Results 1 to 35 of 35

Thread: SEO scammers

  1. #1

    SEO scammers

    Has anybody ever read the white papers from apogee search http://www.apogee-search.com/Resources/whitepapers.php

    I was just thinking this may be a good time for a discussion on how to protect yourself from so called SEO Gurus.

    The industry is seeming more and more like a "well, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night" commercial.
    Technical Advisor for new A&E Series The Killing Season
    There are no random acts of violence
    Starts November 5th!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    1,479
    There is no such thing as SEO Guru. Follow Google's guidelines and you will be on the first pages.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Fort Thomas, Kentucky
    Posts
    269
    Right before anyone starts SEO on their own or hires someone you should do you homework and check everything out.
    Jaan Kanellis | iNET Interactive

  4. #4
    While i think there is not really such thing and an seo guru (although some are deffinatley more knowladgable) i have found most companies hire these people not for their skill but because they dont have time to do it on their own. Have you ever run a business? im not talking webhosting were 95% of the work is getting customers to signup. Its hard work and their really is no time to do any kind of seo work.
    strip poker anyone?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    6,984
    There is no SEO guru, but normally those SEO firms that are successful owns a lot of web sites that can provide substantial and high PR back links fast and effectively to the sites concerned. Hence I can't say that they are scammers, they did have the resources and can deliver what they promise. (of course not counting those that promises the sky).

    There are of course those that promises the sky and disappear when they received the money but like web hosting there are scammers but there are good ones.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pflugerville, TX
    Posts
    11,222
    At the end of the day, the best SEO technicians or companies need to be able to provide more than search engine results. They need to show that their customers' business were impacted by their work.

    If someone gives me documentation that shows how they were able to move a company from page 5 to top 5 in two months for 10 search phrases and held that position for a half year, I say "that's nice - how much was their actual traffic impacted, and how much more volume did they do in sales?" A real SEO expert has this information, because this information is the entire reason SEO is done in the first place! Getting high rankings isn't the end result. Getting more business is, and if you're going to invest in SEO, you want to know that your strategist has a track record of identifying SEO strategies that drive quality traffic and result in meeting business objectives. Otherwise, you can throw your high rankings away, because you wasted your money trying to capture searches that weren't relevant to your business goals.

    If the SEO specialist doesn't have resulting business goal-oriented information available regarding their clients, they are probably much too focused on the search engine result itself and not on what matters. The work they do might be effective, but you don't have the information you need to make any real conclusions, and hiring them is a crapshoot. Considering how vital goal information is to the legitimacy of the work, if that information isn't being kept, I would suspect that the SEO person is purposefully not keeping it, and I would be highly suspicious of why that might be.
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Fort Thomas, Kentucky
    Posts
    269
    Well said PM. It is not about rankings anymore. It is about conversions on those rankings.
    Jaan Kanellis | iNET Interactive

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    3,878
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve_Arm View Post
    There is no such thing as SEO Guru.
    *cough*cough*

    I can make anyone top 5 with as many keywords/keyphrases as they like...as long as the money's right.

    However like Steve said..if you follow google's guidelines you can't go too far wrong.

    Unfortunately...I'm fully booked up for months to take on new work.

    OWM
    ()
    Life's what you make it.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    1,479
    OWM,
    I can assure you that I have pages for specifc keywords hitting place 3 and 1 in Google. Sorry my point of you and you can't convince me otherwise.
    If you want to speak about building links and such I will agree with you, I refer to keywords only.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    101
    Quote Originally Posted by incrediblehelp View Post
    Right before anyone starts SEO on their own or hires someone you should do you homework and check everything out.
    Exactly
    Other wise you get fooled by so Called SEO guru's

    But we can't blame only on SEO guru's many of this customers want top rankings(in top 10) in small time span(10-15 days or a month) and in CHEAP price(maybe 100$ or less ). And I think this is the reason that so called SEO guru's taking the advantage of this.


