In the real world, if someone doesn't want to accept your email traffic, they are under no obligation to do so.

    Let me ask you this - if your IP gets caught up in a spews listing as a result of your provider not taking action against spammers, why aren't you complaining to your provider?

    -Bob
    Last edited by TMX; 09-18-2002 at 04:33 AM.
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  32. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    1,210
    Originally posted by SurfTurtle
    I can prove this as this has happened to many of my clients. More than a dozen of my clients have been seriously affected by SPEWS but none of them have left me so far as it is to much costly for them.
    OK, so prove it - give us your spews case number, which I've asked you for twice now.

    You keep singing this "poor me" song, yet you have not put forth one shred of evidence to support your claims of wrongdoing by spews. With all due respect, I think the phrase "put up or shut up" is appropriate at this point.

    -Bob
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  33. #33
    I will defend anybody's right to compile any spammer's blacklist however imperfect. And they will all be...

    The point is in the use of it. If it is the end-user - no problem. They make the choice, they take the risk of losing vital stuff - and most important of all - if they find it is costing them business or goodwill they will modify/remove it. As long as the blacklist comes with a sensible health warning than it is down to the end user what they get.

    As an ISP I get calls from people who have had legitimate (even vital) email blocked by filters.

    But when that filter has been put in by some obscure system administrator (to the user) - we/he has a problem. In the nature of the business this person may be employed several companies removed from the end-user or me. If you even mention the term spammer you are implicating that a valued client or his systems are nefarious. Explaining what has happened and even suggesting how the end-user can get the problem fixed is effectively a non-starter.

    So I aim my venom at the over zealous sys admin using blacklists on behalf of other people. Perhaps the blacklist organisations are guilty at over promoting their services to this group.

    Frankly my life has been made much more difficult by over zealous anti-spammers (who are very difficult to unhitch) compared to zealous spammers who I can usually take out myself at the server.

    End users can use stuff like MailWasher - which I think is great - EXCEPT - for the default bouncing (and encourageing more bouncing) which to an ISP makes things much more difficult and must increase the global load of e-mail. With false return paths bouncing is pretty useless idea for getting delisted from spammers.

    Hope I haven't started a bounce/don't bounce war....
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  34. #34
    Originally posted by TMX


    OK, so prove it - give us your spews case number, which I've asked you for twice now.

    You keep singing this "poor me" song, yet you have not put forth one shred of evidence to support your claims of wrongdoing by spews. With all due respect, I think the phrase "put up or shut up" is appropriate at this point.

    -Bob
    I have sent you the case numbers by PM. Sorry for being late. I do not want to post them here for being a target to more spammers.
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  35. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    1,095
    Originally posted by TMX
    [B]I see your point. However, I also know that if I had a dime for every referral spam that landed in my various inboxes since the beginning of the year, I would have a very large bank account by now.
    I'm sorry I got hot and I'm glad you see my point. You can't go blaming referral programs, though, because they are very legit and they work nicely (look at Pay Pal). It's up to the company offering the referral program to take action on such users, which I strongly believe our customer (themeetingspot.com) did (otherwise we may not be hosting them right now).

    If, like me, you subscribe to the theory that "referral programs" practically encourage spam, then you will also come to the conclusion that continuing to host such a site can be considered spam support, therefore earning you your rightful spot in spews.
    So what you're saying is that anyone that hosts any site who has referral programs (with links or maybe otherwise) should rightfully be listed in SPEWS because of the "good chances" spam will originate from that site and that the host is a "spam supporter" for allowing the site to continue to operate, even when 1) they are innocent of anything (no spam has happened at all concerning them) or 2) they enforce their AUP/TOS regarding the spamming of referral links? I guess that's what SPEWS means by "early warning", eh? It's ridiculous.

    That said, I also don't see where themeetingspot.com has had any complaints in quite some time. I also don't see it's current IP listed in SPEWS anymore.
    Hey! We're delisted! Finally! Wonder when that happened.

