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  1. #1
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    Virtuozzo vs HyperVM

    Can someone point me to the a good thread where these two options are compared? Or can we start on here?

    I am thinking about it from a VPS host perspective.

    Thanks in advance.

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  2. #2
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    HyperVM is extremely affordable compared to VZ and recently they have had top notch support.
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  3. #3
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    The main benefit of HyperVM is that it supports multiple Virtualisation Technologies, OpenVirtuozzo, Xen and soon Linux Vserver I believe - Which can all be managed through 1 main control panel.

    On the other hand Virtuozzo Power Panel is only for the Virtuozzo Platform, so you have less flexability.

    It really comes down to what Virtualisation you wan't to offer your customers. Virtuozzo/VZPP is a fully commercial solution (HyperVM uses open source Xen/OpenVZ) so chances are that better support is available. Having said that Lxlabs go beyond what they need to in terms of support for HyperVM.

  4. #4
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    HyperVM is not bad thing to use if your on a budget but I personally would choose Virtuozzo.

  5. #5
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    HypereVM vs Virtuzzo.

    HyperVM supports a wide array of platforms, but it still lacks. It's looks and feel are about that of a fourth grade art project.

    Virtuozzo looks much more professional.

    I've never used Virtuozzo as an administrator though, so can't comment on their features.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougy View Post
    HypereVM vs Virtuzzo.

    HyperVM supports a wide array of platforms, but it still lacks. It's looks and feel are about that of a fourth grade art project.

    Virtuozzo looks much more professional.

    I've never used Virtuozzo as an administrator though, so can't comment on their features.

    What hypervm lacks? please support your statement with facts, it can do anything virtuozzo can do.

    I have same feelings for virtuozzo, becasuse design is a matter of personal choice, hypervm is highly advance and easy to use interface and virtuozzo is far inferior.



  7. #7
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    From my experience, I've found that most new start-up VPS companies nowadays use HyperVM, because of the low capital required to get up and running. However, I have to admit that I've noticed those same companies tend to go belly up pretty quick. I'm not blaming HyperVM for it at all, but I think HyperVM gives would-be-providers that mentality of "overloading/overselling" which leads to their inevitable demise. It kind of comes with the territory when your paying nickles and dimes versus dollars for licensing.

    On the other hand, if you look at the VPS market in the last couple of years, those that tend to offer commercial based VPS products such as VZ or even those that take technologies such as Xen and customize them in-house tend to have a much sounder business plan and a higher chance of success.

    So, if your serious about getting into this niche market of web hosting, I would suggest you sit down and come up with a good plan and capital to either buy a good commercial product such as VZ or spend the time and money to fully customize something like Xen or HyperVM/OpenVZ. That's what would truly separate you from the high schooler that just rents a server at TP running HyperVM selling VE's for $5/m and the business man that knows what he's getting into and expects his business to pay the bills.

    All of the HyperVM fans, no need to flame this is only my personal opinion, everyone is entitled to one. Thanks.

  8. #8
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    Sean,

    You bring up a few very good arguments. I must say, HyperVM is like wrestling a gator when it comes to customization, but all and all it is not a bad panel, even if it doesn't come down to nickels and dimes.

    By all means, Virtuozzo is gorgeous. It also prohibits the blatant overselling of resources as Sean also stated, to prevent overselling. Now, that can be a good thing, but it can also be a bad thing as Virtuozzo prices can go as far as $6 per VPS a month.

    With HyperVM, you get that same functionality, for $.50 /VPS per month, with the potential for resource expenditure. It's not the most gorgeous thing in the world as of Version 2.0, but the support team is great, it has wonderful features, and in 3.0 - the GUI will be completely redone. I would definitely recommend it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by r00ter View Post
    It also prohibits the blatant overselling of resources as Sean also stated, to prevent overselling.
    Well, I didn't really say that Virtuozzo prevents you as a provider from overselling. It in fact gives you more capability to do so than for example HyperVM on Xen. What I meant was that the low cost required to start offering VPS services [with HyperVM] tends to attract those that really don't know what their doing. It should also be made clear that there are plenty of successful VPS companies that offer HyperVM based services, but again it seems to me that they have spent the time, effort and capital into making their HyperVM-based product stand out amongst the crowd.

    Also, I would like to point out that there is a difference, when it comes to the VPS market, between overselling and overloading. Overselling can work to a certain degree, but it's when you start crossing that fine line into overloading where it becomes a problem. Some providers tend to manage their servers very well and offer a pleasant experience, while others who again are inexperienced just keep adding VE's until they start making money on their rental servers. You can see the results of said actions every day here on WHT, unfortunately.

  10. #10
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    Sean,

    I do have to say that you're right, and what I see daily in the offers forum is quite frankly absurd. Regardless of the control panel, you have to make sure your business plan, and mindset - are set in the right place. Sure Virtuozzo does cost more, but as Sean was saying - you have to price and evaluate your plans properly. Selling a 512MB RAM VPS for $5 here on WHT, sure, everyone will go buy one - until your server cripples, because you have 80 users trying to use 512MB of RAM at a time on a node with 8GB of RAM. It just wont work out! In any event, I'm sure you'll be happy with either panel.

  11. #11
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    A lot of users (from what I've found) on WHT seem to be looking for amazing quality from low cost providers and nobody seems to get the fact that sometimes you get what you paid for.

    It may seem like it's a great deal at first and everything goes smoothly, but a few months down the road when everything is oversold then it becomes a huge headache. I've had a lot of sales lost to low cost providers, but I know that most of them are out shopping again in a few months.

    With that being said, I'm not saying all low cost providers oversell, but it seems like you hear a lot on WHT about how the low cost providers aren't keeping up with their promise (sometimes the higher end providers too, but more low end than high end).

    Just my 2 cents...
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  12. #12
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    After experiencing hypervm's lxadmin control panel, my skin itches when i use cpanel. I won't host a decently trafficed site without HyperVM behind it. Not only is it cheaper, the support is AMAZING on their forum and their hostinabox template is just.. well amazing.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woooo View Post
    What hypervm lacks? please support your statement with facts, it can do anything virtuozzo can do.

    I have same feelings for virtuozzo, becasuse design is a matter of personal choice, hypervm is highly advance and easy to use interface and virtuozzo is far inferior.
    Harder to navigate, and not designed as nicely. Virtuozzo is easier on the eyes and more neatly organized.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by seankoons View Post
    From my experience, I've found that most new start-up VPS companies nowadays use HyperVM, (1)because of the low capital required to get up and running. However, I have to admit that (2)I've noticed those same companies tend to go belly up pretty quick. I'm not blaming HyperVM for it at all, but I think HyperVM gives would-be-providers that mentality of "overloading/overselling" which leads to their inevitable demise. (3)It kind of comes with the territory when your paying nickles and dimes versus dollars for licensing.

    On the other hand, if you look at the VPS market in the last couple of years, those that tend to offer commercial based VPS products such as VZ or even those that take technologies such as Xen and customize them in-house tend to have a much sounder business plan and a higher chance of success.

    So, if your serious about getting into this niche market of web hosting, I would suggest you sit down and come up with a good plan and capital to (4) either buy a good commercial product such as VZ or spend the time and money to fully customize something like Xen or HyperVM/OpenVZ. That's what would truly separate you from the (5)high schooler that just rents a server at TP running HyperVM selling VE's for $5/m and the business man that knows what he's getting into and expects his business to pay the bills.

    All of the HyperVM fans, no need to flame this is only my personal opinion, everyone is entitled to one. Thanks.
    1. Yes this is a big plus for sellers and buyers, it uses same engine, but better everything in less prices.

    2. Happens with any company using any kind of solution, proprietary or open source.

    3. Paying less i snot always good for business, But in this case yes, I must admit. The hypervm technically contain no bugs and all complaints are solved instantly, I just experienced theur support a day back, a VM was stuck and yes they were better then anybody else when it comes to support. Infact the biggest reason for me to stick with them is their reliability and support and not license fees.

    4. Come on, I am not flaming, But you really need to explore the things out, Expensive is not always the best, though you are paying a lot, But you will fall in love with hypervm if you use it.

    5. Well, not to mention just hugh-schoolers, but anybody who is non-serious about any niche always ruins market in that market, Not only hypervm/virtuozzo it happens in everything, and yes TP also leases VZ licenses starting $50 as well so a schoolar can get them easily as well, no need to be a gold partner with swsoft and spend hundreds a month.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougy View Post
    Harder to navigate, and not designed as nicely. Virtuozzo is easier on the eyes and more neatly organized.
    Will you also say that Linux lacks? looks and all other BS



  16. #16
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    Also HyperVM gives errors which are sometimes hard to interpret. And Yes hypervm is heavy on the eyes at times which can be annoying.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougy View Post
    Harder to navigate, and not designed as nicely. Virtuozzo is easier on the eyes and more neatly organized.
    HyperVM is like linux commandline versus windows GUI, beginners will prefer the GUI, those who don't care about looks and care about functionality will go with the command line.

    We have to face it, the VPS market is being spoiled by overselling budget hosters. Paying 20USD a month for 512MB ram, 10GB disk and 500GB traffic is *not* a realistic amount of money.
    Those kinds of hosters just get customers, give them a good VPS for a couple of weeks, after which they lose the customers again because the node is oversold. Then the customers usually go again to a budget hoster, to get in the same circle again.
    Starting up hosters that offer good VPSses at higher but more realistic prices, lose customers to the budget hosters, as I notice myself at the moment.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by seankoons View Post
    From my experience, I've found that most new start-up VPS companies nowadays use HyperVM, because of the low capital required to get up and running. However, I have to admit that I've noticed those same companies tend to go belly up pretty quick. I'm not blaming HyperVM for it at all, but I think HyperVM gives would-be-providers that mentality of "overloading/overselling" which leads to their inevitable demise. It kind of comes with the territory when your paying nickles and dimes versus dollars for licensing.



    All of the HyperVM fans, no need to flame this is only my personal opinion, everyone is entitled to one. Thanks.

    Hi Sean, :-)

    What you have described is the standard problem that any service goes through when it is becoming commoditized. The problem is not overselling, but a general lack of knowledge about virtualization in the industry. HyperVM/Lxadmin, for good or bad, has introduced virtualization to a large number of people who otherwise wouldn't have tried it. It may have caused issues now, but in the long run, it will lead to virtualization becoming ubiquitous. Openvz/Xen (hyperVM is merely a Control Panel) is doing to virtualization what Linux did to shared hosting. In 1999, I am sure someone would have reached exactly your conclusion comparing Linux hosting companies to companies hosting on Sun or IBM. But Today, I doubt anyone would want to make such a statement. We initially planned on charging higher for HyperVM precisely for these reasons, but we realized that in software, people have very clearly learned via Linux that cost does not have always correlate with quality. And as a vendor too, in the long run, it was better for us to make it a commodity than go for higher margins.

    People learn. And they learn fast when they are making mistakes. In a couple of years, vpses will be as cheap and as common as shared hosting. Knowledge and expertise is the key, and that is what is lacking now, and that is what is changing.