    As incrediblehelp said before hire someone you should do your homework.


    P.S But there are some gurus out there, I am sure.And they deserve to put " Guru " in there name
    Vishal

    Indian Social Bookmarking tweetr.in

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    3,878
    The unfortunate thing with many SEO Companies is that they all say they can do this and that, when in fact the majority can't do much better than you could actually do for yourself if you took the time to read up on the topic.

    Things like backlinks work fine as long as they are quality backlinks from sites with decent pr's etc.

    I optimised a sex site for a client and it was on fire with regards to google until he started trading links with a ton of other sex sites which had poor pr's and google penalised it greatly.

    It's still thereabouts but nowhere near what it used to be like...still the conversion rate can't be too bad with regards to the site traffic because he still manages to buy a new luxury sports car every year and have a few holidays from some of the revenue.


    Some strategies work a lot better than others.

    owm
    ()
    Life's what you make it.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Chennai , India
    Posts
    4,608
    If someone gives me documentation that shows how they were able to move a company from page 5 to top 5 in two months for 10 search phrases and held that position for a half year,
    keeping the position for a half year does seem odd to me. If you look deeper you can't guess the when google updates its SERP and it normally would be tougher to keep up that position if the keyword is high ranked one.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pflugerville, TX
    Posts
    11,222
    Quote Originally Posted by Biju View Post
    keeping the position for a half year does seem odd to me. If you look deeper you can't guess the when google updates its SERP and it normally would be tougher to keep up that position if the keyword is high ranked one.
    I was just throwing that out there as an example. Insert your example in place of mine, and the message is the same
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    803
    with that said has any one used seohosting.com through hostgator? I get the idea about link triangulation and needing different class c's of ip's but beyond that what are they good for?
    Dave Parish
    (727)755-4033

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pakistan
    Posts
    2,752
    Quote Originally Posted by incrediblehelp View Post
    Well said PM. It is not about rankings anymore. It is about conversions on those rankings.
    Yeah right.

    That is the first thing my client asks me.

    "How much money will this bring?"
    regards,
    Zafar Ahmed
    I'm Zafar Ahmed.
    I provide
    SEO Services & eMarketing consultancy
    I'll be glad to hear from you

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Oztrayla Mate!
    Posts
    572
    Great post the_pm and very true, it's rare to see SEO's talking about sticky pages, high bounce pages or even looking at data to see 85% of customers are dumping their cart on step 4 of the checkout process because of usability issues.

    Most don't even look at any advanced data, it's just the same ol hammer backlinks in to it and hope things start on the up and up.

    For the last few years i've noticed a trend, these companies that promote themselves as "SEO Guru's" and "Expert SEO's" are some of the worst in the pack. I don't recall many (if any) people in the industry plugging themselves as a self proclaimed Guru or Expert to have anything more than a mediocre understanding at best of advanced search optimization.
    Great Host = WiredTree.com Managed VPS Hosting

  17. #17
    The PM: Nice post but let's try to stay within the Definition of SEO. Let's use wikipedias just so nobody can argue about the validity.

    Search engine optimization (SEO) is the process of improving the volume and quality of traffic to a web site from search engines via 'natural' ('organic' or 'algorithmic') search results for targeted keywords.
    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_optimization

    With that out of the way, let's move on to the rest of your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    At the end of the day, the best SEO technicians or companies need to be able to provide more than search engine results.
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    how much more volume did they do in sales?"
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    A real SEO expert has this information, because this information is the entire reason SEO is done in the first place!
    It is the reason SEO is done in the first place by the web site owner, yes. However, as the definition clearly points out, SEO has nothing to do with conversions or stickiness, or anything else, unless the SEO has signed on to also work on conversion ability, useability, etc. That is up to either the web site owner or a specialist who deals with those issues. In fact, as to a "real" SEO having that data, I have found maybe 4 clients in the past few years who were willing to share their sales details with someone they hired merely to get them more traffic thru SEO.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    Getting high rankings isn't the end result.
    Absolute bollocks. Read the definition of SEO, it has not changed in almost a decade. There is nothing in there that says anything about conversons, sales, useability, or anything but rankings. For an SEO, getting high rankings is exactly why the web site owner hired them.

