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Thread: Spam Appliance

  1. #1

    Spam Appliance

    Hi,
    Can anyone please advise on a suitable spam filtering appliance with a budget of approximately 5000 - we have looked at Mail Foundry but we need the ability to cluster / load balance from the perspective that if unit gives up the ghost we cannot have clients without email for 2-4 days whilst a new unit is shipped over.

    Admittadly the mail foundry appliance can do "failover" but it would require having to manage 2 units identically which is something we cannot do as it would require too much administrative effort.

    The unit must have a similar feature set to the Mail Foundry Appliance.

    Can Anyone recommend a unit?

    Thanks,
    Silicon Computing
    Computer Repair Manchester

  2. #2
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    what volume of mail are we talking about? how many backend servers, mailboxes and total message volume?

    how important is message quarantine storage on the appliance for you?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by uptimearchive View Post
    what volume of mail are we talking about? how many backend servers, mailboxes and total message volume?

    how important is message quarantine storage on the appliance for you?
    The volume of mails not exceptionally high at all but we want a system for 2500+ users (All going to be SMB's of under 10 users)

    Quarantine is quite useful but we wouldnt want mails held for over a week.

    Thanks,
    Silicon Computing
    Computer Repair Manchester

  4. #4
    Just a note ive looked at barracuda but its not cost effective.

    Mail foundry seems the way to go but it's not got clustering yet.
    Silicon Computing
    Computer Repair Manchester

  5. #5
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    You can find some more information on this with a search, but as I noted in another thread, the lack of clustering / failover support for Mail Foundry is what is putting us off purchasing it. They told me it would be supported by December 2007 but that's come and gone with no clustering appearing. We also looked at Baracuda and Iron Port but none of those solutions are viable due to the physical user limit cap and the Baracuda filtering isn't up to much compared to Mail Foundry.

    - Chris
    Chris Adams - CEO - Rochen Ltd. - chris (at) rochen (dot) com

    Now offering both US & UK premium business hosting, reseller hosting and managed virtualized services.
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  6. #6
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    why don't you purchase two or more of the mailfoundry appliances, this appears to be within your budget. You could either use multiple mx records to distribute mail across them for load balancing and redundancy, or you could use a simple L4 load balancing for a more transparent implementation.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by uptimearchive View Post
    why don't you purchase two or more of the mailfoundry appliances, this appears to be within your budget. You could either use multiple mx records to distribute mail across them for load balancing and redundancy, or you could use a simple L4 load balancing for a more transparent implementation.
    This doesn't work properly becuase you then end up with multiple daily digest reports from each of the Mail Foundry appliances, they need to be configured independently etc. Mail Foundry keep saying clustering support is coming, to address these type of issues, but it never appears.

    - Chris
    Chris Adams - CEO - Rochen Ltd. - chris (at) rochen (dot) com

    Now offering both US & UK premium business hosting, reseller hosting and managed virtualized services.
    rochen.com | rochen.co.uk | blog.rochen.com | forums.rochen.com | Twitter: @rochenhost

  8. #8
    Greetings:

    Mail Foundry will be coming out with clustering over the next few months based on our talks with their support team.

    Thank you.
    ---
    Peter M. Abraham
    LinkedIn Profile

  9. #9
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    I know about this message digest issue, which is why i asked how important quarantine was for this application. Sending message digests is kind of.... stupid, they will become just as annoying as spam, and if the end-user is going to read through digest messages for legit messages, how is that any different than just searching their inbox.

    You could just tag the messages as spam on the mailfoundry and sort them yourself on the servers with filtering rules... to avoid storing and digesting them on the mailfoundrys... at least until which times they have clustering, but i still think digests are not very useful.. but the big advantage of mailfoundry is that its not suppose to catch legit mail, and they claim they catch 1 in 1 million...

  10. #10
    Our SMB's shouldnt require the load balancing but from a failover perspective this is something we require.

    We are considering 1 mail foundry appliance with a secondary standalone server running an open source spam filter which would act in place in the interim between the unit going down and the replacement unit being shipped out and installed.

    The clients are not likely to mind a small volume of spam for 2 days whilst the new unit is delivered but it would be nice to find a true solution.

    Does anyone have any recommendations as to what open source / unix or windows based spam filters we could use as a secondary "backup"?

    This would probably be left blocked until the mail foundry unit fell over in which case we would "turn it on".