    Anyway, Hypervm is merely a simple Control Panel, which is why we are now giving a 10 server, 100 domain version of Lxadmin Enterprise itself free with it. You get the only truly distributed hosting Control Panel free with hyperVM. :-)

    If you want to invest in anything, I would advice investing in learning about openvz/xen technologies. As a comparison, people who learned to use Linux/BSD judiciously are the ones who ultimately succeeded in the shared hosting industry.
    Last edited by hello-world; 02-25-2008 at 01:55 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
    Anyway, Hypervm is merely a simple Control Panel, which is why we are now giving a 10 server, 100 domain version of Lxadmin Enterprise itself free with it. You get the only truly distributed hosting Control Panel free with hyperVM. :-)
    In what way does that differ from well-known distributed systems such as HSPhere, Helm and PEM?
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Layershift Andrew View Post
    In what way does that differ from well-known distributed systems such as HSPhere, Helm and PEM?
    Helm was windows only. Lxadmin can transparently handle Linux/Windows cluster, and you can even copy/paste a file between Linux and Windows. You can copy a file on windows and then paste it on Linux. You can move a website from Linux to windows, and it will automatically convert the configuration from apache/lighttpd to IIS. Our windows support is in beta, and will be released 2 months after Windows 2008.

    As for Hsphere, I can start a debate on why sshing remotely into a Linux machine and running script there shouldn't be called 'distribution', but madness, but any discussion on Hsphere would be moot, since Parallels page for Hsphere now explicitly recommends that you use Plesk for 'future growth'. A discussion on how a company can callously ask their customers to move from a centrally managed system like Hsphere to a single server system like Plesk, would be worthwhile, but that should be a separate thread.


    The only one left is PEM, but unfortunately it is not publicly available, even a demo. And I can only wonder at Swsoft's statement that a support contract with Swsoft is mandatory to deploy PEM on your servers. Is PEM so buggy that you need mandatory support personnel to maintain it? Lxadmin distribution just works. Our explicit aim at Lxlabs is to write software that doesn't need our support to run. Lxadmin Enterprise in its initial stages had this same issue. You could deploy it, but you would need constant help from us to maintain it, but Lxadmin Enterprise has outgrown that stage. From what Swsoft is claiming, the only conclusion I can draw is that PEM is still in the initial stages where it cannot be deployed without manual intervention. That's not 'true' distribution.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
    Helm was windows only. Lxadmin can transparently handle Linux/Windows cluster, and you can even copy/paste a file between Linux and Windows. You can copy a file on windows and then paste it on Linux. You can move a website from Linux to windows, and it will automatically convert the configuration from apache/lighttpd to IIS. Our windows support is in beta, and will be released 2 months after Windows 2008.

    As for Hsphere, I can start a debate on why sshing remotely into a Linux machine and running script there shouldn't be called 'distribution', but madness, but any discussion on Hsphere would be moot, since Parallels page for Hsphere now explicitly recommends that you use Plesk for 'future growth'. A discussion on how a company can callously ask their customers to move from a centrally managed system like Hsphere to a single server system like Plesk, would be worthwhile, but that should be a separate thread.


    The only one left is PEM, but unfortunately it is not publicly available, even a demo. And I can only wonder at Swsoft's statement that a support contract with Swsoft is mandatory to deploy PEM on your servers. Is PEM so buggy that you need mandatory support personnel to maintain it? Lxadmin distribution just works. Our explicit aim at Lxlabs is to write software that doesn't need our support to run. Lxadmin Enterprise in its initial stages had this same issue. You could deploy it, but you would need constant help from us to maintain it, but Lxadmin Enterprise has outgrown that stage. From what Swsoft is claiming, the only conclusion I can draw is that PEM is still in the initial stages where it cannot be deployed without manual intervention. That's not 'true' distribution.
    Plesk with Expand and Parallels Business Automation Standard (HSPc) offers distributed services comparable to HSphere from my understanding. I suspect that's what Parallels are getting at when they suggest Plesk as a future growth product. They don't say it has every feature HSphere has, and don't say they won't continue to support HSPhere, they simply suggest you use Plesk for future business growth. I am assuming you have no idea of their product roadmap for Plesk so I don't see how you can call this "callous" unless you know something I don't about their plans for Plesk/Expand/PBAS?

    PEM may not be publically available, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You said your product is the ONLY distributed hosting platform, Parallels' marketing material makes it pretty clear PEM is a fully distributed hosting platform. I have used PEM extensively and it is far from "initial stages" and a very mature product. They may make support mandatory, but that doesn't mean it's a bad product it just means it's complex and very comprehensive and so support is useful to guide you in the right direction from time to time. If you're making the huge committment to Parallels that PEM requires, I would imagine any sane provider would want the reassurance of support should things go wrong with their setup anyway, no software is bug-free and for any fully distributed hosting platform you need support engineers and developers there to begin fixing any problem you come across very quickly if it is impacting your business (and with any software you _will_ find a problem eventually, big or small).

