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Thread: WHT Unlimited?

  1. #1
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    WHT Unlimited?

    WHT has always taken a hard stand with providers offering unlimited and unmetered services.

    Are these offerings now commonplace and understood well enough that we should allow them here?
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    The people who get suckered in by "unlimited" offers are pretty much all those who do not frequent this forum; so I think that the rule achieves nothing, but in spirit and principal is a good one.

    We all know bad reviews here on WHT carry a lot of weight; especially if the hosting company concerned advertises here. If an offer of "unlimited" resources is not fulfilled, a bad review that describes this would certainly be effective if the offer was received via a WHT posting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    WHT has always taken a hard stand with providers offering unlimited and unmetered services.

    Are these offerings now commonplace and understood well enough that we should allow them here?
    Have you seen some of the offers lately? They might as well be unlimited.

    I say Yes - but put a disclaimer in the rules that reminds everyone that there is no such thing as unlimited space or bandwidth - and they purchase hosting here at their own risk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Edwards View Post
    The people who get suckered in by "unlimited" offers are pretty much all those who do not frequent this forum; so I think that the rule achieves nothing, but in spirit and principal is a good one.

    We all know bad reviews here on WHT carry a lot of weight; especially if the hosting company concerned advertises here. If an offer of "unlimited" resources is not fulfilled, a bad review that describes this would certainly be effective if the offer was received via a WHT posting.
    That's a good point, Jamie.

    By not allowing unlimited offers, we're restricting the feedback from consumers on those providers.
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    Unmetered and Unlimited are completely different things. I would expand the rules to say that if you advertise Unmetered then you must clearly state a limit that the bandwidth is capped at in Mbits.

    Unlimited is a scam. Why would you want promote a scam?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WII-Aaron View Post
    Unmetered and Unlimited are completely different things.
    From what I've seen, they appear to be one in the same.

    The difference is, "unmetered" explains in better detail what the limit is.

    I think consumers have come to realize that nothing is unlimited. That there will be limits on anything.

    What about all the offers with unlimited emails and databases? Surely there's a clause in a provider's TOS that states there is a limit on such things.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    What about all the offers with unlimited emails and databases? Surely there's a clause in a provider's TOS that states there is a limit on such things.
    Yeah, I noticed most hosting companies gives out unlimited emails, databases, etc even for the smallest plans.
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    i believe unlimited space and transfer should be allowed. it is not a scam if you do it appropriately. many big providers are starting to offer unlimited space and transfer now eg yahoo. i believe unlimited will be more popular than ever. if unlimited is a scam then overselling is a scam too and should not be allowed here too.

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    Agree and well Said Aaron!

    Quote Originally Posted by WII-Aaron View Post
    Unmetered and Unlimited are completely different things. I would expand the rules to say that if you advertise Unmetered then you must clearly state a limit that the bandwidth is capped at in Mbits.

    Unlimited is a scam. Why would you want promote a scam?

  10. #10
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    How about allowing it, with a stickied topic explaining what unmetered and unlimited actually means?

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    If you offer 10000000000GB, and I insist and have used up 10000000000GB and still ask for 10000000000GB, how do you provide it to me? And this is no unlimited in the first place, they re finite. Overselling is not a scam as because there is still a limit, unlimited is a scam because there is nothing unlimited in this world , hard disk as well as bandwidth.

    Quote Originally Posted by hcn View Post
    i believe unlimited space and transfer should be allowed. it is not a scam if you do it appropriately. many big providers are starting to offer unlimited space and transfer now eg yahoo. i believe unlimited will be more popular than ever. if unlimited is a scam then overselling is a scam too and should not be allowed here too.

  12. #12
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    For unlimited I just need two things to be convinced.

    1. Unlimited bandwidth pipe
    2. Unlimited hard disk size capacity

    Those who are for unlimited please show this to me, esecially tell me which seagate etc hard disk model.

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    Unmetered is when you have a 10mbps for eg you squeeze in your clients, best effort basis.

    Unlimited is telling your client that whatever you use there is still more because it is like God's love which is infinite.

    It is not just a matter of better details but fundamental differences.

    Unlimited emails and databases are normally within the context of web and email space, I give you 1 GB of web space how many database can you put in? I give you 1 GB of email space how many email accounts can you put in?

    The size of the space is already a good limiting factor

    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    From what I've seen, they appear to be one in the same.

    The difference is, "unmetered" explains in better detail what the limit is.

    I think consumers have come to realize that nothing is unlimited. That there will be limits on anything.

    What about all the offers with unlimited emails and databases? Surely there's a clause in a provider's TOS that states there is a limit on such things.

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    How about maintaining status quo that unlimitd should not be accepted since you are selling something that is non existence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan L View Post
    How about allowing it, with a stickied topic explaining what unmetered and unlimited actually means?