    The above said, charging for getting rankings for non-relevant terms and terms that will not bring the client any useful traffic is just plain shady as hell, unless in the case where the client has his own predetermined set of keywords that he hires you to specifically go after. In those cases a real SEO should attempt to let the site owner know that the keywords he thinks will bring traffic will not and offer suggestions for alternatives, as well as why they are better terms.
    Last edited by nuclei; 04-05-2008 at 08:12 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    3,878
    The job is to drive more people to the wateringhole and hope they drink it, however if the water's poisoned then the people won't drink it.

    I can get a store selling pc hardware/software products top 5 on google or yahoo.....and drive traffic to it, however if the client's prices are more expensive or offer inferior products than the other sites around it then it ain't rocket science to figure out no matter how good the seo work carried out on the site is.....people are shopping for a bargain product and will usually tend to buy from the least expensive site or the one that offers a better deal.

    That's just one angle of seo but the main one.

    You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

    OWM
    Last edited by Outlaw Web Master; 04-05-2008 at 08:38 AM.
    ()
    Life's what you make it.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pflugerville, TX
    Posts
    11,222
    Absolute bollocks. Read the definition of SEO, it has not changed in almost a decade.
    Does the customer care that you met the definition of SEO, or that they got more customers?

    SEO doesn't happen in a vacuum. Neither does any other part of Web design or development. You must have knowledge of Web design, structure, conversion, usability, etc. in order to understand how your work as an SEO will impact your customer. The best SEO technicians can see past the "definition" of their jobs and have a well-rounded knowledge base that allows them to see and measure the impact of their work.

    "It's not my job" is a copout. A customer doesn't just want high rankings. They want high rankings that mean something.

    In fact, as to a "real" SEO having that data, I have found maybe 4 clients in the past few years who were willing to share their sales details with someone they hired merely to get them more traffic thru SEO.
    That's unfortunate. We have a 100% disclosure rate from customers. In my experience, they want us to know if the work we did produced measurable results, and they've been all too happy to share those results, sometimes down to actual sales numbers, and in some cases percentage increases. We can see the stats to know if they're getting more traffic and on what search terms. That part is measurable enough.

    To be fair, all of our SEO customers are design customers as well, so we are intimately connected with them. Maybe the key here is establishing a relationship of professional intimacy with your customers, and with their design team if that part was done by someone else.

    The job is to drive more people to the wateringhole and hope they drink it, however if the water's poisoned then the people won't drink it.
    That's a bit simplistic, unfortunately. If you operate a watering hole, and your SEO sends you a ton of traffic, but it's all people who are interested in orange juice, the SEO has driven a lot of traffic, has achieved high rankings, has met the definition of SEO, has achieved nothing for the customer, and it is his fault.

    The above said, charging for getting rankings for non-relevant terms and terms that will not bring the client any useful traffic is just plain shady as hell, unless in the case where the client has his own predetermined set of keywords that he hires you to specifically go after.
    Yeah. That^^
    Last edited by the_pm; 04-05-2008 at 08:54 AM.
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    Does the customer care that you met the definition of SEO, or that they got more customers?
    That would depend on whether you were honest with your client and spelled out exactly what you do and do not do. If you convince them they will get a ton of conversions, just because they hired you for SEO then you are being less than honest.

    While I do not agree with all of Outlaw webmasters post, he is correct in that here are aspects that will determine a sites conversions that an SEO will never have control over, prices for one, crap quality of design or useability also come to mind unless the SEO was hired to also improve those aspects.

