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  1. #1
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    JustEdge: Collection Agencies

    I am currently in a twist with JE over some servers and I'm not sure how to explain to them the proof I have which clears my name. Now don't get me wrong, I am in no way a scammer or cheap scape but I feel as if I shouldn't pay for something when I'm rightly innocent and at this point I'm not sure who's right and who's wrong. What do you guys think?

    Server #1:
    Renewal Date: 12/02/2007
    Requested Cancellation: 06 Dec 2007 07:18 AM
    The first server was requested to be canceled over the phone and the usage of the server was stopped before the phone call occurred.

    Code:
    1375 1xxxxxxxxxx  18888932269  OUTBOUND  11/01/07 10:06:00  00:00:26
    1376 1xxxxxxxxxx  18888932269  OUTBOUND  11/01/07 10:06:42  00:01:52
    1388 1xxxxxxxxxx  18888932269  OUTBOUND  11/02/07 11:08:26  00:07:08
    1389 1xxxxxxxxxx  18888932269  OUTBOUND  11/02/07 11:16:07  00:05:05 
    1390 1xxxxxxxxxx  18888932269  OUTBOUND  11/02/07 11:25:26  00:03:36
    These calls were to cancel this server.

    Server #2:
    Renewal Date: 01/08/2008
    Requested Cancellation: 11 Jan 2008 07:08 AM

    For the second server, usage had stopped on the 6th when a payment to another server company had been processed. I can give you as many screenshots as you'd like of my paypal account. This is just to show that I had no need for the JE server.

    Code:
     
    Call before billing date to cancel:
    2031 1xxxxxxxxxx 18888932269 OUTBOUND 01/02/08 14:27:11 00:03:40
     
    Call that was picked up after the billing date:
    2095 1xxxxxxxxxx 18888932269 OUTBOUND 01/08/08 13:57:13 00:30:50
    I have no hard feelings for the guys over at JE. Gregg is a great guy and has always been around to help out but am I wrong for holding back on payments? Or am I legit with my findings?
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  2. #2
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by w00ts!te View Post
    I am currently in a twist with JE over some servers and I'm not sure how to explain to them the proof I have which clears my name. Now don't get me wrong, I am in no way a scammer or cheap scape but I feel as if I shouldn't pay for something when I'm rightly innocent and at this point I'm not sure who's right and who's wrong. What do you guys think?

    For the second server, usage had stopped on the 6th when a payment to another server company had been processed. I can give you as many screenshots as you'd like of my paypal account. This is just to show that I had no need for the JE server.

    I have no hard feelings for the guys over at JE. Gregg is a great guy and has always been around to help out but am I wrong for holding back on payments? Or am I legit with my findings?
    Having no need for a server and not owing the company money for services rendered (albeit not utilized during the next billing period) are entirely different things. A provider may have a multitude of reasons for setting a minimum notice to cancel prior to the next billing date, but regardless of the validity of their reasons, the contract binds you to follow their billing policies regardless of your needs or justification. If you didn't give them the minimum notice required by the ToS, then you owe them for the next month.
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  4. #4
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    Looking at server 2, he called them on 01/02 and the server was due on 01/08, so he called early there.
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  5. #5
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    From their ToS:

    "CANCELLATION AND EARLY TERMINATION. All cancellations in accordance with the terms and conditions contained herein must be submitted in writing via JustEdge Networks's online cancellation form or Customer may submit a request for cancellation in writing via registered mail. 30 Days Notice of cancellation is required. All Customer accounts must be paid in full before the transaction will be considered complete. Any contracts terminated prior to the end of said term will be subject to an early cancellation fee equal to fifty (50%) percent of the remaining service fees unless otherwise stated in a service contract between customer and JustEdge Networks."

    You owe them the money. Pay them.

    --Tina
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  6. #6
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    I observed, he called clear of a month on server one, not two, or am I mis reading?
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  7. #7
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    Server#1:
    Due: 12/02/2007
    Canceled: 11/01/2007

    Server #2:
    Due: 01/08/2008
    Canceled: 01/02/2008

    So I should pay for server #2?
    Last edited by w00ts!te; 01-11-2008 at 11:16 PM.
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  8. #8
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    EDIT: I misread, you do owe for both. Improper cancelation.

    I think my replies to this thread are complete, seems like I'm consuming it.
    Last edited by Dougy; 01-11-2008 at 11:20 PM.
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  9. #9
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by w00ts!te View Post
    Server#1:
    Due: 12/02/2007
    Canceled: 11/01/2007

    Server #2:
    Due: 01/08/2008
    Canceled: 01/02/2008

    So I should pay for server #2?
    Did you submit the cancellation request in writing via registered mail? If you didn't, you owe for the month on the server plus 50% penalty fee.