    It seems to me you are trying to sell your product by posting comments such as "you get the _only_ truly distributed hosting Control Panel free with hyperVM" when you know very well that there are competitors out there who have been doing this a lot longer than you. I haven't used your product so I don't know how it compares, but I have used PEM and I don't believe for a minute that a company of your size has developed a product anywhere near as complete and mature as PEM (and is giving it away practically for free) unless you've been working on it for a *very* long time. If you have then perhaps it's time I demo it as I may really be missing out on something spectacular.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm sure your product has its place and it may be a great product I haven't used - I've heard some good things about HyperVM. I just think you are being misleading in your comments. That being said, more competition in the hosting software industry is greatly welcome and I wish you good luck with your products but I just feel you could be more accurate in your comments regarding your competition.
    Last edited by Layershift Andrew; 02-25-2008 at 06:13 PM.
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  22. #22
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    Check the below links. I am sure you will get an idea on the best product in the market

    http://boardreader.com/t/Dedicated_S...erVM_8471.html
    http://www.hotproductsreview.net/vir...s-hypervm.html
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Layershift Andrew View Post
    Plesk with Expand and Parallels Business Automation Standard (HSPc) offers distributed services comparable to HSphere from my understanding. I suspect that's what Parallels are getting at when they suggest Plesk as a future growth product. They don't say it has every feature HSphere has, and don't say they won't continue to support HSPhere, they simply suggest you use Plesk for future business growth. I am assuming you have no idea of their product roadmap for Plesk so I don't see how you can call this "callous" unless you know something I don't about their plans for Plesk/Expand/PBAS?
    Plesk/Expand/HSPC has fundamentally different architecture than Hsphere. The integration of Plesk/Hspc happens via XML messaging, and can in no way scale up. There are some fundamental ideas inherent in the core architecture which makes them incompatible, and I think anyone can confidently say that Hsphere is not the same as Plesk/Hspc. On Hsphere, you can access every domain in the entire cluster from a single place. To implement that in HSPC would be impossible. The design philosophies of Plesk and Hsphere are radically different, and there are MAJOR differences that are irreconcilable. If they had touted PEM as the replacement for Hsphere, it would indeed have been understandable. In fact, it is genuinely unconscionable behavior on the part of Swsoft that they have a product very similar to Hsphere (PEM), and yet, they ask their customers to move to another product with a differing architecture.



    PEM may not be publically available, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You said your product is the ONLY distributed hosting platform, Parallels' marketing material makes it pretty clear PEM is a fully distributed hosting platform.
    I said lxadmin is the only true distributed platform, similar to Swsoft's claim that virtuozzo is the only 'true' vps. My gripe is with their comment that support is mandatory . I would just define 'true' distribution as one for which support is not mandatory. :-)

    I have used PEM extensively and it is far from "initial stages" and a very mature product. They may make support mandatory, but that doesn't mean it's a bad product it just means it's complex and very comprehensive and so support is useful to guide you in the right direction from time to time.
    In the comparison page they said the difference between HSPC and PEM is that for PEM, support is mandatory . To get the full potential of ANY software, you will need assistance from the parent company. But making support mandatory is not a sign of great design.


    It seems to me you are trying to sell your product by posting comments such as "you get the _only_ truly distributed hosting Control Panel free with hyperVM" when you know very well that there are competitors out there who have been doing this a lot longer than you. If you have then perhaps it's time I demo it as I may really be missing out on something spectacular.
    I was merely adding to my statement that hyperVM is so simple that we are doing our best to provide some real value to our customers. As in, we are feeling uneasy that people are paying so much for such simple software, and we want to give something more to put ourselves at ease. :-) We have even open sourced some of our modules and drivers, and we even have a community of users who are contributing code to hyperVM/Lxadmin. Control Panels are trivial to write. I am really confused how Plesk and Cpanel can take so many years to develop, and still can't do distribution.

    Lxadmin demo is available at our site, and you can see how we have implemented transparent distribution. It will just work and we don't have a single outstanding bug at any point. If you report a bug, we will fix it within minutes.

    Thanks.
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  24. #24
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    I did have a look at lxadmin and to be fair, this and PEM is not even remotely close to being in the same league. PEM is *massive* and you can do close to anything remotely imaginable with it.

    Buying a hosting system is an ongoing partnership with your software provider and your hosting company and to compare if support is mandatory or not is kind of silly.

    For my money PEM is a well thought out hosting and application hosting solution. lxadmin is a panel.

  25. #25
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    I just started using HyperVM. It seems to be very reliable so far, and cost alot less than virtuozzo.
    Im currently on a budget, but if i were not, i still have to say, i would probobly use HyperVM. The only thing about it is virtuozzo is much more popular

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnuson56 View Post
    I just started using HyperVM. It seems to be very reliable so far, and cost alot less than virtuozzo.
    Im currently on a budget, but if i were not, i still have to say, i would probobly use HyperVM. The only thing about it is virtuozzo is much more popular
    HyperVM is a different type of product to Virtuozzo, they are not interchangeable. HyperVM compares to Parallels Infrastructure Manager which is a control panel to manage Virtuozzo VPS's. PIM has many more features than HyperVM from what I've seen of both.

    Virtuozzo is not a VPS management solution, it IS the VPS technology itself.
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    yes i know, i mis-spoke
    i was talking about VZZP vs HyperVM

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    Quote Originally Posted by magnuson56 View Post
    yes i know, i mis-spoke
    i was talking about VZZP vs HyperVM
    From a VPS users perspective I believe VZPP and HyperVM have similar functionality but VZPP looks cleaner in my opinion. I can't check as HyperVM demo is down again.

    From an admin perspective I believe PIM is superior, it's very powerful and it's just the first version.
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    Layershift Andrew it seems you support heavily Parallels products.

    Im a SW Soft client, will be a ex one very soon. I use almost all their products.

    Virtuozzo is just a nice interface and a heavy priced commercial solution you get from OpenVZ. Actually just put OpenVZ in a box, wrap it nicely and put a heavy price tag on it and you have Virtuozzo.

    If Parallels would have such a great technology they would for sure not base their whole system on open source. Virtuozzo is just OpenVZ exactly. They need to maintain the open source project since they cannot privately develop a great product but need collaboration from the hosting industries best programmers.

