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  1. #1
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    solid state hard drives?

    what do you think of solid state hard drives? the next big thing in server hardware? no moving parts meaning more reliable. they obviously may not be as fast as a raid array of 15k scsi hdds but one day im 110% sure they will, we never thought hard drives would be as advanced as they are today.

    Im currently using a solid state drive in my netbook and its great

    Share your thoughts

  2. #2
    You sure about that scsi array? http://it.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.aspx?i=3532&p=10

    You may want to check out the random reads and writes on that page.
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  3. #3
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    The cheaper SSD drives are a no, no still. The controller on them is garbage and the random writes and very very slow. Sequential read/writes are very fast.

    The newer main stream (2nd gen) SSDs (e.g. ocz's apex) are doing much better apparently, but I haven't tried them yet.

    The intel high end ones are great; same for the samsung ones.

    Then there's the whole MLC vs SLC debate, how blocks are cleared, etc. I have found SLC drives to be faster (but pricier).

    So I think we're getting there, but not quite yet.
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  4. #4
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    What about lifespan on SSD longer than HDDs?

  5. #5
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    awesome hard drives but at this time is very expensive
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by racked_solutions View Post
    What about lifespan on SSD longer than HDDs?
    MTBF 2 million hours for the OCZ vertex series.
    a WDC RE3 has 1.2 million hours MTBF.

    but it really depends on what you're doing; the SSD have limited write cycles. So I guess overall they're probably similar now.
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  7. #7
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    Check out this video..

    Raiding 24 Solid state drives together

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96dWO...layer_embedded

  8. #8
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    Thumbs down Solid State Drives

    Just doesn't seem ready for prime time hosting yet. I don't think you can get the performance out of the drives.

    Very much seems to be a "netbook" type of technology. I'm sure they will turn the corner eventually but I don't think we're there yet.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jchawk View Post
    Just doesn't seem ready for prime time hosting yet. I don't think you can get the performance out of the drives.

    Very much seems to be a "netbook" type of technology. I'm sure they will turn the corner eventually but I don't think we're there yet.
    Definitely not, but very interesting none the less..

    I think with the whole "eco" approach companies like Google and Microsoft are taking now, the solid state drives, once they improve on throughput and capacity will be fantastic for efficiency and stability.

  10. #10
    The PCIe SSD's seem very promising. Like any bleeding edge technology, I'm sure they cost a pretty penny.

    http://www.storagesearch.com/ssd-29.html

  11. #11
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    well i check out mdd hosting almost every day and http://forums.mddhosting.com/index.php?showtopic=95


    they use slc. there where alto of good reviews about wht before the hack
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  12. #12
    Western Digital has announced that they're getting into this. The more competition the better the prices are going to get.

    PCIe solutions are great if you need a lot of storage with great speeds. SSDs are useful if you need small space in 2.5".
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  13. #13
    PCIe drives could(will) be huge in the DS business if(when) the prices come down.

  14. #14
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    http://www.storagesearch.com/fusion-io.html

    What about that?
    Now that is amazing...
    i
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    WHT!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by TrentH View Post
    http://www.storagesearch.com/fusion-io.html

    What about that?
    Now that is amazing...
    I know! That's what I've been talking about. Once those get to a price point most people/companies can afford. Game = changed.

  16. #16
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    Nice video. But there must be a diffrence between hosting use and personal use. can there ssd harddrives stay online for a long time ?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoYouSpeakWak?? View Post
    Nice video. But there must be a diffrence between hosting use and personal use. can there ssd harddrives stay online for a long time ?
    Solid state drives have no moving parts, so the only potential issue with keeping them on could possibly be heat. Due to the fact they use less power, I don't think heat is going to be an issue

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by racked_solutions View Post
    what do you think of solid state hard drives? the next big thing in server hardware? no moving parts meaning more reliable. they obviously may not be as fast as a raid array of 15k scsi hdds but one day im 110% sure they will, we never thought hard drives would be as advanced as they are today.

    Im currently using a solid state drive in my netbook and its great

    Share your thoughts
    Yep, I have an HP Mini for presentations. And apart from the speed of the SSHD, it's a great machine. I'm soon going to be ripping out that hard drive and putting in a faster one that, from research, will boost the performance significantly.
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  19. #19
    Oh I think SSD(s) are good

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufe0 View Post
    Oh I think SSD(s) are good
    Yeah me too!

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by shockuk View Post
    Yeah me too!
    No way shockuk! What exactly do you like about them most?

  22. #22
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    Yes way Sherlock!

    Low access time, what else is there to love?

  23. #23
    It is definitely the future. With storage requirements and drives getting bigger the rebuild of raid arrays with large 1TB drives is a nightmare so a SSD of large size would be amazing!

  24. #24
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    regarding data recovery if the hard drive failed, SSD seems to be much more difficult.

  25. #25

    Raid?

    Can you not apply RAID in the same way as a conventional drive?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by meyu View Post
    regarding data recovery if the hard drive failed, SSD seems to be much more difficult.
    Have you tried it? If so, what was much more difficult about it?

    I'd have thought it would be easier because the data can be restored faster; but I've not used an SSD drive, so I am theorising.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim2718281 View Post
    Have you tried it? If so, what was much more difficult about it?

    I'd have thought it would be easier because the data can be restored faster; but I've not used an SSD drive, so I am theorising.
    no, i haven't try it.
    but I was thinking with the mechanical drive, we can always pull the disk out, normally the disk itself wouldn't be totally damaged, then there is a very good chance recovering data in it.
    with the SSD, it's all electrical boards, it seems much more diffucult.
    maybe someone has experience on this can add something.

    Quote Originally Posted by proradio View Post
    Can you not apply RAID in the same way as a conventional drive?
    i'm not discussing how to protect the data, just wondering the difficulty of fixing/recovering data out of broken SSDs.
    Last edited by CNSERVERS; 04-19-2009 at 08:56 PM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by proradio View Post
    Can you not apply RAID in the same way as a conventional drive?
    You should be able to use RAID if your SSD uses either SATA or PATA using current RAID controllers since the interface is the same.
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  29. #29
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    Solid state drives are super expensive right now.

  30. #30
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    Been in place with corporate / enterprise solutions for many years already now:
    http://www.superssd.com/

  31. #31
    for the cloud management servers on vps.net we did RAID-10 with the new SSD2 drives ... I cant begin to tell you ridiculously sweet it is

    they are incredibly fast but above all, reliable, less moving parts to break.
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  32. #32
    Nice thread. I was just thinking about what would be the best way to integrate them into a production server today. Seeing as their capacity is still small and still pricey I think a mixed solution would be ideal.

    I was thinking using them in conjunction with the cheaper spindle drives. Create a smaller array for the higher requirement areas of a server (logs, db files, mail queues, etc) and keep client data on the slower but cheaper spindle drives.

    Combining the two would answer both the cost issues some people are concerned with and still allow a large performance gain by pushing the storage bottleneck up a level. Let's face it, with todays quad core processors the slowest thing on a server is definitley the storage.

    Has anyone tried using them in this kind of configuration yet?

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by joomlaservices View Post
    Nice thread. I was just thinking about what would be the best way to integrate them into a production server today. Seeing as their capacity is still small and still pricey I think a mixed solution would be ideal.

    I was thinking using them in conjunction with the cheaper spindle drives. Create a smaller array for the higher requirement areas of a server (logs, db files, mail queues, etc) and keep client data on the slower but cheaper spindle drives.

    Combining the two would answer both the cost issues some people are concerned with and still allow a large performance gain by pushing the storage bottleneck up a level. Let's face it, with todays quad core processors the slowest thing on a server is definitley the storage.

    Has anyone tried using them in this kind of configuration yet?
    Intresting idea, for sure.

    I agree that a hybird storage server could let you sit on the fence, so to speak when it comes to storage performance vs. cost.
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  34. #34
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    I have had a solid state HD for 1.5 years(whish I waited since they are a ton cheaper, a 128gig I think added about 1k onto my laptop price or so). Honestly not that special, it is on a laptop, not a server or anything so the only nice thing is it does reduce the heat(my laptop overheats like crazy its a xps 1730 very powerfullfull but very hot). The downside is ofcourse I had to get an extra 350gighd on it because the SS was so expensive.

    Overall this wil be a GREAT technology in a few years, now its expensive and not worth it, although it is improving
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  35. #35
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    Do this mean current disk vendors are going broke if they dont change to SSD disks?

    I readed somewhere that it created garbage data as you write, so you start losing the total size over time. Is this true? In this case for datacenters it would be a nightmare now since they are very small, expensive and people DO write allot in servers.

  36. #36
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    Like all hard drives, SSD include have a lifetime cycle. At present they are no better nor worse than spindle disk hard drives due to the way they work. This should be overcome with further development soon though.

    I think what you mean is: Over time as a segment of the hard drive is accessed, yes the size of the hard drive will "shrink" because that segment will become inaccessible.

    I believe all the current manufacturers have either began development of their own SSDs and/or have bought SSD companies. Western Digital was the latest player to buy out another company.

    SSDs aren't going mainstream until the current issues are resolved and manufacturing costs are significantly lower.

  37. #37
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    I am giving strong consideration to the Intel SLC SSDs in my next database server I am planning. The benchmarks are amazing. However, they are about double the price of the SAS drives I would use instead.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katatonic View Post
    Like all hard drives, SSD include have a lifetime cycle. At present they are no better nor worse than spindle disk hard drives due to the way they work. This should be overcome with further development soon though.

    I think what you mean is: Over time as a segment of the hard drive is accessed, yes the size of the hard drive will "shrink" because that segment will become inaccessible.

    I believe all the current manufacturers have either began development of their own SSDs and/or have bought SSD companies. Western Digital was the latest player to buy out another company.

    SSDs aren't going mainstream until the current issues are resolved and manufacturing costs are significantly lower.
    What problems are those?

    So if current manufacturers are developing their own SSD that means they will become mainstream and spinning disk will be something from the past in a few years?

    I thought SSD are more like ram, so companies that currently build disks arent the best ones, but the ones that build flash and ram would be. Its like they have to completely change direction. Maybe the brands that are so great with disks now arent will not be with SSD, it happened before with companies when they had to change their technology

    Is the shrinking size a real problem currently?

    How about RAID performance with SSD disks, if they are so screaming fast i cant imagine how fast it will be with RAID setup.

    I did not understanded to much the PCIe that someone posted before, but I did not looked to much at the link anyway. The current Sata model isnt to fast to work with SSD disks and we people should wait until PCiE for raid disks with SSD?

    About the size, im sure they will get bigger with time, but what worries me is the shrinking.

  39. #39

    Possible config using SSD's on a busy server

    I'm just elaborating on a previous post here: Tell me what you think of the following because I think I am going to try it on my next cPanel server build.

    Lets remember the advantages of SSD drives (these are general conclusions we can draw):
    - as fast if not faster than SAS/SATA. Read the specs again, they are pretty conclusive and have been repeated by many. Remember a really busy web hosting server will perform more random read/writes than sequential read/writes making the SSD drives ideal. If editing large video files then sequential read/write performance becomes a greater priority.
    - no moving parts making them more reliable with a much longer MTBF of even the best spindle drives. (I saw 1.2 million compared to 2 million, almost twice as reliable)
    - very low power consumption reducing server's power signature AND heat generation. Anyone leasing rack space can appreciate this as an extra circuit adds extra operating costs. Where we are at an extra 15 amp circuit costs $200-$300/month.


    Proposed New Server Specs:
    2x Quad core cpu's
    16 gigs ram
    OS drive: Raid 10 array using 64 gig SSD drives for OS (logs, mail queue, db files).
    Data Drive: Raid 5 array using 5 750 gig (with one spare) sataII drives for client data and backups.

    These are the disk IO stats from one of our live cPanel servers with 500+ domains on it. It varies during peak hours but the ratios are pretty much the same at any time. Load peaks at about 3 to 4 and cpu usage never goes beyond 25%, ever! It is a quad core Opteron with 8 gigs and 2 raid 1 arrays (OS and Data partitions).

    OS drive:
    56.19 trans/sec.
    156.65 blocks read/sec.
    1267.15 blocks written/sec.

    Data Drive:
    19.91 trans/sec.
    214.95 blocks read/sec.
    374.53 blocks written/sec.

    The OS drive has almost 3 times as many transactions/sec than the Data drive and most of which are writes because logs, mail queues, sessions, etc. Compare: 156.65 read to 1267.15 write, that's over 8 times as many writes as reads.

    The current bottleneck on this server is the disk IO, specifically the OS drive. If this can be increased with the use of SSD drives then one can theoretically put a lot more clients on the same box and thus increasing the revenues on this server without increasing management/operating costs. So even if the SSD's cost you $1000 more to initially purchase it is well worth the investment if it can increase a servers ROI by increasing the number of accounts by 40+%. If I compare the specs on the server mentioned above and the one I propose I think I could easily put 1000+ domains on it.

    Any thoughts, comments, recommendations are welcome. I gotta say the thought of building this puppy out is really intriguing.

  40. #40
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    "Cramming" more clients onto a single node simply due to upgrade hard drives isn't such a great idea.

    The more data that is written and erased, the shorter the MTBF. This is likely to increase exponentially as your clients grow etc.

    Also, it is an on going cost as you will have to keep replacing the drives, and not a single one off investment.

    They only "shrink" because data has to be written and erased over and over - this has a certain limit. Manufacturers recommend you leave 10% of the hard drive vacant due to this - allowing this vacant space to become the "garbage" without affecting performance and stability, but it will soon catch up. This is managed by the controller on the hard drive, this is where a lot of companies are having issues as they all resell each other.

    Flash memory doesn't have this issue since data isn't written and "stored" in the same way - it is volatile.

    You can't compare the MTBF rate from spindle disks to SSDs either - and can't be compared directly in that regard.

    I'm not sure how I can explain this any better. I haven't personally tested them yet as there isn't any point other than to simply evaluate their performance and I wouldn't use them in a production environment yet.

    I'd have to get two of them and do some reviews with RAID comparisons to explain better etc but I'm sure there are plenty of sites out there (Anandtech, TrustedReviews, XBitLabs) that have done this already.

    joomla: I would refrain from doing a build immediately, although if you have the capital to burn why not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96dWOEa4Djs

    The current tech will be superceded very quickly and there is great R&D going in at the moment from all manufacturers which makes things interesting if you look up the patents a lot of them are putting forward.

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