    --Tina
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_M View Post
    It would seem you didnt follow the correct procedure to cancel. Being a host yourself, what would you do if this was one of your clients?
    The customer is always right.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by w00ts!te View Post
    The customer is always right.
    /me signs up with w00ts!te and then completely violates all of the rules and demands free service for six months on some bogus complaint.

    I'd be a customer...so I'd be right, eh?

    --Tina
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  13. #13
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    I am not so sure about that. What would you do if I was your client and didnt use the proper method?
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina View Post
    /me signs up with w00ts!te and then completely violates all of the rules and demands free service for six months on some bogus complaint.

    I'd be a customer...so I'd be right, eh?

    --Tina
    Your just being harsh. I'll just end up paying.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina View Post
    /me signs up with w00ts!te and then completely violates all of the rules and demands free service for six months on some bogus complaint.

    I'd be a customer...so I'd be right, eh?

    --Tina
    As right as you are Tina, I think that was a bit overdoing it.
    simplywww: directadmin and cpanel hosting that will rock your socks
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougy View Post
    As right as you are Tina, I think that was a bit overdoing it.
    That was exactly my point. The customer isn't always right. Especially when they try to weasel out of server bills.

    --Tina
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  17. #17
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  18. #18
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    You say they billed your PayPal account, did you fail to cancel your PayPal subscription if there was one?
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  19. #19
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PersonalJihad View Post
    You say they billed your PayPal account, did you fail to cancel your PayPal subscription if there was one?
    Umm. No that was to another company.

    Address, home phone and paypal account.
    Last edited by w00ts!te; 01-12-2008 at 12:05 AM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by w00ts!te View Post
    Your just being harsh. I'll just end up paying.
    I fail to see how her hypothetical refusal to honor the terms of a contract and your refusal (albeit you have stated you will pay) to honor the terms of a contract you enterred (when the full terms were completely and clearly explained, and located in the logical and an accessible location). Perhaps you can enlighten me as to how violting the terms of a contract is alright, excusable, or even understandable when you were provided with the services you requested; they maintained their end of the deal, why should you be excused


    On a separate and unrelated note (you absolutely owe them the fees outlined within the ToS) I find it rather unethical for a web company to require a registered mail cancellation. Furthermore, it seems to me a transparent attempt to fleece the customer for an additional month of service, or half the bill with no services rendered. Although it is utterly essential for a responsible renter of a dedicated server (and anybody who enters into a legally binding contract) to review the terms of a contract and the services provided, it seems to me that any prospective customer who takes the time to read a ToS as well as plans to honor said ToS would not choose to buy services or products from a company who employs such cancellation policies either because such a policy is not practical, it restricts the freedom and reduces the profitability of said customer, or because it is simply not an indication of a desire to render a service of high value (if one months payment is that essential for a business' success, they need to revise their business plan).

    Good luck to you, and I hope you pay them the money and abide by the terms you agreed to when you purchased the server.
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  22. #22
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    It doesn't say they have to submit it via registered mail. It says they have to submit it through the online cancellation form, or through registered mail.

    There's the possibility the online form didn't work, or didn't provide verification the server was canceled but that's a different issue which didn't seem to be the case here.
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  23. #23
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    I know that we have all let customers slide, because no one reads their contracts and everyone is to lazy to actually cancel until that 5th email that says they're past due.

    I typically push as far as I can, and then let them slide if they're going to go away and say bad things about their experience. In truth, they'll also probably never come back, but do you want to ensure that by giving them a bad experience when leaving? What's a few days?

    Legally, Luke probably owes the money and to protect his credit may need to pay, and of course speak horribly about the cancelation policy nazis on public forums.

    What ever happened to pro-rated cancelation refunds?
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitserve View Post
    I know that we have all let customers slide, because no one reads their contracts and everyone is to lazy to actually cancel until that 5th email that says they're past due.

    I typically push as far as I can, and then let them slide if they're going to go away and say bad things about their experience. In truth, they'll also probably never come back, but do you want to ensure that by giving them a bad experience when leaving? What's a few days?

    Legally, Luke probably owes the money and to protect his credit may need to pay, and of course speak horribly about the cancelation policy nazis on public forums.

    What ever happened to pro-rated cancelation refunds?
    On dedicated servers?? We have to pay our server bills, regardless of whether or not our clients pay us. I haven't been lucky enough to find a provider that will cancel our invoices just because we happened to let a deadbeat sign up with us.

    (edit) I just looked at your website. It looks like you don't sell dedicated servers. Hosting accounts are a whole different ballgame than the dedicated server market. There's a huge difference between someone not paying for a $5 a month hosting account and someone not paying for a $200 per month server bill - of which you owe $150 of that to your provider. (/edit)

    --Tina
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina View Post
    On dedicated servers?? We have to pay our server bills, regardless of whether or not our clients pay us. I haven't been lucky enough to find a provider that will cancel our invoices just because we happened to let a deadbeat sign up with us.
    That's why I don't resell someone else's hardware.
    -Mark Adams
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitserve View Post
    That's why I don't resell someone else's hardware.
    Where are your dedicated server offerings? It would appear, from your website, that you sell shared hosting accounts.