    Is there something else going on here? What's your relationship with the "aussie porn spamhaus" from the old listing? Either I'm missing the boat, or there's more to this than meets the eye..
    No, I don't know how that aussie porn spamhaus thing got into the case, and I don't even know what it is. I saw it plastered all over the case (I trust you read that long, long, long case), but I didn't know why.


    That newsgroup, as with anywhere else, has it's sane, rational people, and then it has it's nutjobs and plain old nasty bastards. It's the latter group, unfortunately, which has given it the reputation it has.
    It seems to me that the nutjobs are the more vocal people in that newsgroup. I don't know, I read through the posts of people needing help, then they get attacked at how either they are spam supporters or their ISP is and that their ISP should burn in hell for supporting the spam (even if they are anti-spam advocates!). They seem to jump the gun based on few, if any, facts. Guilty until proven innocent. It aggravates me, which is why I stay away from the group. I only go to it to see if we're being discussed for some reason, and luckily we've managed to not be mentioned much.

    I do support blacklists such as Spamcop, simply because they have a good system. They have humans behind it that I can talk to. They have good educational tools that really help the user and ISPs understand what's going on and how Spamcop works. They lean more towards the innocent-until-proven-guilty than most others (they give you a chance to explain yourself and fix the problem before you are listed). I have gotten plenty of Spamcop complaints, mostly because of formmail scripts customers use. We get the complaint, find the source of the spam, put a stop to it and deal with the customer according to our policies, respond to Spamcop stating the problem has been dealt with, bam, we're not listed. If it happens again, we get listed (but that's understandable -- we didn't do our job in stopping it in the first place).

    I hate spam just as much as the next guy. However, there's a right way to deal with it, and a wrong way to deal with it. While Spamcop and the others may not be perfect, SPEWS is definitely the wrong way to deal with it. It just hurts too many innocent mail hosts in the process. Yea, I know it's the mail admin who ultimately "chooses" to use the blacklist, but if they aren't educated on SPEWS' methods of listing, they think they have a good blacklist, they use it (and of course don't get any more spam), they are happy, until they don't get that one piece of vital email because a host was unjustly listed. They stop using the list and that's that. Had they been educated on SPEWS' methods of listing earlier, they might not have used the blacklist in the first place and gotten that piece of vital email from the innocent mail host.

    Sorry for the long post. I just keep on typing and typing. I hope it all makes sense. This isn't an attack on you, Bob, in case it comes across that way (hope not). It's a strong stance against SPEWS.
    Alex Llera
    Professional Server Management
    FreeBSD|Linux|HSphere|Cpanel|Plesk
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  36. #36
    Read the SPEWS FAQ. You are making assumptions without knowing what SPEWS really DOES.

    SPEWS blocks rogue webhosts/ISPs that refuse to shut down their documented spammers after many, many warnings. If you are in a SPEWS-blocked range, it is because your ISP completely ignored multitudes of spam complaints, and is knowingly harboring known, documented spam gangs.

    SPEWS is a list of blocked ISPs, *not* blocked users.

    And you wondered why that webhosting account you got was so cheap? you get what you pay for. Go to legitimate host that does not harbor spamming operations.
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  37. #37
    Originally posted by giblet
    Read the SPEWS FAQ. You are making assumptions without knowing what SPEWS really DOES.

    SPEWS blocks rogue webhosts/ISPs that refuse to shut down their documented spammers after many, many warnings. If you are in a SPEWS-blocked range, it is because your ISP completely ignored multitudes of spam complaints, and is knowingly harboring known, documented spam gangs.

    SPEWS is a list of blocked ISPs, *not* blocked users.