    The fact is tho, that those aspects fall under another specialty. The job of an SEO plain and simple is to get rankings.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    You must have knowledge of Web design, structure, conversion, usability, etc. in order to understand how your work as an SEO will impact your customer. The best SEO technicians can see past the "definition" of their jobs and have a well-rounded knowledge base that allows them to see and measure the impact of their work.
    I could not agree more with this part of your post. Any SEO worth his salt should always know enough about these aspects to not "harm" the sites other aspects while doing his job.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    "It's not my job" is a copout. A customer doesn't just want high rankings. They want high rankings that mean something.
    Again you are comparing apples to oranges. I already stated a real SEO should always make sure the keywords he optimizes for are not only relevant but also drive traffic. (except in certain uncontrollable cases)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    That's a bit simplistic, unfortunately. If you operate a watering hole, and your SEO sends you a ton of traffic, but it's all people who are interested in orange juice, the SEO has driven a lot of traffic, has achieved high rankings, has mwet the definition of SEO, has achieved nothing for the customer, and it is his fault.
    While true, this falls under the last reply I made up above.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pflugerville, TX
    Posts
    11,222
    That would depend on whether you were honest with your client and spelled out exactly what you do and do not do. If you convince them they will get a ton of conversions, just because they hired you for SEO then you are being less than honest.
    No question! No SEO can guarantee conversion.

    But we all need to realize that if it wasn't for conversion, SEO as an industry would collapse because there would be no justification for it. An SEO must do everything he or she can to prove the value of his or her work, and that proof lies outside of the work itself.

    We can educate customers to understand that our work doesn't guarantee conversion, but if this become a prophecy rather than education, they'll learn that our work has no value. If an SEO wants to give their customer the best opportunity for success, they'll be more than just SEOs - they'll work actively in the other areas mentioned. SEO as part of a set of broader skills is much more valuable than SEO alone, and that's one difference between a good SEO and great SEO.
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pflugerville, TX
    Posts
    11,222
    Let's put this in very real-world terms. A Web site owner puts out an RFP for SEO work. He expects certain rankings on certain words and phrases. He expects the traffic to result in X% more traffic and X% business revenue.

    He receives two proposals. One comes from an SEO expert who details how he will effectively gain rankings for the customer. The second comes from an SEO expert who details how he will effectively gain rankings for the customer, analyze how the traffic is flowing through the site and help develop site strategies (and perhaps implement those strategies) to channel the traffic to desired action points, tweaking those action points to best compel visitors to perform the desired action (buy something, register for something, sign a petition, whatever the action may be).

    Who wins the contract?

    Take the same situation and remove the conversion requirements from the RFP. Take the same two proposals, one without conversion information and one with. Again, who wins the contract?

    Customers get it. They don't understand the "magic" that goes into getting higher rankings, but they understand traffic increases and sales increases. If you're talking to them in a language they understand and you're able to effectively and honestly deliver consulting services that go beyond achieving rankings, you are achieving something of real, measurable value for your customers. This is why I said:

    At the end of the day, the best SEO technicians or companies need to be able to provide more than search engine results.
    Because, at the end of the day, the best SEO technicians will do just that.
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    Take the same situation and remove the conversion requirements from the RFP. Take the same two proposals, one without conversion information and one with. Again, who wins the contract?

    Customers get it. They don't understand the "magic" that goes into getting higher rankings, but they understand traffic increases and sales increases. If you're talking to them in a language they understand and you're able to effectively and honestly deliver consulting services that go beyond achieving rankings, you are achieving something of real, measurable value for your customers.
    That was my entire point. I was not debating the usefulness or the need for conversion consultation, only that that is a different specialty. Someone hiring an "SEO" is hiring someone to get high rankings and as a result of that, more traffic from the search engines. Period.

    I am not disagreeing that the other specialties have merit or that they can not be sold with SEO as a package. But when that happens, it isno longer only an SEO they are hiring.

    You are grouping other specialties into the work of an SEO, and they are simply, not.