    --Tina
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina View Post
    Where are your dedicated server offerings? It would appear, from your website, that you sell shared hosting accounts.
    Tina, where are you going with this?
    -Mark Adams
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina View Post
    On dedicated servers?? We have to pay our server bills, regardless of whether or not our clients pay us. I haven't been lucky enough to find a provider that will cancel our invoices just because we happened to let a deadbeat sign up with us.
    Tina,

    We have the exact same problem as you do. While our provider will let us cancel a server upto 5 days past the due date, we still do require a 3 day notice of cancellation via the support system. I think 3 days notice is totally reasonable.

    A lot of customers think cancellation notices are put into place to inconvenience them and get more money from them - and it's not. We need time to review and process the cancellation. It's not a "click a button and it's done" thing.

    I can't stand it when people don't follow a very simple cancellation process -- and then blame ME for it (when it's in the Terms of Service, in their welcome email, and in the reminder notice sent 7 days before their due date) and get mad when I tell them they have to pay. Then you always get the people who don't bother cancelling at all and just don't pay. Either way, we work with a very effective collections agency, and the customer ends up paying a whole mess of extra fees.

    To be honest though, this is exactly why I stopped taking PayPal. Since I've started taking credit cards only, everyone seems to magically be cancelling on time (knowing that if they don't I'll charge them) and I no longer get kiddies anymore -- you know, the ones that signup with PayPal and expect instant account setup, support in 30 seconds or less, and no policies/rules/AUP, and do a dispute if it's not exactly their way .
    Nick Hudson - Prevail Host LLC - http://www.prevail.host/
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitserve View Post
    Tina, where are you going with this?
    Illustrating that shared hosting account past due invoices are completely different, as far as profit/loss go, from dedicated servers. Your point was that customers should be allowed to slide a bit on past due server bills and that you don't resell other companies' servers. I'm trying to establish if you offer dedicated servers or not. The comment you made could be taken either way and I'm trying to clarify.

    --Tina
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  30. #30
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    Fine ifyou dont resell other hardware then your still stuck with around $100 colo fee. No matter if you resell the servers or dont, you get a fee there, and when the client doesnt pay, its a loss. so your gonna make them pay even if it means adding extra fees.

    My policy states that we need a 10 day notice to cancel them. IF they cancel late, my provider holds me responsible for the bill, so therefor i hold my client responsible.
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  31. #31
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    I'm really not sure why you'd sign with a company on a monthly contract that requires 30 day cancellation notice. Basically, if the service is terrible you'd have to cancel the day you ordered to ensure you weren't charged for an additional month. I don't think such a stipulation is conscionable.
    Joseph Laws
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilMan View Post
    Fine ifyou dont resell other hardware then your still stuck with around $100 colo fee. No matter if you resell the servers or dont, you get a fee there, and when the client doesnt pay, its a loss. so your gonna make them pay even if it means adding extra fees.

    My policy states that we need a 10 day notice to cancel them. IF they cancel late, my provider holds me responsible for the bill, so therefor i hold my client responsible.
    No dedicated server providers that have their own hardware rent rack space by the U. And although it is wasted space, hardware, and power for a dedicated provider using their own hardware, it is only wasted for the time that it takes the customer to bother to pay their bill, inform the company of cancellation, or when they simply don't respond and the provider is forced to wipe the server.

    The simple fact is that business has nothing to do with morals, what should happen, or honor. It has to do with the agreement made between two parties. Misunderstandings, errors, mistakes, etc. made by the customer are simply not the responsibility of the provider unless they affect other persons, in which case it is the responsibilty of the provider to maintain the services provided to other customers. When violating a ToS, SLA, or contract itself, a customer is responsible for their actions as is noted in writing; it just simply has nothing to do with the "nice" alternative that a provider could offer at their own expense, regardless of whether it is a penny, a million dollars, or nothing at all. The written contract governs the behavior as well as the liability of both parties. When a provider makes an error resulting in downtime, you don't often see the customer telling the provider they don't want the downtime SLA refund, or the customer saying their lost data is negligible; they expect to be given everything outlined in the agreements they signed on to. It's a pity that some customers don't feel they are responsible for the agreements they made.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina View Post
    That was exactly my point. The customer isn't always right. Especially when they try to weasel out of server bills.

    --Tina
    You know what bugs me? Hosts who put things like "if you don't give us an entire months notice prior to canceling a dedicated server in the highly volatile dedicated server market, we'll charge you for an additional month anyway!" into their terms of service, knowing that 90% of their customers will never actually read it. Why? What do you gain from charging the customer for another month? You can't resell that to somebody else now. The soon to be former and probably disgruntled customer will be sure to tell all their friends how they've been "wronged" by the host.. There's not a single benefit - trying to bully people into staying with you... Either do month to month or do a yearly contract. Penny wise pound foolish.

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  34. #34
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    I just wish we received more cancellation notices instead of the ignoring emails like they are scared.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwr View Post
    You know what bugs me? Hosts who put things like "if you don't give us an entire months notice prior to canceling a dedicated server in the highly volatile dedicated server market, we'll charge you for an additional month anyway!" into their terms of service, knowing that 90% of their customers will never actually read it.
    What bugs me is people who sign up for things and then whine about what they've agreed to later on. Why read things that you're agreeing to? Because you might just be agreeing to some silliness like giving 30 days advanced notice of cancellation!

    --Tina
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  36. #36
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    Hosts are not being unreasonble. They need more then a "OOOH cancel the server today, i know im due but cancle it anyways". Even the DC's need time, because they need to dispatch techs to pull the box.

    The TOS with hosts are a legal binding contract and they agree to abide by them on signup. IF you go sign a contract with some major company that says you will buy 10 grand worth of supplies in 30 days but you dont, do you think they re going to let you off the hook? You think the court will execpt the excuse of "Your HONOR, i never read the contract, i just signed it!"

    Well it doesnt matter if they read it or not, its still considered a legal contract to establish what each part can do. They can suck it up and pay. I hate the clients that quote you on your own tos to make sure they cna get w.e it is they want there way, but when you quota it ebcause you have to suspend them for non-payment, its like OMG look at what they are doing!!!
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina View Post
    What bugs me is people who sign up for things and then whine about what they've agreed to later on. Why read things that you're agreeing to? Because you might just be agreeing to some silliness like giving 30 days advanced notice of cancellation!

    --Tina
    I also enjoy paying charge backs.

    < / sarcasm >

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  38. #38
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    Since w00ts!te brought this to public here's how it ended:

    1st server was canceled without further obligations to pay
    2nd server effective cancellation date is 2/8/2008

    His renewal invoice went out on 8th of January, on 10th of January he informed us that there's a problem with the server and we found that the server has been compromised. After restoring the server and all his data, on 12th on January he simply wrote "never mind, I want to cancel this server now".

    Even though we request that our clients notify us early and that we request snail mail, our cancellation policies are simple, if you server renews on i.e. 8th of the month, notify us via email at least prior to 8th or early morning on 8th and we won't hold you liable for the bill.

    After few email back and forth with w00ts!te we've agreed to what I wrote above, he made the payment for the second server and that server will be taken offline on 8th of February as per our policies.


    The problem is when a lot of clients do not notify anyone that they want to cancel the server, they simply wait until it's suspended and then say "oh I wanted to cancel the server but....<insert story here >..." or some wont even do that. Everyone has to agree that there are costs involved: power, space, bandwidth etc and there seems to be trend these days that a lot of people think "oh I want to cancel, I'll just stop paying and they'll turn it off".
    I've been hearing more and more cases where other dedicated hosting companies are starting to use collection agencies more and more to avoid those unnecessary losses. And in my opinion that's what should happen. The competition in dedicated server market is fierce prices are low and profit margins are non-existent. If clients are to expect higher and higher quality of service, they should realize that they have responsibilities as well. Not notifying about cancellation costs money, multiplied that by hundreds if not thousands of people cause even the best company to reduce costs in other areas sacrificing the quality for something that shouldn't happen in the first place.
    The good side is that there are now international collection agencies and they're hungry for new clients.
      0 Not allowed!

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    hmm....
    Posts
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by jwr View Post
    I also enjoy paying charge backs.

    < / sarcasm >
    Those are fun too, but banks are more reasonable these days, if you do have a signature from the client there are good chances that you will win the chargeback. It's not easy though so you get to enjoy the process
      0 Not allowed!

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    5,512
    Quote Originally Posted by jwr View Post
    You know what bugs me? Hosts who put things like "if you don't give us an entire months notice prior to canceling a dedicated server in the highly volatile dedicated server market, we'll charge you for an additional month anyway!" into their terms of service, knowing that 90% of their customers will never actually read it. Why? What do you gain from charging the customer for another month? You can't resell that to somebody else now. The soon to be former and probably disgruntled customer will be sure to tell all their friends how they've been "wronged" by the host.. There's not a single benefit - trying to bully people into staying with you... Either do month to month or do a yearly contract. Penny wise pound foolish.
    No one actually does that, it's just a provision to keep customers like the OP from asking for refunds two days after the billing date. That way you can say, "well we actually require a full month's notice but for you sir we will allow you to cancel anytime before the due date."

    It creates a buffer zone.
      0 Not allowed!

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