  15. #15
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    How about this:

    Allow unlimited - but make them clearly and prominently state CPU limitations or other factors that might cause them not to be able to use the full "unlimited" resource.
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    Quote Originally Posted by boonchuan View Post
    If you offer 10000000000GB, and I insist and have used up 10000000000GB and still ask for 10000000000GB, how do you provide it to me? And this is no unlimited in the first place, they re finite. Overselling is not a scam as because there is still a limit, unlimited is a scam because there is nothing unlimited in this world , hard disk as well as bandwidth.
    your sentence does not make any sense because if i offer 10000000000GB then this is overselling (as you say there is a limit) and since you concluded that overselling is not a scam; how is this not ascam?

  17. #17
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    The issue is unlimited does not exist yet despite current technology, we are allowing vendors to sell imaginery unlimited space with finite CPU limitations, won't that be strange?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nick H View Post
    How about this:

    Allow unlimited - but make them clearly and prominently state CPU limitations or other factors that might cause them not to be able to use the full "unlimited" resource.

  18. #18
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    You are overselling, but still you can built a 10000000000GB SAN or mayb take over Google datacentre, this is still achievable. You can be bankrupt or claim trade frustrations as a basic for not providing but theoretically it can be provided But unlimited, even if you take over Google, Microsoft and the datacentres of the entire world you will not be able to fulfull it.

    Also overselling I am putting out an extreme example, it can be selling 1000 accounts of 1 GB when you have only 500 GB of hard disk, worse come you can add in another 500 GB server, does that makes more sense to you now?

    For unlimited how many servers are needed? Infinite and Infinity does not exist!



    Quote Originally Posted by hcn View Post
    your sentence does not make any sense because if i offer 10000000000GB then this is overselling (as you say there is a limit) and since you concluded that overselling is not a scam; how is this not ascam?

  19. #19
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    Servers have limited resources. But resources from several servers is unlimited.

    If the world had more demand than supply then space in data centers would be selling at prices higher than prime real estate in New York or London.

    Therefore 'unlimited' is indeed possible but it depends on what context it is used.

  20. #20
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    Finite + Finite = Finite, there is no physics that can result from finite quantity becoming infinite or unlimited.

    Even Google, The size of Google's search system is presently unknown; the best estimates place the total number of the company's servers at 450 000, is this figure finite or infinite, even if I add 450 000 000 000 000 000 is it finite or infinite.


    Quote Originally Posted by RajanUrs View Post
    Servers have limited resources. But resources from several servers is unlimited.

    If the world had more demand than supply then space in data centers would be selling at prices higher than prime real estate in New York or London.

    Therefore 'unlimited' is indeed possible but it depends on what context it is used.

  21. #21
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    I am not in favour of term "unlimited" but then if you think its becoming a common place, make a rule the poster should begin the post with first line as:

    Statutory Warning: There is no such thing like unlimited, it could be harmful to your website/business.

    Exactly like above bold, red and should be first line/para.
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    Quote Originally Posted by boonchuan View Post
    Finite + Finite = Finite, there is no physics that can result from finite quantity becoming infinite or unlimited.

    Even Google, The size of Google's search system is presently unknown; the best estimates place the total number of the company's servers at 450 000, is this figure finite or infinite, even if I add 450 000 000 000 000 000 is it finite or infinite.
    Look at this way....the world will make infinite number of servers for infinite period.

    As I said it all depends in what context you call it infinite and finite.
    Last edited by RajanUrs; 02-05-2008 at 02:33 PM.

  23. #23
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    To be honest I have not looked at an unlimited host's site in years. But the ones I remember use to have a clause in their AUP/TOS about your storage space had to be used for your website pages and images and no file downloading or image hosting or backing up your hard drive etc.

    To me those hosts were not really a scam because one out of 10,000 or so sites could ever use that much space without breaking the TOS. To me I don't see too much difference in these plans below and unlimited... But by the rules they would be allowed.

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    When I first joined WHT I am impressed by the rigidness of the rules, the willingness to protect the newbies from the unscrupulous who would promise the heavens and the stars just to receive payment and disappear.

    Unlimited sounds extremely attractive. Yes there is a lot of hosts doing the unlimited thingy but with tons of hidden clauses for the unsuspecting.

    Are we deviating from protecting our members and allowing for unlimited just because unlimited is being sold outside? Unlimited space and unlimited bandwidth alike.

    I only believe in one context, and that is truth. True to yourself and true to members. I do not even see the need to debate what is essentially not possible theoretically and practically. I think I had said what I need to say and I do not wish to keep repeating myself.

    I will keep out of this thread henceforth.

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    I think you guys were confused between unlimited and unmetered. They are two different things!

    1. Unlimited: as others said, there are nothing unlimited, so no need to discuss more!
    2. Unmetered: it just means that there are "No Overages" on bandwidth usage. Nothing else!
    If mods will going to make rules for unmetered bandwidth, I would ask to consider these things: there are two kinds of unmetered bandwidth: Shared and Dedicated.

    - If the provider offer "shared Bandwdith", they NEED to say it's being shared and stating how much bandwidth can expect to have per month. Ex: 100Mbps Unmetered Shared Bandwidth/Port (expect 3TB-5TB bandwidth per month).
    - If the provider offer "Dedicated Bandwidth", they just need to state the port speed. Ex: 20Mbps Dedicated Unmetered Bandwdith/Port.

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  26. #26
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    I've always been against allowing unlimited hosting offers here and still feel the same way. The second we start allowing unlimited offers to be posted here, the shared offers forum will be flooded with them. The majority of newbie users here will flock to those ads and the legitimate, well intentioned small hosts will be weeded out. As much as people want to believe that many people wont fall for it, they will. As the slogan of WHT goes, WHT is "the largest, most influential web hosting community on the Internet." What we do here wont only affect the safety of ours users, but also tons of other websites who see what we do here as an example of market standards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hcn View Post
    i believe unlimited space and transfer should be allowed. it is not a scam if you do it appropriately. many big providers are starting to offer unlimited space and transfer now eg yahoo. i believe unlimited will be more popular than ever. if unlimited is a scam then overselling is a scam too and should not be allowed here too.
    You must be one of those people who like to sell 10TB for $1. Why don't you define to us your interpretation of "appropriately".

    SoftwareRevue - In my opinion, I think WHT should ban and delete ANY advertisements in the forums which use the word "unlimited" when referring to bandwidth and storage. Maybe this way it will get the message across to the masses that this unlimited stuff is going overboard, and will help to put a stop to or control it more.
    Last edited by subzer0; 02-05-2008 at 03:01 PM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starsky
    In my opinion, I think WHT should ban and delete ANY advertisements in the forums which use the word "unlimited" when referring to bandwidth and storage. Maybe this way it will get the message across to the masses that this unlimited stuff is going overboard, and will help to put a stop to or control it more.
    Don't worry, we're already doing that.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by boonchuan View Post
    ... Unlimited emails and databases are normally within the context of web and email space, I give you 1 GB of web space how many database can you put in? ...
    But that's not what you're selling me. If you offer me unlimited mysql databases, why can't I have them? Don't give me no gobbly gook about disk space usage. I purchased unlimited mysql databases!


    OK. The above could have been written 5 years ago. There was a time when consumers thought that unlimited meant unlimited. But I think consumers understand that there are limits now.

    Saying unlimited is like saying, "as much as you can fit within the plan details you purchased".

    Well then, what about bandwidth? If you sell me unlimited bandwidth, there are no boundaries.

    Oh. But there are the very boundaries we speak of in this thread. Server, pipes, users, etc.

    But again, unlimited is just another way of saying unmetered. It's just another way of saying, "use all that you can use up to the point that the technology you're confined to limits that use".

    I believe that most consumers understand this. I think we've done a good job in educating them. Now I think it's time to let them go out in the world and make up their own minds.
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  30. #30
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    The majority of newbie users here will flock to those ads and the legitimate, well intentioned small hosts will be weeded out.
    100000GB offers effectively do just that already. We're not really protecting anyone. Unlimited is just as present, it's just not called unlimited.

    When I first joined WHT I am impressed by the rigidness of the rules, the willingness to protect the newbies from the unscrupulous who would promise the heavens and the stars just to receive payment and disappear.
    I liked that about WHT too. But the market today is not the market 5 years ago. We're partially doing consumers a disservice by making "unlimited" a bad thing, because we're indirectly legitimizing any limited offer.

    As for the different meanings of unlimited and unmereted... in the shared hosting realm they do mean the same thing. Just like "bandwidth" means "data transfer". That's the way it is, even if outside the hosting world it's not.

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    I'm not going to name & shame, but I loved this on one of WHT's members sites:

    "Account Features: Unlimited"

    Yes we know that's not what they mean, but I just find it too funny
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  32. #32
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    In my opinion, If you allow hosts offering 2tb storage and 10tb Bandwidth, you might as well permit Unlimited plans and their hosts.

    My 2 cents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldcdc View Post
    100000GB offers effectively do just that already. We're not really protecting anyone. Unlimited is just as present, it's just not called unlimited.

    I liked that about WHT too. But the market today is not the market 5 years ago. We're partially doing consumers a disservice by making "unlimited" a bad thing, because we're indirectly legitimizing any limited offer.

    As for the different meanings of unlimited and unmereted... in the shared hosting realm they do mean the same thing. Just like "bandwidth" means "data transfer". That's the way it is, even if outside the hosting world it's not.
    100% Agree.

  34. #34
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    Unlimited is a funny word in general. I mean is there anything that is actually unlimited?

    Just like with web designers. I always see unlimited revisions If a designers gives "unlimited" revisions...two years down the road the poor guy could still be working with the client who paid $1500 for a site design.

    Unlimited in general is not a good word to mix with any business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevGuys View Post
    Unlimited in general is not a good word to mix with any business.

    Unlimited beer. Can't go wrong with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handy Man View Post
    Unlimited beer. Can't go wrong with that.
    May I order 3 of those please !
    and 1 x unmetered beer !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handy Man View Post
    Unlimited beer. Can't go wrong with that.
    What happens when the keg runs dry?
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  38. #38
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    Tap another?
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