    Because, at the end of the day, the best SEO technicians will do just that.
    And as I have pointed out, at the end of the day the best SEO's will be ranking clients as they should be, and nothing else. The best all around marketers, on the other hand will be doing what you are suggesting.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pflugerville, TX
    Posts
    11,222
    You are grouping other specialties into the work of an SEO, and they are simply, not.
    Perhaps. And perhaps SEO specialists need to broaden their definition of their area of expertise to at least cover impact analysis and strategy, if not implementation, or they will risk becoming obsolete.

    I can see the day sometime in the future when an SEO who is very good at getting rankings had little work and is wondering why his skills are not so sought after, and the answer is because customers figured out the narrow scope of his work defined as search engine optimization wasn't enough by itself.

    To be an effective SEO, people will need to be more than just SEOs, or they will need to perform their duties as part of a marketing team. I predict that SEO specialists who position rankings as the end result will not survive in the future, and the SEOs who thrive will be those who incorporate more than just the rankings themselves into their work.

    Again, customers want business results. An SEO who is strictly an SEO by definition doesn't deliver business results (or at least doesn't position his services to do so). The SEO who doesn't give the customer what matters most to the customer will not be needed in the future. Give it another five years, when the industry is completely flooded. The differentiation point will be the broader marketing scope, and "old school" SEOs will die off, the same way semantic validity coders are killing off the old template slice-and-dicers right now in the world of Web design.

    Evolve or risk extinction people The best SEO technicians are five years ahead of their future dying brethren.
    Last edited by the_pm; 04-05-2008 at 10:07 AM.
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Waco, TX
    Posts
    5,292
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    Perhaps. And perhaps SEO specialists need to broaden their definition of their area of expertise to at least cover impact analysis and strategy, if not implementation, or they will risk becoming obsolete.

    I can see the day sometime in the future when an SEO who is very good at getting rankings had little work and is wondering why his skills are not so sought after, and the answer is because customers figured out the narrow scope of his work defined as search engine optimization wasn't enough by itself.

    To be an effective SEO, people will need to be more than just SEOs, or they will need to perform their duties as part of a marketing team. I predict that SEO specialists who position rankings as the end result will not survive in the future, and the SEOs who thrive will be those who incorporate more than just the rankings themselves into their work.

    Again, customers want business results. An SEO who is strictly an SEO by definition doesn't deliver business results (or at least doesn't position his services to do so). The SEO who doesn't give the customer what matters most to the customer will not be needed in the future. Give it another five years, when the industry is completely flooded. The differentiation point will be the broader marketing scope, and "old school" SEOs will die off, the same way semantic validity coders are killing off the old template slice-and-dicers right now in the world of Web design.

    Evolve or risk extinction people
    I agree with this fully looking at this as an outsider that does no design or SEO in any way on a business site. I don't even have a functional personal site at the moment.

    But as a business I would not simply want SEO services alone, that is useless from a ROI standpoint. If I don't have a value of return in my investment because my site design confuses users, I need a SEO+usability analysis and service, if one person can provide that then their market value will be much higher.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    Give it another five years, when the industry is completely flooded.
    Surprise!! It already is.

    The differentiation point will be the broader marketing scope, and "old school" SEOs will die off.
    it is a 90/5 thing really, some people say 90/10 but with the new flood of "experts" appearing in countries such as india, pakistan, etc., 90% know only basic SEO principles that they can read anywhere, the other 5-10% can actually rank for competitive terms. The SEO's in demand are the ones who can actually rank. Other considerations are not as important to smart businesses.

    Too many "broader reaching skills" clowns out there that simply can not rank. What is the term? Jack of all trades, master of none?


    Great, so they made the clients site look nicer, and maybe helped useability a little. If they cant rank and drive traffic, the site is going to die a slow death no matter if is the best in its class ro the worst. It has always been that way and I do not see that changing anytime soon.

    I realize that many (not all obviously) of the "broader reaching skills" guys have to tout that line to get any business at all, but real SEO's do not seem to have any problems getting and keeping clients.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pflugerville, TX
    Posts
    11,222
    Surprise!! It already is.
    We only think it is. In five years, we'll look back on the good old days think about how few people did SEO

    Too many "broader reaching skills" clowns out there that simply can not rank.
    Then they're not SEOs. They'll still serve a great purpose, because search engines are only one way a site generates traffic (indeed some sites have no interest in SE traffic at all!).

    But the SEO technician who is good at what he does and has no bearing on broader skills will not survive.

    I realize all the "broader reaching skills" guys have to tout that line to get any business at all, but real SEO's do not seem to have any problems getting and keeping clients.
    The 'broader reaching skills' people have the privilege of touting that line because they can show customers the traffic they brought meant something. If you match this with great SEO work, you will beat the SEO-only specialist every time. Of course if you're lousy at SEO, then your job is something else, not SEO. But down the road, if you're not talking ROI, you're going to find it much harder to come by clients.

    Four years ago I said the same thing about slice-n-dice coders. I told them it doesn't matter if you buy into the fact that Web standards are gaining importance and semantic validity is important. The industry will move forward with or without you, regardless of whether you believe you need to evolve or not. Sure enough...!

    I'll say the same thing here. It doesn't really matter what any one says - customers will dictate what's most important, and I'm saying what's most important is ROI, something to which SEO-only experts do not talk. Evolve or die. In five year it will all be a moot point. SEO by themselves will be a dying breed, and SEO/marketing specialists will rule. You can argue that point till the end of time, but what will be will be. That's my prediction.
    Last edited by the_pm; 04-05-2008 at 10:48 AM.
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    In five year it will all be a moot point. SEO by themselves will be a dying breed
    Some of us heard the same exact thing when altavista dropped from being one of th larger engines, yet again when yahoo fell from #1. It's been about 10-12 years and I don't see much difference. The engines change, the techniques change, but the model keeps on ticking.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pflugerville, TX
    Posts
    11,222
    Quote Originally Posted by nuclei View Post
    Some of us heard the same exact thing when altavista dropped from being one of th larger engines, yet again when yahoo fell from #1. It's been about 10-12 years and I don't see much difference. The engines change, the techniques change, but the model keeps on ticking.
    The difference is SEOs were asked to adapt to their technical environment. Here we're talking about adapting to the needs of customers. Does the model keep on ticking when customers increasingly demand ROI? Does the model still work when SEO experts are marketing both SEO and broader marketing skills? Only time will tell. I say customer demand, driven both by increased customer savviness and the establishment of need in the minds of customers by the hybrid SEO/marketers will result in the need for evolution of the industry as a whole.
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SEO cyberspace
    Posts
    423
    Sure the best "SEO"s have lots more skills than just getting pages to rank for keywords, the first step is to be sure that the ranking keywords chosen will drive qualified traffic, then they need to get the potential customers to click on those high rankings to visit the site and IMO the structuring of the page title, descriptions and page content all come into that as a part of the on page optimization.

    The SEO should have the knowledge to know for instance that the shopping cart used to build the site is killing on page optimization, or that the navigation system is going to create problems for visitors, etc, but when it comes time to recreate the menu system or the look of the page, its not necessary that he be a web designer, or a wordsmith who can create magic words that sell, or be able to whip up a new content management system at the drop of the hat, but he should at this point enter into the role of a consultant, telling his client what needs done, and perhaps recommend someone to do it, but he does not (should not IMO) need to be a jack of all trades.

    If you want someone who can fix your car you go to a garage, but if you want new upholstery or new paint you go to a specialist. It should be the same in SEO.

    If you are looking for a one stop shop, then look for someone who bills himself as an internet marketer and hope he has all the necessary skills that you need, but they are few and far between.