    Thanks,
    Silicon Computing
    Computer Repair Manchester

  11. #11
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    what is wrong with having the two mailfoundrys. You can purchase two of them within your budget and the only downside you have is handling actual spam, which you have options 1. live with two digest messages, 2. don't use digest messages at all, just accept that mailfoundry will not block legit mail and blackhole it into an unattended quarantine. 3. dont store mail on the mailfoundry just add a header so that the back-end server or mail client can put it into a spam folder. I think its a perfect solution, and it has the upgrade path of going to clustering when mailfoundry comes out with that.

    An important thing not to forget here, mailfoundry is mapping and remembering mappings of all your domains and which back-end servers handle the mail, this is done in real-time with auto-domains.... so switching over to a totally different system if the mailfoundry dies, how will it know where to route mail. Unless you have one back-end server, you did not answer that question before.

  12. #12
    The problem with two mail foundrys is having to setup both units.

    The idea is we will put clients on this appliance and they will then administer their own domains. If they make changes we cannot make them replicate them twice over as there are likely to be mismatches (from what we understood from speaking with Adam Clancy this is what we would have to do).

    The back end is going to be different servers, mainly exchange. Each client having different server addresses depending on domain.

    With the backup totally different system we would have to deal with the administrative effort of mirroring the configuration as to which back end server each domain goes to.

    I will discuss the above with my colleague's and feed back shortly.

    Thanks for everyones input.
    Silicon Computing
    Computer Repair Manchester

  13. #13
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    You're all of course forgetting that you then need to make sure that all settings are the same on both boxes, for all domains - Customers aren't going to like having to make settings twice, if they wish to tweak anything, it's an admin nightmare, I can see why the OP wouldn't want to go down that route - as it's what has stopped us using them as well.
    Karl Austin :: KDA Web Services Ltd.
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  14. #14
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    Check out CanIT, they can be clustered together (around a shared Postgres database).

    I have dealt with installing the software on a customer's servers, but I think they will also do the installation for you or send you appliances if you want them to handle it all.

    http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products
    Tranquil Hosting

  15. #15
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    mailfoundry has a regular backup process to their servers that contains all the configuration data, I still recommend mailfoundry over alternatives, and your budget allows you to fully purchase a spare for the event of a prolonged failure. This spare would also only be "dead weight" until clustering firmware was released. You could place a simple exim backup exchanger that would collect mail and only redeliver it to the mailfoundry (once it came back online).

    what settings do you expect users to want to modify?

    I do not work for mailfoundry, I have no other association with mailfoundry, but I have been exposed to their system both as an administrator and as an end-user customer, and I have been exposed to other systems that have been mentioned on the forums here, and it is still my recommendation that you continue to consider the mailfoundry.

  16. #16
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    Why not just run something like the SpamTitan appliance in VMWare, make sure the VM is backed up and keep a spare server that you could power it up on within a few minutes in the event of a failure?
    Kris - nitrohosting.net
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    Great value shared hosting & ADSL.
    PM/Email for no-obligation quotes.

  17. #17
    Does the spam Titan solution allow you to create domain administrators and delegate control of certain domains to these users?

    I have requested a quotation off of Can-It for their CanIt Domain Pro. This looks to be the best solution in terms of scalability but Im concerned about potential costs and support out of hours.

    I will look into running 1 offline mail foundry unit and restore the offline unit in the event of a failure and bring it online.

    My only concern now is that it looks like they (Mail Foundry) hold the backups - in the event of changing the unit over will I be able to quickly gain access to this backup and restore to the new unit?

    Thanks,
    Silicon Computing
    Computer Repair Manchester

  18. #18
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    Does the spam Titan solution allow you to create domain administrators and delegate control of certain domains to these users?
    Yes

    http://www.spamtitan.com/antispam-news.php?id=12
    Kris - nitrohosting.net
    Premium Dell Windows/Linux dedicated servers in London
    Great value shared hosting & ADSL.
    PM/Email for no-obligation quotes.

  19. #19
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    Have a look at Maia mailguard. The user interface is a little immature, but with a little bit of skinning it'd make an excellent and cost effective choice.

  20. #20
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  21. #21
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    Does any body know how much is Roaring Penguin Get CanIt is? Is it per user or per server?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Mishi View Post
    Does any body know how much is Roaring Penguin Get CanIt is? Is it per user or per server?
    The quote i got as for per appliance so....

    However i don't really know if going with spam appliances are the right solution anymore with messagelabs/mxlogic/mxforce/postini offering such cheap pricing.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by RossH View Post
    The quote i got as for per appliance so....