    That said, probably the best product Parallels owns and the one that have made them money is Virtuozzo. That means the only real good product they have being able to develop they did not developed but the open community did.

    All other products are closed so we cant comment on how those are. Well, they are a nightmare.

    Plesk is terrible on a business perspective. Its along time since it was rising for security and stability.

    The latest plesk releases have hundreds of bugs, are very easy to crack, have a very big lack of features most of the hosting industry already implemented. The prices are heavily high for their products and they just fill you up with Spam on the panel from their own products, like the Virtuozzo ad we all had to disable. This is something i will never tolerated on a company that makes you buy their product and then just violated every agreement you signed.

    The support is the worst one i have evenr seeing in a company not to mention the releases they make. Dont believe me? Just go the Sw Soft forums. All you see are complaints and bugs.

    Plesk still lacks of very basic features like it doesn't work with PostFix, uses Qmail that is a 11 year old mail server very outdated and requires a special team just to fix the bugs.

    It still doesnt have antivirus except the paid ones and doesn't support DomanKeys and other functions that are at leat 2 years in the market.

    Using plesk is just using old technology and giving a service that is crappy and old. Just ask how many providers using Plesk gives you Antivirus with their email accounts for free. They dont even mention that on the plans because the panel dont support free solutions from the box.

    People care about something that works. HyperVM works. LxAdmin works. And specially it has prices that let you basically overrun any hosting provider that sells the same plans but use Parallels products.

    It doesn't matter how much money you have, someone still has to pay for each Plesk and Virtuozzo license and that money doesn't come from the provider. That is a lie. It comes from the customer. He pays the license, not the hosting providers. They just build their plans and fix all in 1 single package including the licenses and hardware.

    Parallels has just increased their prices and so will be forced all companies that use their products. In return people that dont use Parallels products will have better prices.

    And Parallels products are not better. Cpanel is still the leader in their market after years. Plesk is second but never could be the standard like Cpanel is. You cannot even compare the features as a Sys admin with Plesk. Not even mention the plugins you have and features in Cpanel for end clients.

    As for Sitebuilder? There are hundreds of sitebuilders outhere. Its so funny how on each release Parallels just implements something that is just a copy you had on another software for months ago.

    PEM is a heavy overpriced product that just ties you forever to Parallels. Using PEM is like signing your dead sentence. They will eventually make PEM so it only supports their own products. Hosting is about choices. How will ever a company succeed if they just can use products from a single company?

    I can do everything with HyperVM that you can with Virtuozzo and even better i can run XEN VPS and Windows VPS on a single system. I can sell multiples VPS with multiples systems. Is that something Virtuozzo allows you? I dont think so.

    So i have the same technology you have and for 10 times cheaper. As for the nice graphics of Virtuozzo well its just a matter of making HyperVM nicer and Virtuozzo will have allot of problems.

    Just correct me, but what can Virtuozzo do you cant with OpenVZ? If we still compare things on a matter of choices and features i think HyperVM is a control panel and its has more and more choices each day. Today i can do more things that someone with Virtuozzo can.

    That is something i like, i dont see why i should be forced only to have 1 virtualization technology when there are systems like XEN and Vmware. Xen is far a better virtualization product for heavy production plans that require stability. Virtuozzo is more targeted to low VPS plans, mostly hosting plans, and with their high prices that is really a contradiction.

    I dont remember the product name but someone here on WHT had published a link to a PEM clone. Its like 50$ a month against the thousands of PEM and I took a look and was a very mature product. That just means someone can develop something that Parallels does but for a much lower price. That is what i call competition.

    And if your software provider like Parallels charges you large sums of money for something you get 10 times cheaper how can you then be able to compete? My clients dont care about if its Virtuozzo or Plesk or Cpanel or HyperVM. They just wants something that works, they dont even care about the name or from where it comes. They want something easy, that works and is powerfull, secure and stable.

    And once there was a time i said i would still pay the heavy prices from Sw Soft because it was a big company and had a great developing team and they could back me out. The more i investigated this company the more obscure things i discover.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    Just correct me, but what can Virtuozzo do you cant with OpenVZ?
    How about SLM-based memory policing rather than UBC?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seankoons View Post
    How about SLM-based memory policing rather than UBC?
    Wow what a funtion...

    Let me pay 5$ per VPS only for that.

    How about running Xen and OpenVz on the same node from the same control panel?

    How about that OpenVZ always runs on newer kernels then Virtuozzo?
    Last edited by nibb; 03-21-2008 at 10:13 PM.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    Wow what a funtion...

    Let me pay 5$ per VPS only for that.
    Have you actually used SLM-based VPS's or are you just basing your opinion off your sour OpenVZ experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    How about running Xen and OpenVz on the same node from the same control panel?
    Last I heard, that's not the smartest thing to do in a production environment and that setup is prone to crashing. Not that Virtuozzo on Windows is that great either, but I don't use or offer either so I can't really comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    How about that OpenVZ always runs on newer kernels then Virtuozzo?
    Are you even aware that OpenVZ is to Virtuozzo what Fedora is to RedHat? It doesn't sound like it to me that your aware of that little fact. OpenVZ is SWSoft's testing and development platform and is not really meant to be run in a commercial or production environment. Just because you choose to run it like so doesn't mean that's what it was meant for. So be prepared to deal with any and all "issues" that pop up. Those little "issues" can destroy hosting companies, especially those just starting out.

    For me, the price I pay for our Virtuozzo licenses is about 40% because of the product and 60% for that peace of mind knowing I have commercial backing and support for a product that I offer to clients.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by seankoons View Post
    Have you actually used SLM-based VPS's or are you just basing your opinion off your sour OpenVZ experience?



