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  1. #26
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    us, but i really need it to be good in europe area

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by notmove View Post
    us, but i really need it to be good in europe area
    Asking specifically, as in what state. As different ISP's are better in some locations than others.


  3. #28
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    California
    Los angles

  4. #29
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    I would go with XO. Level3 (usually) does not offer single server colocation, or anything below $10,000 in revenue I heard.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by notmove View Post
    ok, Also which is better for colocation, XO or level3, as they are both close to where i live.
    The account is small enough that Level3 won't talk to you directly. Contact one of their resellers-- colocation.com, iland.com, etc.

    Speaking from experience with both carriers, if I was forced to single-home, Level3 would win without a contest. I would never, repeat never, single-home to XO. My personal opinion of them is, they are like Cogent only far more arrogant.

  6. #31
    What price did they offer to you for colocation at XO?

    If you don;t mind saying..
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 111111z View Post
    What price did they offer to you for colocation at XO?

    If you don;t mind saying..
    And a followup question-- is their facility carrier neutral? (i.e., are other carriers present in the facility to cross-connect with)

    It's my understanding the facility in our area is not, meaning you cannot purchase transit from anyone except XO. That will put you into a difficult position should your XO experience reflect ours. You would be pretty much held hostage to their network until your colo contract expires.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecompro View Post
    And a followup question-- is their facility carrier neutral? (i.e., are other carriers present in the facility to cross-connect with)

    It's my understanding the facility in our area is not, meaning you cannot purchase transit from anyone except XO. That will put you into a difficult position should your XO experience reflect ours. You would be pretty much held hostage to their network until your colo contract expires.

    I am not sure but i am guessing that it is the same over here, it shouldn't be a problem if there bandwidth is good.

    im still waiting for a response on how much they are going to cost me.

    thanks

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by notmove View Post
    Thanks for the input, i was talking with xo and the price they gave me was $6 per mbit with minimum 100mbits
    I'm having a hard time believing that quote. There must be a catch (such as it's for home/office use only, and not for serving). Also, the local loop fee is going to be the big expense, since they have to get the bandwidth to your house somehow. I'd expect 100Mbps of internet transit to your house to cost several thousand dollars per month on a realistic quote.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by notmove View Post
    it shouldn't be a problem if there bandwidth is good.
    If your experience mirrors ours, you won't be using "XO" and "good bandwidth" in the same sentence for very long. Their bandwidth isn't frighteningly horrible, but I would never single-home to them unless there was absolutely no other choice.

    Since you have a Level3 facility nearby, I strongly encourage you to speak with one of their resellers first. Level3 is way above XO in terms of bandwidth quality and in most (if not all) their facilities you have other carriers to XC with, if you so choose.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bqinternet View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by notmove
    Thanks for the input, i was talking with xo and the price they gave me was $6 per mbit with minimum 100mbits
    I'm having a hard time believing that quote. There must be a catch (such as it's for home/office use only, and not for serving).
    Same here. I couldn't even get Cogent anywhere near that low, and that was inside a Cogent facility in a major metro market.

    Quote Originally Posted by bqinternet
    Also, the local loop fee is going to be the big expense, since they have to get the bandwidth to your house somehow. I'd expect 100Mbps of internet transit to your house to cost several thousand dollars per month on a realistic quote.
    Agreed. If that $6 figure is real (I still think there's a "gotcha" somewhere in there) it has to be on a multi-year contract, with local loop NOT included. And as we all know, the loop (especially if provided by the incumbent telco) sometimes costs more than the transit.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by notmove View Post
    I think most were right, im just going to do a colocation over at XO, I live close to them and they offered me a great price. But the only thing i was worrying about, if the server goes offline i would have to go there in the middle of the night.
    what would happen that SSH can't fix? I have had my server coloed for 1 year over 3000 miles away. I just found a place that stocks hardware incase something fails. And if you buy quality stuff and run raid you have not to much to worry about.

    oh maybe look at a colocation place that would have multiple connections to different people and will sell you bandwidth at the 95% rule. That's what i'm doing and it works great.
    Last edited by KayakStudio; 05-19-2008 at 07:16 PM.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    what would happen that SSH can't fix? I have had my server coloed for 1 year over 3000 miles away. I just found a place that stocks hardware incase something fails. And if you buy quality stuff and run raid you have not to much to worry about.
    <chuckling quietly> You're assuming the OS will boot. Manage servers, remotely, long enough, and it's not IF... but WHEN... a server will go down (usually at the worst possible time) and can only be fixed from a local console.

    Here are a few true stories from my career.

    Ever had a PC hang at the BIOS/POST screen for no apparent reason? I have. Server was rebooted but never came back up. Made the 32 mile trip to the colo in a panic because this was a very important box. Got there, only to find the machine sitting on the POST screen with the infamous "Hit F1 to Continue" message. Hit F1, server booted right up. Walked back to my car, drove another 32 miles back to the office relieved it wasn't serious, but highly annoyed something so stupid wasted 2 hours of my day. (then promptly called the vendor for a new motherboard) This was ~6 years ago before we got KVM/IP gear.

    Ever accidentally disabled a NIC on a running machine? I shamefully admit to doing that once. Another 64 mile round trip to re-enable it. (also circa 6 years ago before we got KVM/IP)

    Ever had a machine blue screen on boot, but were able to get into Safe Mode (Windows box) and correct the problem? I have, and thankfully the box was hooked to KVM/IP. I did NOT have to make the 64 mile round-trip to the colo, and server downtime was minimal. Problem was fixed from my office in about 10 minutes.

    Ever had a customer crash their server to the point it wouldn't boot-- but you had a good backup image stored elsewhere on the network? I have. The box had KVM/IP and I was able to PXE boot it, restore the image, and get the box back online without driving to the colo. Solved everything from my office.

    Ever had a machine go down somewhere in the vicinity of 3:00 a.m.? All you know is your pager went off but you have no clue what happened to the machine. It WILL ping but NO services are responding. I have. And again, thanks to KVM/IP (which is worth its weight in gold) I was able to fix the problem and get back to sleep before 4:00 a.m.

    This one isn't KVM/IP related, but I'll throw it in because it relates to remote-control hardware. Ever had a machine not fully unload the OS when rebooting, and hang? I have many times over the years, and a quick power cycle fixes it. Of course one time it had to happen to a box that-- for reasons the employee who installed it could not explain-- wasn't connected to a PDU (remote reboot switch). Drove 64 miles round trip just to hit the Reset button, wasting nearly 2 hours of my Sunday afternoon.

    I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Manage enough servers for a long enough time, and it will happen to you, too.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecompro View Post
    <chuckling quietly> You're assuming the OS will boot. Manage servers, remotely, long enough, and it's not IF... but WHEN... a server will go down (usually at the worst possible time) and can only be fixed from a local console.

    Here are a few true stories from my career.

    Ever had a PC hang at the BIOS/POST screen for no apparent reason? I have. Server was rebooted but never came back up. Made the 32 mile trip to the colo in a panic because this was a very important box. Got there, only to find the machine sitting on the POST screen with the infamous "Hit F1 to Continue" message. Hit F1, server booted right up. Walked back to my car, drove another 32 miles back to the office relieved it wasn't serious, but highly annoyed something so stupid wasted 2 hours of my day. (then promptly called the vendor for a new motherboard) This was ~6 years ago before we got KVM/IP gear.

    Ever accidentally disabled a NIC on a running machine? I shamefully admit to doing that once. Another 64 mile round trip to re-enable it. (also circa 6 years ago before we got KVM/IP)

    Ever had a machine blue screen on boot, but were able to get into Safe Mode (Windows box) and correct the problem? I have, and thankfully the box was hooked to KVM/IP. I did NOT have to make the 64 mile round-trip to the colo, and server downtime was minimal. Problem was fixed from my office in about 10 minutes.

    Ever had a customer crash their server to the point it wouldn't boot-- but you had a good backup image stored elsewhere on the network? I have. The box had KVM/IP and I was able to PXE boot it, restore the image, and get the box back online without driving to the colo. Solved everything from my office.

    Ever had a machine go down somewhere in the vicinity of 3:00 a.m.? All you know is your pager went off but you have no clue what happened to the machine. It WILL ping but NO services are responding. I have. And again, thanks to KVM/IP (which is worth its weight in gold) I was able to fix the problem and get back to sleep before 4:00 a.m.

    This one isn't KVM/IP related, but I'll throw it in because it relates to remote-control hardware. Ever had a machine not fully unload the OS when rebooting, and hang? I have many times over the years, and a quick power cycle fixes it. Of course one time it had to happen to a box that-- for reasons the employee who installed it could not explain-- wasn't connected to a PDU (remote reboot switch). Drove 64 miles round trip just to hit the Reset button, wasting nearly 2 hours of my Sunday afternoon.

    I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Manage enough servers for a long enough time, and it will happen to you, too.
    You’re talking rebooting and windows. <laughing hard> Anyway that is why you make sure the DC has free helping hands. Chances are they would have walked over, hooked up KVM and pressed F1 faster than could drive there. It is cool if there is a data center near you but in reality it isn't a big deal if it isn't.

    The only data center near me charges $600 a month for 10Mbps (plus space). Considering the prices anywhere else even if I have to pay someone a couple hours it will still be cheaper.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    You’re talking rebooting and windows. <laughing hard>
    Not all servers I mentioned above-- or which caused other drives to the colo in panic-- were Windows. It wasn't until Windows 2000 came out that I even *considered* running public-facing Microsoft servers. NT 4 was worse than an abortion. Its security was criminal. Before that, 90% of what I ran was Caldera OpenLinux and the rest was Red Hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    Anyway that is why you make sure the DC has free helping hands.
    Chances are they would have walked over, hooked up KVM and pressed F1 faster than could drive there.
    This particular facility was lights-out.

    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    It is cool if there is a data center near you but in reality it isn't a big deal if it isn't.
    I'm curious how many servers you've managed. Early in my career there was no commercial internet, and nothing I managed was critical enough to be up 24x7. I didn't even wear a pager.

    Then about 12 years ago I took a job at a tech services company that was expanding into web hosting, and we put 4 servers in colo. I thought SSH was all we needed. I was wrong. As I took bigger/better jobs and the number of servers I was responsible for climbed into the dozens... then hundreds... I quickly woke up to the reality of just how incredibly important (highly reliable) remote-control tools are. At my current job, we spend a lot of extra money for HP servers with the ILO2 Advanced pack option-- because remote management really IS that important, especially with that much revenue depending on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    The only data center near me charges $600 a month for 10Mbps (plus space). Considering the prices anywhere else even if I have to pay someone a couple hours it will still be cheaper.
    A (good) KVM/IP unit will set you back about $700, one-time cost. That may sound expensive-- until it saves your butt, then you'll think it's the best money you ever spent. Daisy chain that to a standard 8 or 16 port KVM switch and you can remote control that many servers for minimal incremental cost increase. Some day it will happen-- believe me it will-- that your box is dead, no SSH, and the colo rack jockey is on break. (and do you really want them messing with your box, or worse, knowing your root password?)

    BTW, if the bandwidth is good quality, $60/megabit on a small 10 megabit commit isn't that terrible. But if you only have the 1 server I can understand how unappealing that is. (at which point I'd have to ask if you'd given a second thought to just renting a good server from a reputable company instead of colo'ing your own box, which I understand does have its advantages)

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecompro View Post
    I'm curious how many servers you've managed. Early in my career there was no commercial internet, and nothing I managed was critical enough to be up 24x7. I didn't even wear a pager.

    Then about 12 years ago I took a job at a tech services company that was expanding into web hosting, and we put 4 servers in colo. I thought SSH was all we needed. I was wrong. As I took bigger/better jobs and the number of servers I was responsible for climbed into the dozens... then hundreds... I quickly woke up to the reality of just how incredibly important (highly reliable) remote-control tools are. At my current job, we spend a lot of extra money for HP servers with the ILO2 Advanced pack option-- because remote management really IS that important, especially with that much revenue depending on it.
    I have two LAMPs. I host websites I design. It's not my primary job or else I would run with it. I would like to hear examples of these problems. I really have no clue that would go wrong. Except hardware failure. That's why I picked a data center that has parts to sell me if anything dies, and so far after 2 years nothing has gone wrong. Maybe it's the GNU/Linux distro you use. I've been running Debian and haven't had anything break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecompro View Post
    BTW, if the bandwidth is good quality, $60/megabit on a small 10 megabit commit isn't that terrible. But if you only have the 1 server I can understand how unappealing that is. (at which point I'd have to ask if you'd given a second thought to just renting a good server from a reputable company instead of colo'ing your own box, which I understand does have its advantages)
    There are so many other factors to running a good service than bandwidth. I doubt any of my customers would notice if I started routing things over "quality" bandwidth. Actually they would when I would have to pass the cost to them. Have you ever priced renting a server? Buying one pays for its self very quickly. Sure they seem cheap but add on 4gb ram and four 750gig drives and in a few months you just bought it. Except you keep buying it, month after month. It's like people who put things on credit cards. They don't add up how much it's really going to cost them to have that product.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    I would like to hear examples of these problems. I really have no clue that would go wrong.
    See my post above where I gave a few true stories. Harware issue (buggy motherboard). Operator error (errant keystroke late at night when my brain was foggy, accidentally disabled a NIC). Customer error. Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    Except hardware failure.
    Computers don't always behave as we expect. I doubt there is anyone who's used computers long enough, who hasn't needed the Reset button at least once in their life. (and you can't push the Reset button via SSH)


    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    That's why I picked a data center that has parts to sell me if anything dies, and so far after 2 years nothing has gone wrong.
    That's a good start, and certainly better than a lights-out facility. Keep in mind that your 2 years of positive experience means the server is now 2 years old (or more, if it was used before it was shipped to the colo). Parts fail and hard drives usually go first. You *do* keep *off-server* backups, right? During my career I've seen many people do disk-to-disk backups on the same server, and I've seen a person or two lose it all because of some issue with the server. Even backing up to a low-cost file dump like Amazon S3 is better than nothing. Downloading backups to your house is OK, too. Just be mindful that if you have to restore from home, your upload speed will be a huge bottleneck (unless you have FIOS).

    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    Maybe it's the GNU/Linux distro you use. I've been running Debian and haven't had anything break.
    All OSes will eventually have problems, given enough time. Files become corrupt, a patch installation goes sour, machine won't reboot after a kernel recomplile. Insert your horror store here _______.


    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    Have you ever priced renting a server? Buying one pays for its self very quickly. Sure they seem cheap but add on 4gb ram and four 750gig drives and in a few months you just bought it. Except you keep buying it, month after month.
    I guess it depends on how much the original box costs. If it's a $600 home-built machine with some fat disks that you can colo for under $100/mo, then colo makes good sense. One of our standard servers is more than $2500. Add $100/mo for colo + bandwidth. After 2 years, the equipment cost plus colo fees add up to nearly $5000. Compare that to $159/mo. for a rented server which includes 2 TB of bandwidth, Remote Reboot, and KVM/IP. It would take nearly 3 years before you see any savings with colo-- at which point the server is getting old and near retirement anyway-- so renting makes sense. Now if loading the server up with 4 x 750 GB disks and other stuff kicks the rental price to $300/mo., then yes, colo is the winner.


    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    It's like people who put things on credit cards. They don't add up how much it's really going to cost them to have that product.
    This is a rant for another day, but you are absolutely right. Credit cards have enabled a whole generation that only looks at the monthly payment and not the TOTAL cost over time. The concept of saving your money no longer exists. I was raised to believe (except for a house or car) if you don't have the cash in hand, you can't afford it today. Save your money and come back later. (sounding more like my grandfather ever day...)

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecompro View Post
    See my post above where I gave a few true stories. Harware issue (buggy motherboard). Operator error (errant keystroke late at night when my brain was foggy, accidentally disabled a NIC). Customer error. Etc.



    Computers don't always behave as we expect. I doubt there is anyone who's used computers long enough, who hasn't needed the Reset button at least once in their life. (and you can't push the Reset button via SSH)
    If you haven't given Debian a try I suggest it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ecompro View Post
    That's a good start, and certainly better than a lights-out facility. Keep in mind that your 2 years of positive experience means the server is now 2 years old (or more, if it was used before it was shipped to the colo). Parts fail and hard drives usually go first. You *do* keep *off-server* backups, right? During my career I've seen many people do disk-to-disk backups on the same server, and I've seen a person or two lose it all because of some issue with the server. Even backing up to a low-cost file dump like Amazon S3 is better than nothing. Downloading backups to your house is OK, too. Just be mindful that if you have to restore from home, your upload speed will be a huge bottleneck (unless you have FIOS).
    You can get fast uploads with cable. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecompro View Post
    All OSes will eventually have problems, given enough time. Files become corrupt, a patch installation goes sour, machine won't reboot after a kernel recomplile. Insert your horror store here _______.
    You should give debian a try.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ecompro View Post
    I guess it depends on how much the original box costs. If it's a $600 home-built machine with some fat disks that you can colo for under $100/mo, then colo makes good sense. One of our standard servers is more than $2500. Add $100/mo for colo + bandwidth. After 2 years, the equipment cost plus colo fees add up to nearly $5000. Compare that to $159/mo. for a rented server which includes 2 TB of bandwidth, Remote Reboot, and KVM/IP. It would take nearly 3 years before you see any savings with colo-- at which point the server is getting old and near retirement anyway-- so renting makes sense. Now if loading the server up with 4 x 750 GB disks and other stuff kicks the rental price to $300/mo., then yes, colo is the winner.
    It's all server grade, and way more than $600




    Quote Originally Posted by Ecompro View Post
    This is a rant for another day, but you are absolutely right. Credit cards have enabled a whole generation that only looks at the monthly payment and not the TOTAL cost over time. The concept of saving your money no longer exists. I was raised to believe (except for a house or car) if you don't have the cash in hand, you can't afford it today. Save your money and come back later. (sounding more like my grandfather ever day...)
    I think parents have a responsibility to their kids

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    If you haven't given Debian a try I suggest it.
    I have debian running on two inbound-gateway mail servers because that's the OS the spam filtering package runs on. In my career I've used Caldera OpenLinux, Red Hat Linux, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD. When I was a net admin at a local university back in the 90s, they ran on Solaris, so add that to my list. I don't find debian any better or worse. At the core, *NIX is pretty much *NIX, plus or minus some features, packages, and varying levels of default security. It's mainly the holy wars over the "best" distro, and compatibilty with certain software, that differentiate them.

    Even the venerable, seemingly-unbreakable FreeBSD is not immune to crashes. (pair Networks, one of the oldest and most experienced webhosts in the world-- and IMO, one of the best-- runs a 100% FreeBSD network of over 1000 servers and even they have crashes nearly everyday somewhere in their farm. http://www.pair.com/support/system_notices.html )

    Several years ago, before we bought our Juniper firewalls, we ran OpenBSD firewalls. (OpenBSD installs as bare bones, and we didn't add anything not absolutely necessary.) While they were amazingly stable and definitely single-purpose, there WERE rare occasions where a reboot was required to clear an error condition or non-specific funkiness. No OS is perfect.


    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    You can get fast uploads with cable. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS
    Relax. I'm well aware of DOCSIS 3 capabilities. I'm also not psychic so there is no way for me to know whether you have dialup, dsl, cable, fios, satellite, wimax, or are taking a free ride on your neighbor's open wifi. You implied your server has 4 x 750GB disks, which by extension implies you have a LOT of data. My comment was strictly to remind you that if you DO make backups and store them at home, and if you DO have to restore them FROM home, you may be days or weeks uploading hundreds of GB from home IF you don't have fast upload.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecompro View Post
    *NIX is pretty much *NIX, plus or minus some features, packages, and varying levels of default security.
    Packages make a huge difference. That is why things break in Ubuntu (yeah I tried it once, don't see the appeal) and not so much in Debian. Anyway we've lost the point here.

    Have fun and take care,
    -Ben

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by KayakStudio View Post
    Anyway we've lost the point here.
    Agreed, thread has drifted way off-topic. Anyway, each of us has to make decisions on what we consider "enough" remote access. I've had a long (over 20 years) career in this industry and have learned some things the hard way through my own mistakes, or by watching and learning from the mistakes of others.

    From my viewpoint, you can never have too much remote control. I can flash BIOS or resurrect an otherwise dead machine without leaving my desk-- something I could never do relying on SSH, RDP, or any other protocol that loads with the OS. But such wonderous ability comes with a pricetag. To me it's worth every penny, and then some.

    To others, having remote hands at the colo is sufficient, and that is fine. You have to do what you feel is best for your particular circumstance. As one tech person to another, I wish you the best of success with it.

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