    However i don't really know if going with spam appliances are the right solution anymore with messagelabs/mxlogic/mxforce/postini offering such cheap pricing.
    I was gonna say the same thing but going a step further..why not outsource your whole operation ? 2500 users shouldn't cost more than 1300$ per month for everything: hosting/bandwidth/spam filtering/webmail, etc

  24. #24
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    High End Anti-Spam solutions versus open source code for Appliances

    catharsis3k,

    What you say is true however a couple of things that I like to confess:
    1. We have been a happy reseller of Postini solutions for along time. However we found that Google is screwing every reseller by selling the solutions directly to public under the cost. That is not good and eventually will catch up with all resellers.
    2. The appliance capabilities are already available in open source form which in which could become an alternate solution than higher end ones for thrifty customer (of course you get what you pay for). Based on our experience most of these open source programs work fine as long as the small customers do not need all the bells and whisles.

    In conclusion I would agree with what you said as long as these quality providers do not screw up the reseller channel which has not been the case (sad story for us resellers). If the open source community is support well enough it will force large providers like Google, etc. to stop screwing their resellers and appreciate what we do for them. My 2wo cents.

    Regards,

  25. #25
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    Re: Roaring Pen. pricing

    HostExchange,

    We are going to evaluate Roaring Penguin as well. Their literature seems very promising however I am concerned about their pricing as well. Keep in mind that they sponsor the open source version that is called MimeDefang but not sure if it has the domain administrator delegation as well as a nice web based interface. Does anybody know before I dig for more information? Also has any body had any experience with the following:
    http://www.maiamailguard.com

    Thanks,

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mishi View Post
    HostExchange,

    We are going to evaluate Roaring Penguin as well. Their literature seems very promising however I am concerned about their pricing as well. Keep in mind that they sponsor the open source version that is called MimeDefang but not sure if it has the domain administrator delegation as well as a nice web based interface. Does anybody know before I dig for more information? Also has any body had any experience with the following:
    http://www.maiamailguard.com

    Thanks,
    Been using Maia in production for several years now. The effectiveness is as good or better than most commercial solutions. Easily scalable. The support community is very active and responsive as well.

    Good luck with whatever you choose...
    Fast Serv Networks, LLC | AS29889 | Fully Managed Cloud, Streaming, Dedicated Servers, Colo by-the-U
    Since 2003 - Ashburn VA + San Diego CA Datacenters

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastServ View Post
    Been using Maia in production for several years now. The effectiveness is as good or better than most commercial solutions. Easily scalable. The support community is very active and responsive as well.

    Good luck with whatever you choose...
    Fastserv,

    Thanks for your comment. I think so far Maia is worth taking a close look at.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by catharsis3k View Post
    I was gonna say the same thing but going a step further..why not outsource your whole operation ? 2500 users shouldn't cost more than 1300$ per month for everything: hosting/bandwidth/spam filtering/webmail, etc
    That is a pretty ignorant statement and you can take it the entire other way. At your own logic why buy a solution, why not build your own? Take it a step further, why buy the hardware when you can build it, etc.

  29. #29
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    Does anyone who is using one of the outsourced solutions know how they handle aliases? Google is offering Postini for $3 per user per year. I am wondering if each alias is also considered a user.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by RossH View Post
    That is a pretty ignorant statement and you can take it the entire other way. At your own logic why buy a solution, why not build your own? Take it a step further, why buy the hardware when you can build it, etc.
    actually your statement is pretty ignorant.

    My suggestion was meant to lower his costs and improve his service. A dedicated e-mail provider will offer him that.

    Your suggestion does nothing by sharply increase his costs AND make him responsible for areas he shouldn't bother with ( ie. hardware manufacture ).

  31. #31

    Spamsolution of SpamExperts

    responding to: Does anyone who is using one of the outsourced solutions know how they handle aliases? Google is offering Postini for $3 per user per year. I am wondering if each alias is also considered a user.


    Hey scooby2,

    SpamExperts spamexperts.com offers hosted as well as dedicated solutions which are the most price-competitive professional spamfiltering solutions out there as far as I know. There affordable prices result from a different billing approach; not on a per-user basis but instead on a per-domain basis.

    Cheers,
    Sam

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mishi
    We have been a happy reseller of Postini solutions for along time. However we found that Google is screwing every reseller by selling the solutions directly to public under the cost. That is not good and eventually will catch up with all resellers.
    I noticed this as well. Not sure what the thinking is here but I intend to ask our rep how he expects to keep our business if we can buy Postini + GMail direct for practically the same thing we're paying for bulk filtering.