    And you wondered why that webhosting account you got was so cheap? you get what you pay for. Go to legitimate host that does not harbor spamming operations.
    Please be real:

    1- I did not get a single complaint about spam nor did my ISP.
    2- I was not warned by SPEWS about being listed, infact they never inform anyone they just add the IPs on the first indication even that we are harbouring spammers.
    3- SPEWS does not only block 'rogue' webhosts/ISPs, infact it blocks anyone who hosts a sites falling in these catagories"Sites Which Send Spam, Sites which support SPAM, Sites which are pro-spam in any way"
    4- In my case no spam was sent through my server, I just hosted a site which was pro-spam. Also remember that I did not invite the spammer to give assylum or harbour him. He found me on his own and dispite my AUP which states that I will terminate spammers account if I find one on my system he still signed up. And I did terminate his account immediately for which he even threatened legal action against me.
    5- SPEWS is not only a list of ISPs but also webhosts. Also if you block an ISP you are blocking their users as well who are the real victims. In case of a webhost(especially namebased hosts) not only the users but also the webhosts suffer a lot.

    If you are so proud that your network is so secure against spammers give me your address and I will prove to you how secure it is. Don't attack cheap hosts just becuase you can't compete with them.
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  38. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    1,095
    Read the SPEWS FAQ. You are making assumptions without knowing what SPEWS really DOES.
    No, I really think you need to go read the FAQ again. SPEWS does not send out notices, they constantly direct you to the newsgroups to take care of your problem with another warm body (or just wait patiently as your IP is delisted while your mail bounces to and fro). I have found absolutely no way to communicate with SPEWS (or communication FROM SPEWS) other than that newsgroup.

    SPEWS blocks rogue webhosts/ISPs that refuse to shut down their documented spammers after many, many warnings. If you are in a SPEWS-blocked range, it is because your ISP completely ignored multitudes of spam complaints, and is knowingly harboring known, documented spam gangs.
    Many, many warnings, eh? Present a single warning to me originating from the SPEWS system. I have never received anything from anyone even remotely related to SPEWS. I found out we were listed earlier this year by accident as I was scanning lists to see if we were listed. Do not try to tell me that we were listed because we (or our provider, which has nothing to do with this) "ignored multitudes of spam complaints." You're blowing hot air. We take spam complaints very seriously (as does our provider). I dare you to present a _single_ case when we were alerted of a spam problem and did nothing about it. Just one, itsy, bitsy, single case where we had just one warning (I'm excusing your "many, many" and "multitudes" part on this one). You won't find it because we take care of every, single, tiny spam warning. We even scan logs to make sure nothing funky is going on from time to time, and we catch people in the act sometimes, even before we get any warnings.

    Yet, we must harbor these spammers because afterall, we were listed in SPEWS!
    Alex Llera
    Professional Server Management
    FreeBSD|Linux|HSphere|Cpanel|Plesk
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  39. #39
    Originally posted by allera


    Many, many warnings, eh? Present a single warning to me originating from the SPEWS system. I have never received anything from anyone even remotely related to SPEWS. I found out we were listed earlier this year by accident as I was scanning lists to see if we were listed. Do not try to tell me that we were listed because we (or our provider, which has nothing to do with this) "ignored multitudes of spam complaints." You're blowing hot air. We take spam complaints very seriously (as does our provider). I dare you to present a _single_ case when we were alerted of a spam problem and did nothing about it. Just one, itsy, bitsy, single case where we had just one warning (I'm excusing your "many, many" and "multitudes" part on this one). You won't find it because we take care of every, single, tiny spam warning. We even scan logs to make sure nothing funky is going on from time to time, and we catch people in the act sometimes, even before we get any warnings.

    Yet, we must harbor these spammers because afterall, we were listed in SPEWS!
    Here is that spam notification you adamantly state that you never got:

    http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...0stephanis.com
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  40. #40
    Originally posted by SurfTurtle


    If you are so proud that your network is so secure against spammers give me your address and I will prove to you how secure it is. Don't attack cheap hosts just becuase you can't compete with them.
    Your sideways threat to attack one of my systems has been noted.
      0 Not allowed!

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