    But bottom line, no SEO can turn the ROI of a site that offers inferior goods or high prices around, that is the sole purview of the site owner and for that reason should not be included in SEO.
    I plan to live forever - so far so good
    Expert SEO |Sash Windows London

  31. #31
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Pflugerville, TX
    Posts
    11,222
    its not necessary that he be a web designer, or a wordsmith who can create magic words that sell, or be able to whip up a new content management system at the drop of the hat, but he should at this point enter into the role of a consultant, telling his client what needs done, and perhaps recommend someone to do it
    Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!

    That's exactly my point (bold text added for emphasis in the quote above). If you believe your job is done because you made a site appear high in search engines, you're going to be replaced by someone who believes the job is done when that high placement actually leads to something beneficial to the customer. The consultants who are able to see the big picture and develop strategies so customers can take advantage of their rankings are the ones who will be seen as valuable, necessary and successful.

    The ones who say "well, I got you good rankings - the fact that you're business didn't improve isn't my problem" are going to be replaced by the ones who make business improvement their problem. Simple as that.
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Colombia
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!

    That's exactly my point (bold text added for emphasis in the quote above). If you believe your job is done because you made a site appear high in search engines, you're going to be replaced by someone who believes the job is done when that high placement actually leads to something beneficial to the customer. The consultants who are able to see the big picture and develop strategies so customers can take advantage of their rankings are the ones who will be seen as valuable, necessary and successful.

    The ones who say "well, I got you good rankings - the fact that you're business didn't improve isn't my problem" are going to be replaced by the ones who make business improvement their problem. Simple as that.
    I agree with that. If the customer does not profit then it does no one any good.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    2,585
    Successful SEO people/companies know its all about ROI. A customer will not care if they are on the first page on Google, if its not bringing in any money.

    If you can get pages popular, people interested in your content/products, then get them to purchase... you've done your job.

    I have a perfect example...

    I am doing SEO work for a pet store in my local city. They went from not being listed on Google to having over 8,000 pages (mind you I created them an on-line store), plus being on the first page on Google for 25 keywords, where 6 of them are #1, or #2. But its not bringing in a lot of cash for them at the moment. Think they are jumping up and down, since they have #1 keywords? They want money. They want a return on their investment. Which eventually will pick up, and they will be happy.
    www.JGRoboMarketing.com / We Filter out the Bad Leads and Send you the Good ones!
    █ Office: (800) 959-0182 / Automated Lead Funnel Service

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pakistan
    Posts
    2,752
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkFloydWS View Post
    Successful SEO people/companies know its all about ROI. A customer will not care if they are on the first page on Google, if its not bringing in any money.

    If you can get pages popular, people interested in your content/products, then get them to purchase... you've done your job.

    I have a perfect example...

    I am doing SEO work for a pet store in my local city. They went from not being listed on Google to having over 8,000 pages (mind you I created them an on-line store), plus being on the first page on Google for 25 keywords, where 6 of them are #1, or #2. But its not bringing in a lot of cash for them at the moment. Think they are jumping up and down, since they have #1 keywords? They want money. They want a return on their investment. Which eventually will pick up, and they will be happy.
    Mind if you tell me whats the URL of this website?

    Thank you
    I'm Zafar Ahmed.
    I provide
    SEO Services & eMarketing consultancy
    I'll be glad to hear from you

  35. #35
    This is a huge problem with so many website owners and SEOs, #1 does not = money.. It can help, but it's not the end of the road..

    What if you rank #1 for a phrase that almost no one searches for?? Or a phrase that isn't keyed for selling your product??

    Add to that the problem of actually converting that traffic in to customers.. How many clicks does it take to find and buy a product on the website?? 1? 5? 20?

    Is the call to action on your sales page obvious and compelling?? Or is it a tiny little button??

    SEO is one part of the overall marketing plan for any online website..
    Steve
    Metal Monster Marketing : Internet Marketing

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •