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  1. #1
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    Blown away by how manual so many VPS providers are.

    Earlier today I signed up for accounts at 20 different VPS providers for a route monitoring & data collection tool I wrote. 8 hours later, the only VPS's that are setup are from Linode and VPSLink. Some of the others wanted to call me up and verify and either never did, or did and haven't yet setup my account. One or two are still in pending state.

    What's with the disparity? Are so many VPS providers really just doing everything by hand?

    Perhaps we could get a list of the providers run professionally, versus the mom & pop ones who haven't managed to automate these braindead simple processes?

    I've got to say, I don't see the VPS market competing against the grid. The other day I interviewed the owner of NewServers.com while at Structure in SF. It took me just under 10 minutes to get a working server, which included the 5 minute email delay because I greylist.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by mhalligan View Post

    What's with the disparity? Are so many VPS providers really just doing everything by hand?

    Perhaps we could get a list of the providers run professionally, versus the mom & pop ones who haven't managed to automate these braindead simple processes?

    .
    would be great idea, rather than going in blind. i've had a few similar experiences.

  3. #3
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    I hope you plan on writing a report at the end of all this and share your experiences. My experience with VPSLink's setup has been great as well, taking only 10 minutes for the VPS to be setup. Other's I've signed up with have all finished setup within 6 hours.

    It would be interesting to hear VPS providers take on this as well. Is fraud a large issue in this sector? I've been hearing a lot lately about fraud checks and what not.

  4. #4
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    This is turning out to be somewhat of a comical farce. I've had 2 VPS providers say they take AMEX only to find out 4 hours later, after their ridiculous call-back, that they don't actually take AMEX .. almost 5 hours after paying for one VPS I'm still waiting for them to turn up my VPS. Another 7 VPS companies still haven't given me callbacks.

    It's like I'm on the street corner, covered in money, shouting "I WANT TO GIVE YOU MY BUSINESS" and all the vendors are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they just walk on by.

  5. #5
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    Yes, Indeed a report with every VPS company and setup would be a very interesting read.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhalligan View Post
    Earlier today I signed up for accounts at 20 different VPS providers for a route monitoring & data collection tool I wrote. 8 hours later, the only VPS's that are setup are from Linode and VPSLink. Some of the others wanted to call me up and verify and either never did, or did and haven't yet setup my account. One or two are still in pending state.

    What's with the disparity? Are so many VPS providers really just doing everything by hand?
    Would you mind sharing which VPS providers you signed up with? Would be interesting to see whose giving you trouble.

  7. #7
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    Guess you've never heard of anti-fraud reviews and business hours, Michael? Not trying to be mean, but, you do need to be realistic with some of the providers.

    Unless you're dealing with a VPS provider that has literally tens of thousands of accounts, order reviews are usually done by one to two people, and those people generally can't work 24x7x365.

    Just something to keep in mind. And yes, I also hope you post a review of your progress as things move forward. It's a rarity when someone goes on a mega shopping spree like that, haha!
    Douglas Hazard - Certifiable Sports Junkie and Sports Community Enthusiast

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  8. #8
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    After spending some time in the VPS biz, I have to say that fraud is a HUGE HUGE HUGE problem. I've been doing this for 11 years now and have worked just about every aspect of the hosting industry and VPS orders *BY FAR* have the highest rate of fraud. There's no way I would ever automate account setups for VPS accounts...no way.

    Keep in mind that its generally the billing/accounts department that has to verify orders and, unlike support departments, it doesn't make much sense to hire 24/7 billing/accounts staff. So, if your order comes in near the end of the day - you realistically may have to wait until the next day for your account information.

    Frankly, the fact that 20-some VPS providers all gave you much the same setup experience speaks volumes. It tells me that things have not taken a turn for the better in terms of how careful VPS providers have to be because of the large number of incoming fraud orders.

    How bad was it for us? Bad enough for me to want to stick to hosting and the dedicated server market.

    --Tina
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  9. #9
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    Agree with companies taking their time on orders. Unless they specified orders taken care of in xx hours , I think its alright to wait upto 24 hours or even sometimes 32 hours (longer than that is certainly odd).

    Fraud is a major issue and as mentioned above, lots of people are hell meant on making merry of it....

    There is no processor that promises a 100% chargeback solution, and since the vps are costlier than shared & reseller hosting theyre are ALOT of companies that do manual verification and even have you sign .pdfs or fax out signed documents before setting them up.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhalligan View Post
    Earlier today I signed up for accounts ... 8 hours later, the only VPS's that are setup are from Linode and VPSLink.
    I'm guessing you didn't sign up with any HSPComplete/Virtuozzo providers like Tektonic or FutureHosting? They should be able to provide on-demand provisioning as well.

    I've rented a few VPSes over the years, and the VPSLink level of automation is unusual from my experience. What makes it impressive to me is that it is all custom coded and highly functional.
    Eric Spaeth
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  11. #11
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    Fraudulent orders is a big problem in the VPS market. Phone verification is a must for overseas orders and if an order looks at all suspect we don't give them the benefit of the doubt.

    We are semi-automated working on a "order before 3pm (UK time) and set up the same business day" basis, which seems to work for most people.
    Andrew Ogilvie | Xtraordinary Hosting | AS30827 | Member of LINX
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  12. #12
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    Wow. Brain-dead simple processes caught me.

    I don't automate anything, by choice. I have Ubersmith, I have WHM, I can tie them together just fine (it is, after all, a brain dead simple process, don't ya know). And I do mostly shared hosting - and I still do it all by hand (installing, opening new accounts, ect.) I still

    1) Get the order
    2) Eyeball it, make sure they can, you know, spell their city.
    3) trace the IP, match it to the address.
    4) Google the email address, google the site, visit the site...

    and on and on. I have been told by some of the colleagues I regularly IM that I am an old fashioned relic from another time. I've been made fun of by some of the sys admins at my data center (good natured-ly, of course). I've been offered coding by friends just to get me to stop. It drives them crazy.

    But you know what? For the 5 minutes it takes me to manually look over every single order and provision it and install it, that's less of a risk that I will spend three hours stopping a staunch of garbage flowing through my server or from my server. My sys admins at the NOC may make fun of me, but they never see a ticket from me asking how to stop a spammer spamming through my box, and I never hear from them that I need to shut so and so down because they're doing such and such.

    After ten years, I can usually spot them in an instant or two. I doubt any algorithm has as good a track record as I do.

    And, frankly, there's the added bonus that the client coming on passes through my hands. It may seem silly and ridiculous, but I don't want someone popping up on my boxes one day and have me wonder when the heck they got here.

    I'm large enough that it is, admittedly, a bit of a pain. I'm small enough that it's something I plan on continuing to do, and not because I can't implement a brain dead process - it's because I, personally, don't want to make that process brain dead, anonymous, and automatic - the same as if I owned a brick and mortar, I would want to glance up at the door when someone walks in and say hello.

    In case you didn't catch on, I took umbrage at your claiming I am not professional.
    Jen Lepp
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  13. #13
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    I'm really glad my VPS provider phoned me from the other side of the world and thoroughly reviewed my order instead of mailing me a log-in as soon as the funds hit his account.

    The quality of the server is top notch, and i would hate to think he was letting people on instantly and risk degrading the service.

    This is coming from someone who is not a host, and who wanted a VPS fairly quickly.
    Great Host = WiredTree.com Managed VPS Hosting

  14. #14
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    As another VPS provider I have to agree with everyone else here. The Fraud rate on VPS compared to any other service is extremely high.

    Even though we have the capability for automated setups, several orders would still get through our fraud detection systems just to open chargebacks against us later on. It really isn't worth the risk.

  15. #15
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    I would not say offering automatic activation without fraud/abuse problems is impossible nor very difficult. If you study the top ten uses frauders find a server useful for, build network, application, and filesystem level monitoring applications for these cases, you can eliminate 99% of fraud. Further, once fraud/phishing/spam gangs realize your system is quite bulletproof, they will not waste their time defrauding you. Combined with a fraud profiler like maxmind, you an achieve a very stringent anti fraud system, which would make you feel like a peon manually activating accounts all day long.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRick View Post
    I would not say offering automatic activation without fraud/abuse problems is impossible nor very difficult. If you study the top ten uses frauders find a server useful for, build network, application, and filesystem level monitoring applications for these cases, you can eliminate 99% of fraud. Further, once fraud/phishing/spam gangs realize your system is quite bulletproof, they will not waste their time defrauding you. Combined with a fraud profiler like maxmind, you an achieve a very stringent anti fraud system, which would make you feel like a peon manually activating accounts all day long.
    I've seen maxmind toss out perfectly good orders.

    --Tina
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  17. #17
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    I've seen maxmind toss out perfectly good orders.
    You should not be expecting any fuzzy, automated system like this to provide black and white data. Think of maxmind like spamassassin. Regardless, I never said that that automation was reliant on maxmind. It should be one factor in determining how likely the account is fraudulent. If you use more detailed automated investigation and monitored as I mentioned, you will have a more accurate determination.
    Last edited by RapidRick; 07-02-2008 at 07:55 AM. Reason: removed sarcastic remark

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRick View Post
    You should not be expecting any fuzzy, automated system like this to provide black and white data. Think of maxmind like spamassassin. Regardless, I never said that that automation was reliant on maxmind. It should be one factor in determining how likely the account is fraudulent. If you use more detailed automated investigation and monitored as I mentioned, you will have a more accurate determination.
    That's exactly my point. There is no automated system that will work better than an experienced human eye looking over new orders.

    --Tina
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  19. #19
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    Or put some effort into hardening and monitoring the network, filesystem, and application layers. But, for those of you using and reliant on prebuilt, canned scripts such as whmcs, hypervm, and others- I understand your reasoning. Leave the automated systems to the more experienced and well equipped companies such as amazon, google, linode, vpslink.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhalligan View Post
    What's with the disparity? Are so many VPS providers really just doing everything by hand?

    I've got to say, I don't see the VPS market competing against the grid. The other day I interviewed the owner of NewServers.com while at Structure in SF. It took me just under 10 minutes to get a working server, which included the 5 minute email delay because I greylist.
    Hey Micheal,

    For the most poart, VPS = grid = cloud, if you have APIs to automate creation. There is a big blur in what is considered a grid/cloud and is a different thread.

    Keep in mind these factors, some which have already been mentioned:
    - Fraud rate is very high for these types of setup.
    - Depends upon what you want configured with your instance, if you want a control panel sometimes there is a delay to get that license.
    - Are they managed or just unmanaged base images? If they are managed, at least with Xen setups , they are much more complex.

    In our case our managed setup is 95% automated, the biggest delay is the fraud check which is the longest. We give an advance warning the intial VPS can take 24 hours to create.

    Once a valid customer new instances are created very quickly (under 1/2 hour and our goal is to have under 10min with a full managed configuration, with files configured and customer software configured)
    Larry Ludwig
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRick View Post
    Or put some effort into hardening and monitoring the network, filesystem, and application layers. But, for those of you using and reliant on prebuilt, canned scripts such as whmcs, hypervm, and others- I understand your reasoning. Leave the automated systems to the more experienced and well equipped companies such as amazon, google, linode, vpslink.
    vpslink works on top of HyperVM as well. They created a custom interface, and just "plugged" it in t HyperVM.

  22. #22
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    I'm standing on the edge of a sea of infinite fear and excuses. I have nothing else to say about the VPS industry. This thread might as well be closed.

  23. #23
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    I'm not surprised at how many do not fully automate, but I AM surprised at how many are easily capable of doing instant setup and choose not to.

    My fraud experience is good. I'm not sure what we are doing differently, but we receive very few chargebacks and very few false positives on a healthy amount of orders per day...
    Matt Ayres - togglebox.com
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  24. #24
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    I'm just glad to be out of the VPS market altogether. I didn't care for it at all.

    I have nothing but love for hosting and servers though.

    --Tina
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWiseOne View Post
    I'm not surprised at how many do not fully automate, but I AM surprised at how many are easily capable of doing instant setup and choose not to.

    My fraud experience is good. I'm not sure what we are doing differently, but we receive very few chargebacks and very few false positives on a healthy amount of orders per day...
    I automated for a while to try it out - I just didn't like it at all, and the percentage of people that got on that shouldn't have just wasn't to my satisfaction. No algorithms that I tried worked as well as I did with an eyeball and elbow grease. I honestly feel like some things just can't be replaced by a machine, and human judgment is one of them.

    I think there's room for all types - everyone's business is a little different and how they choose to run it is a little different. It annoys me that people assume doesn't = can't, or that I'm somehow "lowering" myself because I choose to do it this way (the peon crack was just uncalled for because, frankly, I have peons and I don't let them put people on my servers, either).

    Obviously, if I didn't see a benefit in it, I wouldn't do it.
    Jen Lepp
    “Customer service represents the heart of a brand in the hearts of its customers.” – Kate Nasser

  26. #26
    I know of no better way to trash a network, and destroy the reputation of a block of IP's than automated signups and instant activation. A report would be an interesting read though.

  27. #27
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    I love the customers that require instant gratification, they normally have this sense of entitlement. You want your stuff (in this case a VPS account) instantly, fine that's your choice. The reality is that there is a good deal of fraud in this industry and most providers take measures to address them. It's not only a protection for them but their customers. Those fake accounts typically are ones that will abuse resources and cause everyone else to be impacted.

    Really easy to label legitimate concerns and policies as "excuses" without addressing the voiced concerns.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina View Post
    I've been doing this for 11 years now and have worked just about every aspect of the hosting industry and VPS orders *BY FAR* have the highest rate of fraud. There's no way I would ever automate account setups for VPS accounts...no way.
    Hi,

    I'm just curious on your take of why VPS accounts have the highest rate of fraud. Is there something inherently attractive about a VPS to spammers, abusers, etc.? Or is it just because they are relatively inexpensive as compared to a dedicated server, and yet private?

    Respectfully awaiting your take on this.
    Sue

    A generation which ignores history has no past — and no future. --Lazarus Long

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BristolSue View Post
    Hi,

    I'm just curious on your take of why VPS accounts have the highest rate of fraud. Is there something inherently attractive about a VPS to spammers, abusers, etc.? Or is it just because they are relatively inexpensive as compared to a dedicated server, and yet private?

    Respectfully awaiting your take on this.
    Cheap with root access. You can do all sorts of nasty things with one, if the host lets you.

    --Tina
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  30. #30
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    Thanks Tina. I never really looked at it that way before. I appreciate your answering.
    Sue

    A generation which ignores history has no past — and no future. --Lazarus Long

  31. #31
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    Doesn't SliceVPS do automated VPS setups?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orien View Post
    Doesn't SliceVPS do automated VPS setups?
    I meant to say SliceHost, but apparently slicevps.com leads to them anyways.

  33. #33
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    Like someone else has said, it is just like SpamAssassin or any classification system that assigns a "score" to a coming task. You should be able to determine whether instant provisioning should take place depending on the score, and fine tune the score if there's too many false negatives. Any order that falls above the threshold goes into a manual provisioning queue, but orders that get green lights (US IP address, valid phone number and address, clean credit card, or whatever) shouldn't be "penalised" by making them wait up to 24 hours for the servers.

    Classifier-based systems are used everywhere everyday. How hard is it to implement them in VPS provisioning?

  34. #34
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    I don't want to "fine tune" my fraud checking system on live orders. I don't want "too many false negatives" to tell me that I have a problem. Personally, I'll continue to manually check our orders against fraud. Its been working for us for more than a decade and we have an almost zero rate of chargebacks (and false postitives as well).

    For some companies, the instant hands-off approach works. To each their own and both methods serve a purpose. I can't say that one is better or worse than the other.

    --Tina
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ylsy View Post
    Classifier-based systems are used everywhere everyday. How hard is it to implement them in VPS provisioning?
    Have you used them??

    Honestly, the scammers are getting so good to know we as providers use these filtering systems (like maxmind). Don't forget they too also have access to these tools and will try to make their order look as legit as possible.

    We've seen quite a few that would have passed if automated, that shouldn't. In fact with MaxMind they have alerted us hours later on quite a few orders (that we found fake) that they changed the score.

    Michael, mind you I'm not saying 24+ hours is acceptable, but instant for new customers is asking for trouble on many levels. If during business hours 3-4 hours should be the max. For not even getting a call back in 24 hours, makes me wonder if they are even doing the work full time.

    The ones that do offer instant I'm curious myself what's the % charge backs someone like HostSlice has..
    Larry Ludwig
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  36. #36
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    In the four years I've been doing manual anti-fraud checks (combination of my own resources and maxmind, together), I have had a incredibly huge number of... ZERO... chargebacks due to fraud orders. None. When you rely on an automated system, you're saying "Okay, I don't mind losing a few bucks here and there for chargebacks/fraud orders for the sake of saving myself a few minutes."

    As long as I am involved in this industry and handle order reviews, I will continue to utilze manual reviews, because I trust my methods above and beyond everything else automated.
    Douglas Hazard - Certifiable Sports Junkie and Sports Community Enthusiast

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  37. #37
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    In five years, I've had two. (Proof) We average 30-50 orders a month.

    Manual is a much, much safer way to go.
    Jen Lepp
    “Customer service represents the heart of a brand in the hearts of its customers.” – Kate Nasser

  38. #38
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    I also believe that the experienced human eye can more accurately detect fraud than any automated system. I use both, with the automated system sending a notice on suspicious orders that allow for even closer scrutiny come time for manual verification.

    On orders for shared and reseller hosting, I don't think manual verification is a must have, as I believe it is for VPS hosting. There's just a lot more potential damage for a malicious VPS user than there is for a shared/reseller user in a locked down environment.

    I'd say there's room to be thankful that the ones that did call you to verify are looking out for their network and, in the end, your best interests as a user on that network.
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  39. #39
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    I've had automated review systems clear an order automatically, without alerts, yet when I go in and scruitinize the order manually, they fail. These scammers are getting much more clever in their methods of bypassing even the most auspicious anti-fraud utilities out there.

    Humans will NEVER be replaceable! (Said elsewhere, too)
    Douglas Hazard - Certifiable Sports Junkie and Sports Community Enthusiast

    Host of Two Cents Radio - Follow @TwoCentsRadio on Twitter (@BearlyDoug on Twitter)

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    I've had automated review systems clear an order automatically, without alerts, yet when I go in and scruitinize the order manually, they fail. These scammers are getting much more clever in their methods of bypassing even the most auspicious anti-fraud utilities out there.

    Humans will NEVER be replaceable! (Said elsewhere, too)
    That same anti-fraud check system you guys use also managed to mark mine as a fraud order, so your system isn't 100% accurate.

    I like to perform a manual phone check if the order is over $100
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