    Quote Originally Posted by scooby2
    Does anyone who is using one of the outsourced solutions know how they handle aliases? Google is offering Postini for $3 per user per year. I am wondering if each alias is also considered a user.
    Aliases that forward to an existing user account are not charged.

    Brandon

  33. #33
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    Look at SpamTitan. Its very good value, I only have experience of it with <100 users but it is supposed to scale well. It has been absolutely brilliant in the 6 months we've had it. Give them a call.

    www.spamtitan.com

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by cbtrussell View Post
    I noticed this as well. Not sure what the thinking is here but I intend to ask our rep how he expects to keep our business if we can buy Postini + GMail direct for practically the same thing we're paying for bulk filtering.
    Brandon
    Except you pay upfront for 12 months and have to spend a minimum $1500 + $450 for phone support. Secondly, only Premier comes with Gmail and Postini, the $3 price is for stand alone services like your current service provider platform.

  35. #35
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    Email Appliances versus Postini or similar providers

    Per our last Webinar Postini's rep completely ignored any concerns and questions regarding Google selling directly to public. Per our recent research we find that for some applications (e.g. dedicate mail gateways) building our own systems with open source products is a much wiser choice than even buying appliances. Postini or companies like them have been using these open source technologies quite nicely but at the same time that they are abusing their resellers the open source technologies are going through their own development that even outperform the commercial solutions.

  36. #36
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    I've been testing Netcleanse for the past while -- it does a pretty awesome job at what it does .
    Simpli Networks, LLC :: http://www.simplinetworks.com :: Proudly 100% Owned.
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  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Mishi View Post
    Per our last Webinar Postini's rep completely ignored any concerns and questions regarding Google selling directly to public. Per our recent research we find that for some applications (e.g. dedicate mail gateways) building our own systems with open source products is a much wiser choice than even buying appliances. Postini or companies like them have been using these open source technologies quite nicely but at the same time that they are abusing their resellers the open source technologies are going through their own development that even outperform the commercial solutions.
    OK, so you have figured out how to use open source. Obviously this key to any service, why reinvent the wheel when OS has it done and you can put your own wrapper around it. Was that not why you chose Postini in the first place?

    What Google has chosen to do, has nothing to do on how your run your business. Abusing resellers? Please, if this is all you have to say, then you really do not understand the whole picture. There are plenty of opportunities in having Google, powered by Postini than you may realize.

    As for selling to the public? Look around a bit, there are plenty of companies paying 5k a year to join Google's Enterprise services. Why? Because the public will always need help and do everyday.

    Postini provided you with the training wheels to grow your company and now you have the skills to move on and spread your wings. So why do you disparage a company who had the service you needed?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mripguru View Post
    I've been testing Netcleanse for the past while -- it does a pretty awesome job at what it does .
    How does the licensing for Netcleanse work? Is it simply a case of a per filtering server fee or is it a per user fee? One of the things which attracted us to Mail Foundry was that there wasn't any per user fee. As soon as a per user fee comes in then it doesn't make it viable to deploy for all users as a standard feature.

    - Chris
    Chris Adams - CEO - Rochen Ltd. - chris (at) rochen (dot) com

    Now offering both US & UK premium business hosting, reseller hosting and managed virtualized services.
    rochen.com | rochen.co.uk | blog.rochen.com | forums.rochen.com | Twitter: @rochenhost

  39. #39
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    Hi Chris,

    They (unlike many other companies) will work with you on such points - I suggest you drop them an e-mail/give them a call and see what you can work out with them.

    I can give you the name/# for a rep. that I work with over there if you like, just drop me a PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rochen View Post
    How does the licensing for Netcleanse work? Is it simply a case of a per filtering server fee or is it a per user fee? One of the things which attracted us to Mail Foundry was that there wasn't any per user fee. As soon as a per user fee comes in then it doesn't make it viable to deploy for all users as a standard feature.

    - Chris
    Simpli Networks, LLC :: http://www.simplinetworks.com :: Proudly 100% Owned.
    Providing Affordable Managed Cloud/VPS Servers & Server Management Solutions.
    We offer REAL 24x7x365 in-house support - proudly serving our customers since 2005!
    Want to learn more? Give us a call - +1 (844) 4SIMPLI or email sales[@]simplinetworks.com today!

  40. #40
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    Have you considered using a spam filtering service instead? With a service you don't have to buy anything or maintain it.

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