Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    164

    Design, Business and Hosting

    Hey people,

    Just a few words about what has been bugging me. This is not a flame to anyone either by the way.

    I have noticed that everyone and their brother thinks that they can sign up for a reseller package, do a design and be a host.

    There are others here that have spent countless hours in either being a designer or being a host. Very few have been able to do both.

    I love it when we, the community are asked to review a site design or concept that was generated by someone with the lack of knowledge of the basic design packages.

    Not only that but the lack of the basic understanding of design FOR business.

    I have noticed that in some of the designs that there seems to be a lack understanding on how a user uses the sites you are desiging.

    Most newbies design a site to what they like forgetting your potential client. A site has to be designed from THE OUTSIDE IN, not the other way around.

    Al I ask is that if building a site for the first time, take the time to look at what your compeition has done, they did it for a reason. Then sit back and think and think HARD as to what you want to convey and how you are going to do that so the end user gets it.

    This is not ment as a slam on anybody just a few pointers as to what people need to think about when building a business and doing a design in SUPPORTING that business. A design in itself will not make a business.

    Locations for helpfull stuff:

    http://robouk.mchost.com/tuts/ps.php
    http://www.absolutecross.com/
    http://www.spoono.com/ (great tutorials in like 11 different apps)
    http://www.wastedyouth.org/tutorials.php
    http://www.tutorialforums.com
    http://www.deviantart.com
    http://www.toeng.com/main.php
    http://www.planetphotoshop.com
    http://www.phong.com
    http://www.useit.com (usability in design)
    http://www.tutorials911.com/

    These are but a few of the locations to learn to design. Also learn about business. If you dont then the best design in the world isnt going to help you or your business.

    The rest is up to you, but learn what others are doing first, experiment then come to us here with a design that you feel BEST showcases what you have done.

    Also, beinga designer is a state of mind. If you dont think like a designer then maybe you think better as a developer or business owner or something else.

    So, anybody reading this dont take me as sitting on my high horse and preaching to everybody for I am not. I amjust trying to help others along the road, sometimes it a hard one but that comes with the territory.

    Good Luck and if you have any questions please feel free to ask away.

  2. #2

    Thumbs up

    Well said Tranz. I am sure this little bit of advice will help new web designers to build a better mouse trap.

    Regards.
    WHO AM I? CLICK HERE!

  3. #3
    And for the love of God people. Stop using tables for layout : )

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Peoria AZ
    Posts
    52
    Originally posted by Alturus
    And for the love of God people. Stop using tables for layout : )
    May I ask why?

  5. #5
    Mind you this is my own opinion, shared by many others:

    Not the intended use according to w3 spec. Especially when 'updating' to xhtml, and depreciated tags. Code with tables is often very messy and awful to look at. With the CSS2.0 and soon 3.0 specs being more widely supported and used, and developed for; tables are becoming defunct, as much as it is hard/clumsy/annoying to do things via CSS (div, spans) eventually much cleaner/faster pages will result.

    The current HTML specs are designed to seperate content from presentation. The HTML files are supposed to define what type of data they contain (Headings, Paragraphs, Tabular Data), and the actual layout is left to stylesheets. Tables define tabular data.

    However, The HTML 4.01 standard (and as such XHTML 1.0 which is based on it) still considers tables as standard. But things are moving quickly away from this.

    The reason the W3C is pushing the separation between content and structure is because of the different devices that are being used for the web (cell phones, PDAs, etc.)
    Last edited by Alturus; 09-11-2002 at 12:32 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Peoria AZ
    Posts
    52
    that was the best short answer description I've heard yet for that argument. Thanks to you Alturus.
    It is healthy for me to change with the times as a web programmer anyways, so I think I will invest more time to css positioning of elements in the very near future.

  7. #7
    They can be a pain, but I find them more fun to code in.
    Start off slow, change your footer to CSS then gradually move through the rest of your code. Or start from scratch, either way you'll notice code being cleaner, and pages being easier to layout (especially especially when using multiple paged websites) no more going through 600 lines of <td> <tr> and <table> tags to find your error when you have neat, proper, and logical <div></div> and <span></span> tags, which are usually defined in a single .css file, update one file, update every page. Simple

    Quick link to get you started would be: http://glish.com/css/
    http://www.w3schools.com also has a very good reference table for pretty much all the CSS/div/span elements.

    My page: http://www.alturus.ca is totally css/xhtml. (if there's an error let me know : ) ) but if you check out the code it's layed out logically and much cleaner than had I used tables.

    CSS also allows for pinpoint pixel accuracy, not available (cross-browser) with tables.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Peoria AZ
    Posts
    52
    Thanks Alturus- and beautiful site BTW- the CSS looks like such a pain in the arse to code tho since there is no real wysiwyg for it (I am a dreamweaver junky)
    I guarantee that I will be using pure xhtml and CSS for my next web project just to learn it- to think I always just though css was to make your tables and elements look pretty- Boy am I glad I am not one of those dinosaurs who refuses to learn the current technology-

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    167
    Tranz,
    Thanks for the nice links.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    164
    np, if anybody needs anything else, besides $1m and it is a design, usability or design for business question, just ask.

    I am more then willing to help in anyway I can.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    704
    You can't leave out tables when designing complex designs

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Modesto, CA
    Posts
    3,414
    Originally posted by Alturus
    My page: http://www.alturus.ca
    Do you have another example of this concept besides a very simple incomplete site?
    dotGig
    <:<: [Fruit eating linux administrator]

  13. #13
    Originally posted by Samuel


    Do you have another example of this concept besides a very simple incomplete site?
    Read this thread:
    http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...threadid=73387

    As for the "simple/incomplete" remarks. I was discussing layout above, not content. I never suggested my site was complete. I used it as an example to how CSS can be layed out in a clean fashion.

    Please don't troll.


    You can't leave out tables when designing complex designs
    What constitues a 'complex design' to you? My page could easily be considered 'complex' and would be a pain to make with tables.

    Complexity != better page. If you didn't know. I also believe I could reproduce your page with the latest CSS/XHTML spec.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    704
    Originally posted by Alturus
    What constitues a 'complex design' my page could easily be considered 'complex' and would be a pain to make with tables.

    Complexity != better page. If you didn't know.
    Something like http://www.dot5hosting.com or http://www.mehost.com

    It probably can be done but just seems harder to me

  15. #15
    I agree, I decided to stop using tables all-together and use pure CSS and it was the biggest most frustrating pain in the ass.

    Things that seem so obvious with tables are often complex with CSS. However, in the end, I find that using CSS gives me much more control, faster pages, less code, not to mention keeping up and preparing for the (future) times.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    164
    Hey guys not to be rude but the thread has gone slightly off topic to a development discussion. The information is yes VERY useful but could be an entire thread initself.

    Personaly I still use tables. They work for my clients and me. I use DW so it makes it easy if I wanted to generate a CSS for a site.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Modesto, CA
    Posts
    3,414
    Don't troll?

    I asked a question, specifically asking for a better example since you articulated about xhtml/css

    Save your insults... geeze

    I'm not going to look at another thread, post the example here.
    dotGig
    <:<: [Fruit eating linux administrator]

  18. #18
    As Tranz asked, this thread is OT, whereas the one i linked, is all about CSS/XHTML for you to learn : )

    Two good articles though (the site was in CSS):

    http://www.alistapart.com/stories/journey/
    http://www.alistapart.com/stories/tohell/

    Mostly about lousy standards complacency, and why WYSIWIG editors exist. (it's all about hand-coding, if you want to do it right and efficiently, seriously.)

    Since I've come here (been reading for a few months now) I'm very very very suprised at the amount of 'web designers' around that aren't aware of proper CSS/programming practices, general broser compatibility, and programming logic. We have some truely great people with some awsome graphical and layout inspiration (much better than mine) but don't know anything about the latest standards. Which is why so much hesitation is met when w3c suggests CSS/XHTML. Seriously, it doesn't take that long to learn.

    Also barely anyone declares a doctype in thier code. If you don't, your browser enters 'quasi-compatibility mode' and won't render pages the way you want. They may on your box, where you're coding, but declaring a doctype increases exponentially the cross-browser/cross-platform compatibily.

    Maybe i'll start my own rant-thread : )

    Samuel, apoloigies for calling you a troll, but wording your question differently may have helped you not come across as one.
    Last edited by Alturus; 09-11-2002 at 12:28 PM.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Peoria AZ
    Posts
    52
    this is a wonderfule thread and I am going to request to the moderators that it is split into 2 threads.
    I am learning a lot thanks to you Alturus and also all others who like me still rely heavily on tables.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •