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  1. #1
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    Cogent DE-peers Telia

    Why is it that every time there is peering slugfest going on, the name COGENT is always involved


    http://gigaom.com/2008/03/14/the-tel...-web-for-many/

    It`s funny to see how Cogent is de-peering networks nowadays while in the past they were the ones whining when they got de-peered. Somewhat hypocritical of them if you ask me
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  2. #2
    Cogent de-peered a few networks recently so this isn't a surprise.....

  3. #3
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    yeah that is a load of garbage.

    I remember all the crying from them over how bad level3 was for doing this to them.
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  4. #4
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    Everybody whose business model relies on cogent to the degree that it can't afford to have all their European traffic going over other, more expensive providers is gonna suffer. But that's what you get when you don't plan ahead and rely too heavily on a relatively incompetent company that's cash-flow negative and whose executives and stockholders will be unwilling to spend the cash to fix the problem.

  5. #5
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    @bummer6666 we have quite a good few servers in your datacenter,

    i just wish to say thanks for dumping cogent this summer, the network improved substantially since then! keep up the good work

  6. #6
    Can anyone support that Cogent is the one who deepered Telia? This seems very against Cogent's philosophy....If these peering session are terminated I find it hard to believe that it is on the Cogent end...Stranger things have happened but how do we know what happened here?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by colokid View Post
    Can anyone support that Cogent is the one who deepered Telia? This seems very against Cogent's philosophy....If these peering session are terminated I find it hard to believe that it is on the Cogent end...Stranger things have happened but how do we know what happened here?
    Yes, check out this mail that Telia sent to their transit clients regarding the depeering.
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  8. #8
    Wow... What a stupid mistake on Cogents part. They will loose customers over this. Who do they think they are?

  9. #9
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  10. #10
    A stupid decision by Cogent.

  11. #11
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    I haven't seen anything that says the decision was Cogent's except for Telia's e-mail.

    Maybe Telia demanded huge fees and Cogent "decided" not to pay them.

    I'd like to see the other side of the spin. I seem to remember Cogent de-peering several smaller European networks last year in an effort to get Telia to peer with them. Seems strange they'd dump them a year later.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by WII-Aaron View Post
    I haven't seen anything that says the decision was Cogent's except for Telia's e-mail.

    Maybe Telia demanded huge fees and Cogent "decided" not to pay them.

    I'd like to see the other side of the spin. I seem to remember Cogent de-peering several smaller European networks last year in an effort to get Telia to peer with them. Seems strange they'd dump them a year later.

    Except for hands on experience with other carriers (who many of us have worked with in the past) having the exact same issue. Essentially Cogent turns around and goes "Aha! You're now using 400Mbps of Cogent! We're no longer peering with you, you have to pay transit rates (or we'll hold your routes and not send traffic)".

    Teh sux.

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by WII-Aaron View Post
    I haven't seen anything that says the decision was Cogent's except for Telia's e-mail.

    Maybe Telia demanded huge fees and Cogent "decided" not to pay them.

    I'd like to see the other side of the spin. I seem to remember Cogent de-peering several smaller European networks last year in an effort to get Telia to peer with them. Seems strange they'd dump them a year later.
    Cogent did do something similar towards other providers, and that can speak against them in the public eye (ours).

    Regarding the EU-market; I was under the impression that TeliaSonera actually is a major player even here and peers with just about everyone.

    I smell a rat here...

  14. #14
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    Swedish isn't my native language, so if someone else could confirm it would be nice. However as far as I can read:

    According to an interview with Telia in the Swedish media, the negotiations broke down between the two parties in relation to financing of infrastructure upgrade in the US that was necessary as full capacity was reached.

    Seems like a very odd reason for an event with such dramatic consequences, but of course there could be more to it.
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  15. #15
    That is the general idea yeah...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwr View Post
    Except for hands on experience with other carriers (who many of us have worked with in the past) having the exact same issue. Essentially Cogent turns around and goes "Aha! You're now using 400Mbps of Cogent! We're no longer peering with you, you have to pay transit rates (or we'll hold your routes and not send traffic)".

    Teh sux.
    That may be but my point is that we've only seen one spin on it. I wonder what cogent's side is.

    Now, that being said, this does smell like something Cogent would do. I am no fan of thiers and in the last several years thier business practices have become shady at best.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by WII-Aaron View Post
    That may be but my point is that we've only seen one spin on it. I wonder what cogent's side is.
    well considering the fact Cogent made press release hours after they got de-peered by L3 and they did not make one this time means they do not want to comment on the issue and we all know why is that.
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  18. #18
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    From a Cogent Source:

    "Cogent & Telia had a settlement free peering agreement in place. Telia breached this agreement and Telia was unable or unwilling to cure the breach after repeated requests by Cogent to do so.

    Cogent remains willing and anxious to restore the settlement free peering agreement as long as Telia is willing to meet all the terms of the agreement that they entered into.

    We regret any inconvenience that Telia's breach has caused users of the Internet."


    Always 2 sides to the story.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdw8 View Post
    Always 2 sides to the story.
    yes there are always 2 sides but the point is that Cogent has engaged in the same type of behavior they accused L3 off which they cried about it 2 years ago. Plus the fact the name Cogent has been involved in recent DE-peerings is somewhat troubling
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  20. #20
    Cogent & Telia had a settlement free peering agreement in place. Telia breached this agreement and Telia was unable or unwilling to cure the breach after repeated requests by Cogent to do so.
    The usual meaniningless press-speak.

    It would have been meaningful or informative is they had specified:

    1) what the breach was, and

    2) was the breach material
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  21. #21
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    I read this on the Internet, so take it with the appropriately sized grain of salt:

    After we broke the news about the Telia-Cogent spat, many of you emailed us to point out that Cogent constantly has problems with other Internet providers, and has become sort of a pariah in the wholesale bandwidth business. To that Schaffer says: They’re just jealous.

    “The problem is simple, no one likes our low-price pricing policy except our customers, and most of the companies have been reluctant peers with us,” says Schaffer, who has guided the company through some tough times. Indeed, its Wal-Mart style approach to bandwidth has helped the company grow its revenues, but not its standing in the ISP business. “They hate our pricing.”

    Getting specific about Telia, Schaffer says that the Nordic carrier is in breach of a contract with his company. The bone of contention is quite arcane. Cogent says that Telia was obligated to install certain peer connections with Cogent at specific locations, but hasn’t done so because it wants to degrade the experience for Cogent customers.
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  22. #22
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    Well, I guess we have more proof that being single-homed to anyone is a bad idea. :-)
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaethco View Post
    I read this on the Internet, so take it with the appropriately sized grain of salt:
    I wasn't certain this was the case, but if true, the fact they still can't communicate after the de=peer is certainly Cogent's fault and completely wrong... Someone on that page says, "Cogent may be the victim, but that doesn’t justify them filtering Telia’s routes they receive from Verio. Cogent isn’t tier 1, which means that if they don’t having a peering arrangement then they have to pay another network to transit the route. Cogent just doesn’t want to pay."
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  24. #24
    There seems to be a flap over who turned-down the peering, and why. That's not really the problem: peerings do come and go, sometimes for stupid reasons.

    However "no longer peering" is not the same as "refusing to hear routes via a 3rd party." I don't believe that blocking routes is a viable option for a carrier that claims to provide Internet transit service. If they want to filter routes, Cogent needs to update its sales literature to say "partial transit", or "access to most of the Internet".
    Last edited by Zitibake; 03-18-2008 at 09:20 PM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jwr View Post
    Except for hands on experience with other carriers (who many of us have worked with in the past) having the exact same issue. Essentially Cogent turns around and goes "Aha! You're now using 400Mbps of Cogent! We're no longer peering with you, you have to pay transit rates (or we'll hold your routes and not send traffic)".

    Teh sux.
    From your description, it sounds like they'll leave the peering arrangement until some traffic threshold is crossed. Can you give any advice where Cogent's "too much traffic for peering" threshold is? Does Cogent play this card with eyeball networks, or with content providers?

  26. #26
    @spaethco It is interesting that Gigaom.com boost them/himself and says that he/they were the ones "breaking the news" about this.. I don't know, this kind of writing isn't my cup of tea.

    What amazes me is that several days have past and whole datacenters are still "off the Internet" for anyone peering through TeliaSonera.

  27. #27
    However "no longer peering" is not the same as "refusing to hear routes via a 3rd party."
    Exactly.

    This might be put as "refusing to transit".

    From a cogent customer perspective, this amounts to "dropping packets you paid for".
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  28. #28
    I wonder what we will see next with Cogent in Europe? They say similar things about France Telecom and DT. Cogent say's that they keep enough peering ports and that FT and DT will not upgrade/ add ports on there end where needed to handle traffic. Cogent alleges that those EU networks will not add the needed capacity because they are scared of cogents low pricing and want to make Cogents service look bad. Maybe so or mabey the Ratios are off and in EU DT and FT don't like it. Either way the cogent solution is to take that traffic back to the US and peer it in NY and sent it back. hmm same argument they use to actually de-peer Telia.. so what's next.... The bottom line is when this level of de-peering occurs everyone looses.... excpet Cogent's competition...

  29. #29
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    http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080319/broke...rnet.html?.v=2

    Cogent = 15000 customers
    Telia = 36 000 000 customers

    so basically if you are using cogent it`s no longer full transit. If you ask me this is going to hurt Cogent more than Telia
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  30. #30
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    Perhaps previous depeerings haven't hurt cogent in the past as much as one would think and they feel this one won't be different either (expect now they did the depeering not the other way around).
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bummer6666 View Post
    http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080319/broke...rnet.html?.v=2

    Cogent = 15000 customers
    Telia = 36 000 000 customers

    so basically if you are using cogent it`s no longer full transit. If you ask me this is going to hurt Cogent more than Telia
    You're correct, it hurts Cogent more than Telia. The difference there is that many of those Cogent customers are data centers, serving a LOT of content. True, that is a lot of bandwidth, but the fact is, most data centers are multi-homed, so they'll just send the traffic to Telia over a different carrier, reducing their usage levels with Cogent, and thus reducing the amount they pay Cogent. For those data centers that ARE single-homed, those are the ones you should all stay away from , this will definitely make them consider bringing in another line, again affecting the amount they use Cogent. On the other hand, Telia is mostly end users, institutions, etc. where it is often MUCH harder to become multi-homed or to get/add another carrier.

    Note: Also, then Telia has a better excuse to their customers as well. If they ask why they can't reach a site they just say that that site is single-homed to Cogent and Cogent refuses to take their traffic. That issue can be corrected at either the DC or at Cogent. On the other hand, Cogent's excuse is, we're refusing to send Telia traffic directly, live with it.
    Last edited by KarlZimmer; 03-20-2008 at 12:07 PM.
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  32. #32
    Yes, TeliaSonera had '07 revenues of $16bn, $5bn EBITDA, $3.3bn net; Cogent had <$200m revenue, and a net loss.

    BTW, I just noticed that while Cogent is filtering Telia routes, Telia is also filtering Cogent routes. So both networks are providing partial transit.

  33. #33
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    Just got this from Telia.



    Dear Valued Customer,

    We would like to provide you with an update about your TeliaSonera IP service:

    Cogent Communications (AS174) has disconnected from TeliaSonera (AS1299), with the effect that the Internet is partitioned and, at the time of writing, customers of Cogent Communications and TeliaSonera cannot exchange Internet traffic directly or through a third party. Your IP Transit or IP Connect service may be affected as a result of this action.

    Cogent Communications has decided to comment openly about disconnecting their network and their decision to partition the Internet. While we do not believe that it is constructive to air a commercial dispute in the public domain or to negotiate through the press, we feel obligated to address certain matters that have been put at issue by Cogent.

    The accuracy of reported information has been quite variable and we would like to state to our customers that, whilst we will not comment on specific peering relationships, we would like to correct some information that been given to the media. First, if TeliaSonera had received prior notice explaining that Cogent intended imminently to disconnect all IP connectivity from TeliaSonera, then TeliaSonera would have attempted to notify its customers. Second, prior to Cogent's abrupt decision to sever connectivity, TeliaSonera had rejected Cogent's alleged breach of contract claim and explained TeliaSonera's belief that Cogent had failed to satisfy certain contractual requirements. Cogent, in turn, responded to this impasse by disconnecting all connectivity with TeliaSonera .

    TeliaSonera has long-standing and successful relationships with all Tier-1 networks. These relationships would not be possible if TeliaSonera could not meet connectivity obligations to a standard acceptable to Tier-1 peer networks. As has always been the case, TeliaSonera remains open to a commercial dialogue with Cogent and believes that it should be possible to reach a contractual arrangement acceptable to both parties. We recommend that our customers contact either the TeliaSonera Customer Service Centre or your Account Manager to discuss any specific concerns that you may have that have not already been addressed.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zitibake View Post
    BTW, I just noticed that while Cogent is filtering Telia routes, Telia is also filtering Cogent routes. So both networks are providing partial transit.
    I have been wondering about that myself, as TeliaSonera is not Tier1 as well.
    Wikipedia suggests they are purchasing routes from Verizon (UUNet), and UUNet apparently peers with cogent, so someone must be filtering this route as well.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noam View Post
    I have been wondering about that myself, as TeliaSonera is not Tier1 as well .... they are purchasing routes from Verizon (UUNet), and UUNet apparently peers with cogent, so someone must be filtering this route as well.
    Cogent is dropping routes with AS1299 in path, and Telia is dropping routes with AS174 in path.

    Nobody in the middle needs to do any filtering -- if for some reason traffic from Telia to Cogent ended up on UUNet (it shouldn't since AS174 would be in the path for that route) it wouldn't amount to much traffic anyway as there would be no return route from Cogent to Telia. The lack of 2-way communication tends to make IP useless in the vast majority of cases.
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  36. #36
    We have been a Cogent customer for a couple of years. In that time the local staff has been great. The sales group and support are really good folks. Unfortunately, the executive decisions are horrible. This is another case of Cogent using their customer's pain to try to pressure other carriers. Well, I have only a week left to make a decision on renewal. I think this is the final straw.

    I can never forget when an executive from Cogent told me, "We arent responsible to get you to every point on the internet." This was when we were going through the Level3 de-peering. In both issues with Level3 and Telia, Cogent had plenty of opportunity to send out an emergency notification to their customers telling them to make plans. They didn't.

    Every company has issues. How you handle them is how you set yourself apart. When I evaluate a company based on this it is pretty hard for me to sign that renewal.
    Looking for next opportunity

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zitibake View Post
    From your description, it sounds like they'll leave the peering arrangement until some traffic threshold is crossed. Can you give any advice where Cogent's "too much traffic for peering" threshold is? Does Cogent play this card with eyeball networks, or with content providers?
    Can't say, I'm not a current cogent customer. I imagine it depends on the circumstances of the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bummer6666 View Post
    Cogent = 15000 customers
    Telia = 36 000 000 customers
    Telia should pull a cogent, and offer sign up bonuses to all single homed cogent customers. (Cogent did this during the Level 3 depeering)

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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colo4-Paul View Post
    We have been a Cogent customer for a couple of years. In that time the local staff has been great. The sales group and support are really good folks. Unfortunately, the executive decisions are horrible. This is another case of Cogent using their customer's pain to try to pressure other carriers. Well, I have only a week left to make a decision on renewal. I think this is the final straw.

    I can never forget when an executive from Cogent told me, "We arent responsible to get you to every point on the internet." This was when we were going through the Level3 de-peering. In both issues with Level3 and Telia, Cogent had plenty of opportunity to send out an emergency notification to their customers telling them to make plans. They didn't.

    Every company has issues. How you handle them is how you set yourself apart. When I evaluate a company based on this it is pretty hard for me to sign that renewal.

    yeah I couldn`t agree more. Our Cogent rep was awesome guy who always tried to help out and cater to our needs. But higher up you go on Cogent`s food chain more you have to shake your head in disbelief.

    I could understand their less then perfect customer service in the past since they were a start up and had unbeatable pricing but nowadays you can get much better carriers for the same price as Cogent with much less headaches
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colo4-Paul View Post
    We have been a Cogent customer for a couple of years. In that time the local staff has been great. The sales group and support are really good folks. Unfortunately, the executive decisions are horrible. This is another case of Cogent using their customer's pain to try to pressure other carriers. Well, I have only a week left to make a decision on renewal. I think this is the final straw.

    I can never forget when an executive from Cogent told me, "We arent responsible to get you to every point on the internet." This was when we were going through the Level3 de-peering. In both issues with Level3 and Telia, Cogent had plenty of opportunity to send out an emergency notification to their customers telling them to make plans. They didn't.

    Every company has issues. How you handle them is how you set yourself apart. When I evaluate a company based on this it is pretty hard for me to sign that renewal.
    That should be Cogent's new official marketing slogan:

    Cogent, where we aren't responsible to get you to every point on the internet.


    Nah, too long and wordy.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sshepherd View Post
    That should be Cogent's new official marketing slogan:

    Cogent, where we aren't responsible to get you to every point on the internet.


    Nah, too long and wordy.

    "our tubes are shorter than yours" <- less wordy (offtopic: is "wordy" even a word?)

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