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Thread: DMCA Issue

  1. #1
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    DMCA Issue

    I contacted HostGator a few days ago in regards to a website being hosted on their network. The blog post had a link to a decompiler that would decompile applications written by a certain program. The responses I received from Richard F. (Network Security Administrator) of HostGator was not what I expected.

    At first, Richard F. wants to see the EULA of the software that the decompiler is made for. So, I send him the URL and even quote the EULA. It states, "Neither you nor any third party may modify, adapt, decompile or reverse engineer the Games." In addition, I pointed Richard to the author's blog where the author is not happy about the decompiler as people can use it to steal and ripoff games and applications written with this software. Richard F. then defends the decompiler by stating the following:

    "Well, this is a complicated situation. Having the decompiler available is in itself not any violation of the EULA. However, if someone uses it then it's a violation of that EULA. Making the decompiler available solely as a source of information is not in any way infractionary, this has been held up in court cases with companies such as Microsoft."

    It seems he is trying to use some alleged loophole of having it available for "information purposes only" does not make it illegal or a violation of HostGators TOS/AUP. I then notify him that it is also a DMCA violation as the only reason for reverse engineering per the DMCA is if the software is no longer available nor the author available. Neither of these conditions are met as the software that is decompiled is still being made and the community that uses the software is active. Richard F. then makes the following illogical analogy:

    "Yes it could be seen as a violation of the DMCA. However, again, as an informational source, it is not in any violation. If we wanted to go on a tangent and say that this tool was written in, say C#, we could then hold Microsoft liable for creating both the C# language and an IDE to allow someone to write this tool. But they're not liable for what is created with or done with their tools, they merely provide them. This is where we are in this situation. Simply providing the information is not illegal."

    Firstly, no one ever went on any tangent. Next, his analogy makes no sense. The fact of the matter is that the website being hosted on HostGator's network is distributing a decompiler that circumvents security measures in a program. People that use this particular software to compile their games and applications can have their source code revealed by a person simply running this decompiler.

    I guess Richard F. is not used to dealing with techniaclly adept people. Therefore, he pulls a bunch of technical BS out of his gator butt and expects me to believe it.

    I have forwarded this issue to The Planet as well as to the author that made the software being decompiled. I have notified him of HostGator condoning the use and distribution of this decompiler. I think it's pretty sad when a hosting company starts to defend immoral and unethical activities. And to think, this joker is actually has the position of "Network Security Administrator." He sounds like some kid barely out of high school computer science class.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamparoux View Post
    I have forwarded this issue to The Planet as well as to the author that made the software being decompiled.
    Man, you're tough... Have you also thought about forwarding this issue to the HS, FBI, CIA, UN, UNICEF, OSCE, NATO etc?
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by sash View Post
    Man, you're tough... Have you also thought about forwarding this issue to the HS, FBI, CIA, UN, UNICEF, OSCE, NATO etc?
    Sarcasm noted. In all, though, a hosting company like HostGator has a TOS/AUP. They are notified of a violation of their policy and the one investigating the issue defends the immoral activities as well as comes up with perposterous analogies.

    I'm not being tough, I'm being fair and concise.
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  4. #4
    Send a DMCA to the website's domain registrar as well. That work for most of the time.
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  5. #5
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    I don't see how his second response was in illogical reply. He is simply stating that they cannot terminate the account because it provides a tool or information that could be used maliciously.

    -fin
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  6. #6
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    His second response was about if the tool was written in C# and one wanted to go on a tangent, then they could go as far as blaming Microsoft since Microsoft created the C# language. That is an analogy that makes no sense.

    Btw, thanks for the idea on contacting this person's registrar. I will be contacting 1and1 to see what their response is.
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  7. #7
    What is the software? Sound like GM7 to me... Would be interesting to know.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamparoux View Post
    I'm being fair and concise.
    As far as I understand the issue, you're not fighting against any pirate or criminal etc., but you're just trying to harm a blogger and a honest host. Snitching is a dubious behaviour.

    Cheers!
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamparoux View Post
    I contacted HostGator a few days ago in regards to a website being hosted on their network. The blog post had a link to a decompiler that would decompile applications written by a certain program. The responses I received from Richard F. (Network Security Administrator) of HostGator was not what I expected.

    At first, Richard F. wants to see the EULA of the software that the decompiler is made for. So, I send him the URL and even quote the EULA. It states, "Neither you nor any third party may modify, adapt, decompile or reverse engineer the Games." In addition, I pointed Richard to the author's blog where the author is not happy about the decompiler as people can use it to steal and ripoff games and applications written with this software. Richard F. then defends the decompiler by stating the following:

    "Well, this is a complicated situation. Having the decompiler available is in itself not any violation of the EULA. However, if someone uses it then it's a violation of that EULA. Making the decompiler available solely as a source of information is not in any way infractionary, this has been held up in court cases with companies such as Microsoft."

    It seems he is trying to use some alleged loophole of having it available for "information purposes only" does not make it illegal or a violation of HostGators TOS/AUP. I then notify him that it is also a DMCA violation as the only reason for reverse engineering per the DMCA is if the software is no longer available nor the author available. Neither of these conditions are met as the software that is decompiled is still being made and the community that uses the software is active. Richard F. then makes the following illogical analogy:

    "Yes it could be seen as a violation of the DMCA. However, again, as an informational source, it is not in any violation. If we wanted to go on a tangent and say that this tool was written in, say C#, we could then hold Microsoft liable for creating both the C# language and an IDE to allow someone to write this tool. But they're not liable for what is created with or done with their tools, they merely provide them. This is where we are in this situation. Simply providing the information is not illegal."

    Firstly, no one ever went on any tangent. Next, his analogy makes no sense. The fact of the matter is that the website being hosted on HostGator's network is distributing a decompiler that circumvents security measures in a program. People that use this particular software to compile their games and applications can have their source code revealed by a person simply running this decompiler.

    I guess Richard F. is not used to dealing with techniaclly adept people. Therefore, he pulls a bunch of technical BS out of his gator butt and expects me to believe it.

    I have forwarded this issue to The Planet as well as to the author that made the software being decompiled. I have notified him of HostGator condoning the use and distribution of this decompiler. I think it's pretty sad when a hosting company starts to defend immoral and unethical activities. And to think, this joker is actually has the position of "Network Security Administrator." He sounds like some kid barely out of high school computer science class.
    This issue isn't nearly as black & white as you make it appear.

    This is very similar to an issue that came up for us awhile back.

    We had a user who was hosting information about video game console emulation. The DMCA submitter contacted our DC as well as Nintendo Co. The end result was that building, hosting, and distributing the emulator in question was not in itself a violation of trademark laws. Only the actual use of the software would violate said trademarks. Since the site in question was not directly making use of the software no violations occurred.

    Basically, if the site your referring to isn't in direct violation of a valid, registered, EULA there is no violation. If the site is providing a form, with which a visitor can upload coded source and in return download a decompiled version, a violation is occurring. Otherwise, it's not a violation.
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  10. #10
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    I believe his last analogy was actually correct. MicroSoft provide a tool to produce software. Even if that software is a highly malicious virus, it is up to the person with the tools what they do with them.

    The same could be said for this decompiler. Do you know the decompiler is specifically designed to decompile the game in full or part? Or is it a generalised decompiler which works with several programs, including the game? If it is the latter case, then HostGator would not be obliged to remove the site or suspend the user.

    Good luck with it though, going to an upstream provider does tend to yield more results than going directly if going directly doesn't work.

    Mike
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  11. #11
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    "I have forwarded this issue to The Planet as well as to the author that made the software being decompiled."
    You're quite within your rights to inform the violated software vendor.

    Hostgator don't have to take any action on your request because you are nothing to them and more importantly, you're not the legit software company who's product is being violated, therefore, contacting Hostgator should really have nothing to do with you.

    As stated above youre basically an informant... a snitch...call it whatever...either way your words will most likely fall on deaf ears regarding Hostgator...because you are not the one being violated.

    After the software vendor/owner files a dispute, then action will be taken.....it's called actioning the correct procedure.

    And to say HG supports DMCA violations...that's total crap and you should be flogged for making silly accusations.

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    Last edited by Outlaw Web Master; 09-17-2008 at 03:23 PM.
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  12. #12
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    You could actually be sued as well, a DMCA is a legal document and you could be committing a criminal offence.

    Only the copyright owner or an authorised agent of said owner can send one.

    From sample DMCA complaint form:
    Copyright Owners Statement
    I have a good faith belief that use of the copyrighted materials described above on the allegedly infringing web pages is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law.
    I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.
    You are welcome to contact the copyright owner about it, but you should NOT be filing DMCA about it.
    Last edited by doc_flabby; 09-17-2008 at 04:06 PM.
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  13. #13
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    From DMCA:

    (f) Reverse Engineering. -

    * (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.
    * (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.

    * (3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.

    * (4) For purposes of this subsection, the term ''interoperability'' means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.
    This area of the law is not exactly the most straightforward one. The software we're talking about may or may not have been developed in a law or contractual abiding way (exceptions may very well be granted), and it may or may not be used in a legal fashion. The host can't know this.

    Second, we're talking about a link to a software, if I get this right. This area of the law is not exactly crystal clear either.

    Say I recommend Company A'a software and link to it, and later on Company B sues Coompany A for infringing their copyright in some way. Company B wins. Am I, a third party, guilty for helping distribute Company A's product, and possibly continuing to link to it, unaware of the legal battle between the two? There are situations that have not reached a court of law yet.

    As doc_flabby and Outlaw Web Master said, this would be an issue to be handled by the involved parties or the authorities. You can inform them all of the situation, but that's about it.

    Personal opinions only, I'm not a lawyer.
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  14. #14
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    As a software designer (yes, I do that also) I may hate a decompiler as much as the next software designer. The fact is that just about anything you write no matter what language can (and will, if it's good software) be decompiled by somebody somewhere using a tool that was pre-existing or that was written for that sole purpose alone.

    Realistically writing the decompiler and distributing it is not a violation of any law that I am aware of, but using it most likely would be.

    As a programmer if my software was being decompiled and stolen then I would very much appreciate being informed of this but I would not want you filling a DMCA or any other legal notice on my behalf without my prior written approval. It's my software and my battle (and realistically you've got nothing to do with it).

    Just my two cents, and as ldcdc said I'm not a lawyer either.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkill View Post

    The same could be said for this decompiler. Do you know the decompiler is specifically designed to decompile the game in full or part? Or is it a generalised decompiler which works with several programs, including the game? If it is the latter case, then HostGator would not be obliged to remove the site or suspend the user.
    That is exactly what I thought. Unless the decomplier is made specifically for the game mentioned, there is no way hostgator or anybody can be responsible for decompilation. For me clearly hostgator is spot on with their asessment.
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  16. #16
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    swamparoux, if you want to get everyone behind you and fired up, pick an issue which is actually illegal or misleading. Some guy hosting a decompiler is not illegal, and the fact that some other software author is up in arms about it on his blog is unfortunate, but irrelevant. Decompilers have been around a long time, I don't forsee your advocacy group being sucessful here.

    Why not take a look at the fact that hostgator offers XYZ features but there is no realistic way to use them. It is like a pharmacy selling 60 pills in a bottle. When you open up the bottle at home, there is a note- take one pill daily and all pills expire 30 days after opening. There are many hostgator haters and exposers on this forum, so you can be the general on this issue.
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  17. #17
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    Hi Nicholas (?)

    I feel sorry for you. I do know where you are coming from. Big companies, out for the dollar. Bugger the consumer.

    However, you seem to be on a bit of a mission here. Your website, is so so angry. Perhaps blinded with real anger and hatred. Just looking at your website makes me wonder...do you go out? While presented in the cliché manner, I pose that as a real question.

    Something bad happened to you in the past where I quess you were screwed over. You couldn't fight back because they were too big and they used all the dirty tricks in the book. And since then you are pretty paranoid of any other companies that appear sizeable. I can feel for you on that. I've been there.

    But life is about living in the present. Not in the past, or hypothesizing how you are going to get screwed over in the future based on past experiences.

    Venting anger appears to be a drug. You overdose on it, like when you finished this little thread. It felt good didn't it? Just for a split second.

    Richard F, the latest victim.,, Reading it appears he's just doing his job. Really, why on earth are you spending so much vitroil and anger into this personal project?

    I understand where you are coming from. There's so many people that you just cannot trust, and generally I am a very cynical person. But Richard isn't one of them. He's just following procedures. Procedures he's paid to do to keep his job to take a pay packet home and keep a roof over his head and perhaps (kid's head), just like the rest of us.

    Not everyone is bad, and really...IMO you need to either go see someone or work out those anger issues.

    Why not channel that energy into actually making yourself some money / doing something, rather than what seems to be, destorying people you distrust.

    Just my personal opinions as someone that cares. PM / email me if I can help.

    And apologies to those hoping for a technical response.
    Last edited by [inx]Olly; 09-17-2008 at 10:51 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Whistleblower, snitch, stooley - they're all close enough. The point is, if you're not defending your own product (or hired to defend someone else) then frankly, its none of your business.
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  19. #19
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    Knock t off with the name calling guys

    If you think the OP is wrong then explain that to him but leave the name calling out, there is no need for it
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by River Marz Media View Post
    What is the software? Sound like GM7 to me... Would be interesting to know.
    Yes, it is the GM system.

    Quote Originally Posted by sash View Post
    As far as I understand the issue, you're not fighting against any pirate or criminal etc., but you're just trying to harm a blogger and a honest host. Snitching is a dubious behavior.

    Cheers!
    An honest blogger? I beg to differ. An "honest" blogger provides a tool to circumvent compiling which allows a person to steal a game and so forth. Wow! I guess my 2006 copy of Webster's dictionary needs updating. It seems that since 2006 and 2008 the definition of "honest" has changed a bit. I must find the humor in your comment. People that are honest are called "snitches" and other derogatory names.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkill View Post
    Do you know the decompiler is specifically designed to decompile the game in full or part? Or is it a generalised decompiler which works with several programs, including the game? If it is the latter case, then HostGator would not be obliged to remove the site or suspend the user.
    Yes. This is not a generic decompiler. The decompiler was designed specifically to decompile games/applications created and compiled with the GameMaker system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw Web Master View Post
    Hostgator don't have to take any action on your request because you are nothing to them and more importantly, you're not the legit software company who's product is being violated, therefore, contacting Hostgator should really have nothing to do with you.

    As stated above youre basically an informant... a snitch...call it whatever...either way your words will most likely fall on deaf ears regarding Hostgator...because you are not the one being violated.

    After the software vendor/owner files a dispute, then action will be taken.....it's called actioning the correct procedure.

    And to say HG supports DMCA violations...that's total crap and you should be flogged for making silly accusations.
    1.) I would hope that HostGator takes report violations seriosly from even us peons. Whether you be part of a large conglomorate or some Joe living on food stamps, a violation is a violation. If HostGator wants to take the metality of "If they can't afford to sue us, then why worry about them", then that says something about their ethics.

    2.) Yes, I am being violated. I, and many others, have chosen to use the Game Maker system. Any games and applications created can easily be decompiled. So if someone wants to get paid for their work, they may be out of luck. This decompiler does not require hacker skills. Siimply select the file you want to decompile and then decompile it. It even automatically detects the version of GM used to compile the EXE. So yes, I and every other person using the system has the direct right to have a say in this issue.

    3.) Actioning the correct procesure? So in other words, despite the fact someone is violating HostGator's TOS/AUP, HostGator doesn't have to do anything until some bigtime lawyer comes around?

    4.) Flogged? Just because I turn some unethical person in, I'm the bad guy. I do have to laugh at people like you. Those that get annoyed when an unethical person it turned in. I rank those types right up there with crimiinals that get pissed because the cops arrested them. It's simple, be honest and you will not have to worry.

    doc_flabby, If they want to sue me, then they may go on right ahead. I doubt the blogger will sue. And if ThePlanet or HostGator would want to sue, then that would really just back up my claim of them supporting DMCA violations. In addition, I believe it would be a criminal offense if I filed a DMCA and claimed I was the author. I never done such. I clearly stated that I was not the author, however, that the author was not happy about it. And I was not lying. The author of the Game Maker system posted twice on his blog about how he felt about the decompiler that was floating around on the Internet. I even game them a link to his blog posts.

    In no way, shape, or form, did I make myself out to be someone I'm not. Furthermore, I don't believe that only the author can notify a hosting provider of a DMCA violation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ldcdc View Post
    Second, we're talking about a link to a software, if I get this right. This area of the law is not exactly crystal clear either..
    No, the actual decompiler file is hosted on the blog website. The blogger did not just link to a third-party website. The file is actually hosted on the blogger's domain and hosted on HostGator's network.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDVB View Post
    As a programmer if my software was being decompiled and stolen then I would very much appreciate being informed of this but I would not want you filling a DMCA or any other legal notice on my behalf without my prior written approval. It's my software and my battle (and realistically you've got nothing to do with it).
    It seems that quite a few are saying it's none of my business without understanding the underlying reason I done this. If it was something such as you wrote a cool game, and there was a crack or keygen out there I saw, I would not be causing all this fuss. After all it's your game that you wrote and up to you to deal with it.

    However, this is not the case here. The Game Maker software is a program that allows people to make their own games and applications using it and then compile them with it. Therefore, as a person using the Game Maker system to develop a game, I and every single person that utilizes the Game Maker system has the direct right to report this matter. After all, our creations are at a risk of being easily decompiled.


    [inx]Olly, or shall I call you Dr. Phil? My website is not full of anger. You seem to protray me as some person with a vindetta. I post what I do to warn other people about the unethical actions of companies. I don't post every single quarral I have. I post on companies that are unethical and show no signs of changing. And to answer your Dr. Phil question of whether I feel good after posting stuff about a victim, the answer is no. I don't write to vent, I don't write for some psychological pleasure, and I don't write for vendettas. It seems to me that you forgot about this wonderful thing called Freedom of Speach.

    People have the right to post how they feel. If companies have to right to scam and ripoff people, then why is warning people about these companies considered hostile or angry?

    Real mature taylorwilsdon. I have already responded earlier in this post on why I did what I done despite some feeling that it was none of my business to do what I done.

    I did get a response from ThePlanet's abuse department. They stated I needed to contact their legal department. So, I simply copy and pasted what I sent to the abuse department. There was no sense in my typing everything out again.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamparoux View Post
    And to think, this joker is actually has the position of "Network Security Administrator." He sounds like some kid barely out of high school computer science class.
    If (and that's a big if), that is true, you have now lowered yourself to his supposed level by your public childish name-calling.
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  22. #22
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    I apoligize for exercising my freedom of speach and express my opinions. Forgive me. I will now crawl under a rock and move to a communist country where I am not permitted to express myself.

    Come on! Because I used the term "joker"? Now if I said something like, "This ignorant and incompotent idiot.. " then I could see a valid argument for name calling.
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  23. #23
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    HostGator is not acting on your DMCA notice because you have no legal standing to demand that they do anything. Simple as that, move on, have a great day, adios!

    -fin
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  24. #24
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    I hate to say this, but your software is not being illegally distributed so, guess what, you can't send a DMCA request for the removal of the page. Sad, but true.

    I don't its that host gator thinks you're nothing, its you just don't have any legal right to stop the distribution of *someone else's* software.

    Lets just put it this way, you're essentially asking for the sale of TNT to be stopped, because someone *may* blow up your house, when really, the likelihood of that is really low.

    One thing I noticed among the name calling, is no one mentioned the user involved may not be in the United States, where the DMCA is law. HostGator may be protecting the rights of an individual who doesn't have to follow the laws of the US.


    Tough luck. Look into the law maybe I'm wrong.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thales View Post
    HostGator is not acting on your DMCA notice because you have no legal standing to demand that they do anything. Simple as that, move on, have a great day, adios!

    -fin
    Thales
    If a hosting company will only act if someone has the ability to sue, then that shows a lack of morals and ethics on the part of the hosting provider.

    GregVernon, I know my software is not being illegally distributed, as I have responded to in a previous post. My issue is that any software that I write can easily be illegal distributed, though. The blog poster on HostGator's network is providing a direct means to illegal distribution.
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