    Last I heard, that's not the smartest thing to do in a production environment and that setup is prone to crashing. Not that Virtuozzo on Windows is that great either, but I don't use or offer either so I can't really comment.



    Are you even aware that OpenVZ is to Virtuozzo what Fedora is to RedHat? It doesn't sound like it to me that your aware of that little fact. OpenVZ is SWSoft's testing and development platform and is not really meant to be run in a commercial or production environment. Just because you choose to run it like so doesn't mean that's what it was meant for. So be prepared to deal with any and all "issues" that pop up. Those little "issues" can destroy hosting companies, especially those just starting out.

    For me, the price I pay for our Virtuozzo licenses is about 40% because of the product and 60% for that peace of mind knowing I have commercial backing and support for a product that I offer to clients.
    You should read my earlier replies. I only use Parallels products. I have tested both and the vps are running Virtuozzo.

    I did not mean Linux Flavors, that is what you said like CentOS or Fedora. I mean the kernel versions and hardware support. Virtuozzo had problems running on AMD dual core CPUs just to mention one example.

    When I mean Xen and OpenVZ you should try HyperVM first. Nobody says to run it on the same node. You can have multiples nodes with different systems running in a central cluster with HyperVM.

    Thats fine for you, it 40% is enough for just the licenses. People seem to forget something. Virtuozzo or Plesk or any Parallels product is not the service. That is just the software. The service is still provided by the end hardware and the end people so you still have to add allot of costs besides just licenses. Putting Virtuozzo on a server and let it run by himself doesnt work for us. There is still allot of costs besides hardware that are needed for a VPS, just to mention backup and monitoring.

    Just because there is a big commercial company besides a product doesn't meant is better. If that where the case the hosting industry would run on Microsoft softwares and that is not the case, apache, php, mysql, postfix, etc, and other open source software are still the main stream.

    I dont say Virtuozzo is a bad product, i just say its not worth the money. And no, Parallels will not fix your VPS when something goes wrong at 3 AM, the support is terrible so don't expect to get something back just because you pay allot. Parallels just cares about one think, and that is money, once you have their products you are on your own. We had horrible experiences with there products just because we followed the main stream on doing what everyone else does and implementing virtuozzo and plesk as VPS.

    It took me 2 years to just accept Parallels products where not doing good. I was on denial because all the money that was paid and you i did not wanted to accept that a product so expensive just would be less then other products that you can get for free.

    Once you start investigating how the products really are implemented your eyes get wide open. As for Plesk you can get even a better panel with open source solutions.

    If Parallels is so good and the support is so great you can go to their forums and hear all nightmares. They dont even visit their own forums for years, some people even spam their forums. I know the forums are only there so share but i cannot imagine how a company cares less about people talking bad about their products. Besides some announces they make for big fixes they never reply the real problems.

    And if im suppose to have so much problems then i ratter go with OpenVZ at least the problems cost me nothing.
    Last edited by nibb; 03-21-2008 at 11:23 PM.

  34. #34
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    http://freepressblog.org/blog/2005/0...y-plesk-sucks/

    Please read comments at the end of the page.

    This is one story of many, many complaints Sw Soft has. The support think is true. They speak an english that is so bad that you will probably take more time to translate the problem and it takes to resolve it.

    And if they dont want to support you anymore they hang up on you. Going with Cpanel at least you have the security of doing jobs with a US company and they will support you with a perfect english speaking staff. Not to mention that SW Soft is based on a country where you will have allot of troubles to demand something legally in the future if you ever need to. They are like Pirates that are always there to take your money but always manage to disappear if there is a serious bug on their softwares.

    Thats why you will probably never see a major company using Parallels products. They have inhouse software or implement other solutions.

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    Just correct me, but what can Virtuozzo do you cant with OpenVZ?
    There was a time when people paid for Virtual Machine technology. For example, VMWare wanted to sell just the VM technology to users. That was their basic business plan. Now you have QEMU, Xen, OpenVZ all for free. You can't sell the VM platform alone. Just doesn't work. You need to sell management software and service/consulting around it, while keeping the base VM platform open. This is exactly what folks at Xensource/Citrix do. Top quality, stable, robust, virtualization technology is available as open source software. It is better developed that way due to the "more eye-balls, lesser bugs" phenomenon called peer-review. And this way you will also have multi-vendor cooperation leading to a better range of device drivers and inter-operability becoming available.

    Now coming to answering your question. Parallels does not have to create a different base VM platform from a business point of view. Their management system and marketing capability is what matters. But as a matter of fact, they do have some features that add value to the VM platform itself.

    When you use OpenVZ to create different VPSs, they all have different root file systems. All these root file systems are individual files and they have their own i-node numbers. What this means is, even if you have 10 VPSs based on the same template, the shared libraries( and other executables) inside the VPSs will not be shared *between* VPSs, even though they are identical. Shared libraries take up RAM. We are talking about a lot of RAM here. The Linux memory manger caches files based on their i-node numbers. Under a normal Linux, if you are running multiple Apache copies, for example, the executable code is still shared between these processes. What I'm trying to say is that it is not only shared libraries that conserve memory, applications are also 'shared' as much as possible.

    Under OpenVZ, since each VPS has its own copy of shared libraries and other executable files like Apache, MySQL, etc, they are all not shared *between* VPSs since their files are separate and thus have different i-node numbers. You can view a file's i-node number by using the "ls -li" command in Linux.


    Under Virtuozzo, however, there is a clever file-system called VZFS that fixes this i-node problem. All VPSs based on the same template "share" a common root file system. If a VPS makes local changes, the changes alone are preserved separately. SWSoft, among many other patents has a patent on VZFS. Since VZFS makes it look as if the same files are shared among VPSs, they are cached by the Linux memory manager only once. So, what this means is, for example, if you are running say CentOS5 template on 10 VPSs and those VPSs are all running Apache and MySQL, then they will all share code between themselves in a Virtuozzo environment. So, the density you get will be higher then with OpenVZ. In other words, you will be able to run more number of VPSs per hardware node.

    Sure, there are other advantages that I'll not talk about in this thread.

    Now why would I write good about a competitor's product? Well, its because you asked for it. :-) People need to be well informed about these things. But a better technology does not always solve problems when it come to money. What we have to see here, is whether the extra VPSs that you are able to run justify the licensing costs. For many running OpenVZ with a control panel available in the market will be much more cost effective. And of course, support is also *very* important.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    Layershift Andrew it seems you support heavily Parallels products.
    I want to reply to a few of your comments which are incorrect.

    - Virtuozzo is not the same as OpenVZ. I don't have time to elaborate but I'm sure if you search WHT there are many explanations.

    - You say they cannot privately maintain Virtuozzo, yet they did for years. OpenVZ was only launched around a year or so ago, prior to that it was developed in-house and Virtuozzo 3.0 was a great solution, so your comment "that means the only real good product they have being able to develop they did not developed but the open community did" is complete nonsense.

    "Plesk is terrible on a business perspective. Its along time since it was rising for security and stability."

    - Our end-users like Plesk. It is easy to understand, powerful enough and does not over-complicate things. Plesk is stable, and it can manage any versions of Apache/PHP/DBMS we wish to run, this is what we need. How long did CPanel take to support Apache 2? Do they even support it fully now? (I don't know the answer to the latter)

    "The latest plesk releases have hundreds of bugs, are very easy to crack, have a very big lack of features most of the hosting industry already implemented.

    - Show me how to crack Plesk, PM me if you prefer, and I'll be happy to discuss with you. I strongly suspect your comments about cracking Plesk are completely unfounded, and if not, don't be irresponsible and report it to Parallels.

    - Plesk has bugs, so does every other piece of software, but we run probably thousands of Plesk systems and have very little hassle managing all of the VPS's running the software. There are bugs, but they are easy to handle if you understand the product fully.

    "The prices are heavily high for their products and they just fill you up with Spam on the panel from their own products, like the Virtuozzo ad we all had to disable."

    - I strongly opposed this. We don't have any unwanted Parallels spam in our control panels. I fully agree that they should not have forced this upon us initially, but they were quick to rectify their mistakes.

    - Plesk for VPS and Dedicated is very affordable if you buy in bulk. Their pricing scales to meet the needs of almost every sized provider, and if you really don't buy enough buy Plesk via your provider for zero/small margins.

    "This is something i will never tolerated on a company that makes you buy their product and then just violated every agreement you signed."

    - They have not *ever* violated any agreement I made with them.

    "Plesk still lacks of very basic features like it doesn't work with PostFix, uses Qmail that is a 11 year old mail server very outdated and requires a special team just to fix the bugs."

    - Qmail works, and is stable. I fully agree we need a better solution though, and I have discussed this with Plesk development teams and management. They are fully aware of this problem and perhaps they will fix it.

    "It still doesnt have antivirus except the paid ones and doesn't support DomanKeys and other functions that are at leat 2 years in the market."

    - DomainKeys are something we are seeing asked for frequently. I'm sure they will add it soon.

    "Using plesk is just using old technology and giving a service that is crappy and old. Just ask how many providers using Plesk gives you Antivirus with their email accounts for free. They dont even mention that on the plans because the panel dont support free solutions from the box."

    - I hardly think the cost of Dr. Web is expensive. If you don't want to pay it use qmail-scanner with ClamAV, it's easy to use and well-supported by the Plesk community and qmail-scanner developers.

    "People care about something that works. HyperVM works. LxAdmin works. And specially it has prices that let you basically overrun any hosting provider that sells the same plans but use Parallels products."

    - There are many major fundamental differences between HyperVM/LxAdmin and Virtuozzo/Plesk.

    "It doesn't matter how much money you have, someone still has to pay for each Plesk and Virtuozzo license and that money doesn't come from the provider. That is a lie. It comes from the customer. He pays the license, not the hosting providers. They just build their plans and fix all in 1 single package including the licenses and hardware."

    - Of course end-users pay for it in the end, it would be stupid to assume otherwise. We pay for Parallels services as they work well for us, their support team (to us) are efficient and there when we need them. I've heard bad things about Parallels support, but I have not experienced any of them, and have been using Plesk since 2001, Virtuozzo since 2004/5, HSPcomplete and SiteBuilder since 2006.

    "PEM is a heavy overpriced product that just ties you forever to Parallels. Using PEM is like signing your dead sentence. They will eventually make PEM so it only supports their own products. Hosting is about choices. How will ever a company succeed if they just can use products from a single company?"

    - PEM (PSA) and Billing Manager have API's. You can integrate them with anything you want. Use your business sense and negotiate an acceptable contract for PEM so you are protected.

    "I dont remember the product name but someone here on WHT had published a link to a PEM clone. Its like 50$ a month against the thousands of PEM and I took a look and was a very mature product. That just means someone can develop something that Parallels does but for a much lower price. That is what i call competition."

    - I don't remember the name either, but if it's the product I'm thinking of it has a long long way to go to catch up with PEM.

    I have used Parallels/SWsoft/PleskInc products for around 7 years now and I am still more than satisfied with them. Of course they have problems, serious ones from time-to-time, but they do fix them and Parallels products and services have proven to me to work for my business and to be a trusted supplier and partner.
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  37. #37
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    I find it interesting that Parallels neglects Plesk but yet apparently takes care of it's Virtuozzo products(and their customers). Can anyone elaborate on the responsiveness of their Virtuozzo products? Specifically in terms of turn around time for bug issues and the like. For plesk, they let huge security holes sit for months.

  38. #38
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    *

    Quote Originally Posted by amex View Post
    I find it interesting that Parallels neglects Plesk but yet apparently takes care of it's Virtuozzo products(and their customers). Can anyone elaborate on the responsiveness of their Virtuozzo products? Specifically in terms of turn around time for bug issues and the like. For plesk, they let huge security holes sit for months.
    One recent example I can think of is the recent vmsplice kernel exploit. I reported it to them pretty much as it became public, an hour later they began testing it and discovered it wasn't possible to escalate privileges but was possible to make a node unstable using it. They escalated to their kernel developers who began their investigations a few hours later, then they patched, tested and published the new kernel in around 3 days IIRC.

    In my experience they have a very proficient team of kernel developers working on the product. For any serious issues they get them fixed very quickly, much quicker than Plesk development team in this regard but then they are very different products.
    Last edited by Layershift Andrew; 03-24-2008 at 09:30 PM.
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  39. #39
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    Good to hear it works for you. Its seems your clients are not very demanding. You answered and confirmed most of the things yourself.

    Plesk bugs? I think i mentioned a few, you need others?

    Have about this issue they have in 8.2 with the hour system?

    Its a complete mess. We needed to change hours on a few servers and plesk configured the time on all servers to the future in 2008 when it still was 2007, it was a mess. Almost every server died because of license checks. Not to mention other software which had running licenses checks by time. This is a confirmed plesk bug.

    How about the migration issue for latin characters in mysql databases?

    When you migrate a plesk account from 1 server to another plesk server, they can be the same version for that purpose or not, the mysql databases with latin codes like or accents are corrupted. This doesn't happen if you do it with PhpmyAdmin or directly via SSH or for that purpose with other panels. Plesk manages to replace databases with UTF-8 on migration. This makes plesk migration in non english sites that use databases useless. This is also a serious bug that is running 2 years now. I have not seem any fix for this in 2 years. So dont say they fix things quickly. Go to the forums, you will find a few hundred bugs complaints some of them very serious. Im not a programmer, im sure others will find more but thats what i expected from them. They should fix this things, not me, if i where a programmer i would develop my own solution.

    Sure, you are right. All the softwares have bugs. I can live with that but if I pay a company money, what is my money for? Its suppose to give me solutions, they should fix bugs, put customers requests as priority and give me support for it. Its a shame a software that costs as much as 1.200$ per server is not more stable then 400$ softwares. Thats is why I complain. Bugs we all have. But i dont think their SAAS communist model will work. If they think they can rip me off money each month they are wrong. Not a wonder why a Russian company tries to force a communist model on their clients. They cannot even speak 4 words of English on the phone or put people as priority. Maybe they care about you but it seems most of us are just numbers on a excel sheet.

    Software is software only. Nothing more. They dont pay the hardware nor the bandwidth required to run the softwares. I pay that. One of the reasons someone wants to own a software is not to be slaved into monthly fees. They have realized that most people dont pay the SUS upgrade fees because the plesk updates are pathetic. They list bug fixes as new features on each release. People are not stupid. Why would someone upgrade and pay allot of money if those are the upgrades they make?

    With their SAAS model they will probably not launch anymore upgrades but still get every month the money. I dont see how i have to pay a % of my income i earned with my clients each month to Parallels. If they want that money they should work for it. Make better the software and make upgrades so people are attracted to pay for upgrades. Their communist model of ripping us all with a forced monthly fee and not be able to own the licenses but ratter give them a % based on amount is just what people of this world are against. They have found a fast way to make money this way.

    Thats why i will go with a US company developer of softwares. People will regret the day they choose Parallels. They will be in their hands forever and forced to pay them high fees each month based on their customers base. They already do this with Virtuozzo and charge per container. Why would they care how many VPS accounts you have on a server? They don't pay the server. And the software for running it is still one no matter if the node has 1 customer of 30. They make this so they can ripe you a license cost per each customer you have. Thats why they want the whole world to virtualize their hosting firms. So instead of paying 1 license per server you will pay per account. And now with their SAAS model it gets work. You will end paying per customer and monthly. So they will have all the hosting companies in the world paying them monthly fees based on their grow. You have 100 customers you pay 100 licenses, you have 10.0000s you pay that number. And still they only have to develop the software once, not matter how many people use it. Its a clever system they want to impose. I call it a communist model. Slavery. I think we all have enough bills. It doesn't cost them more to have 1000 companies running their software then 100000000. Its the same for them since they dont give nothing personal like support for it, they dont even pay the costs for running it. So they want a big share of the hosting industry just for using the software, and its not even good enough for that purpose. Its like a tax on the hosting industry. Remember something Benjamin Franklin said "Beware of little expenses. A small leak will sink a great ship."

    Im dropping Parallels since I know exactly where they are pointing. And they are not going to enslave my business to pay them each month high fees for absolutely nothing. Parallels is a communist company. No wonder their are based on Moscow and their favorite color is red or to mention their business ethics is exactly like that regime was.

  40. #40
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    Dear nibb,

    You should be more polite with your mention. You talk about "communism", "red" etc. and forgot that business is business and it is not depend what country it based. Based on your mention why you pay for domain renewal fee? Is not be more logical just pay once and get your domain name forever and for free?
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