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  1. #1
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    GNAX is top 10 SpamHaus "Worst Spam" ISP

    Someone brought to my attention something very interesting today: GNAX has a significant number of SpamHaus listings, many over a year old. There are also multiple ROSKO listings.

    http://www.spamhaus.org/statistics/networks.lasso

    I have always heard generally good things about GNAX, so I wonder why they are dropping the ball here.
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  2. #2
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    Just a couple things to note about Spamhaus.

    1) It is generally not enough to actually have the customer correct their ways, you need to actually remove the customer from your network before they're happy. Example: The only Spamhaus listing we have is for a customer who runs their own mailing lists, etc. which are gathered and used 100% properly. They had once purchased a list from someone else, and it is then that list that got them on Spamhaus. Even though they have since removed that list from their system and have not received a spam complaint for over a year, they're still listed on Spamhaus.

    2) If you asked me, Rokso listings are often times ridiculous. We had one customer who got a Rokso listing because one of the domains they hosted had been used as a nameserver used by a spammer a couple years previous. The customer did not violate our terms of service in any way, not a single spam or abuse complaint was received about that customer, other than the Rokso listing. We had no reason to terminate their service as they weren't breaking our terms of service and eventually they just left.

    Overall, Spamhaus is far from perfect, but as an RBL, it is about as good as you get. I just wouldn't read too far into their listings for the most part. Still, 31 listings IS significant.
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  3. #3
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    I checked a few of the phishing reports, and it seems the pages were removed from the compromised sites.

    I am assuming that means gnax is alerting the websites in question, to make sure the phish sites are removed. If they are doing that for the phishing sites, I would also assume there going after the spammers.

    It doesn't seem they follow-up with spamhaus to get the listing removed though.
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  4. #4
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    Wow, I'm really surprised to see that. I'm surprised, as well, that Internap is listed at number 4.
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  5. Spam happens, as they say! It's a good idea to keep track of those lists.

    Spamhaus... Imagine, they're not even the most aggressive dnsbl out there!
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer View Post
    Overall, Spamhaus is far from perfect, but as an RBL, it is about as good as you get. I just wouldn't read too far into their listings for the most part. Still, 31 listings IS significant.
    At the very least, there's a little bit of inattentiveness on the part of whoever is responsible for abuse issues. If they have dealt with the listings, they should apply for removal. I merely just find it interesting that they have so many listings to make the top 10 and so many listings that are quite old. It's definately not necessarily a "bad thing", but it is curious and if I were a potential customer, possibly concerning.
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  7. #7
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    I am very surprised to see Internap on the list. Of all ISPs out there, I would think it would be one of those ISPs with 0 pending spam complaints.

    Although I dont know how it would affect their potential or current clients when they find out Internap is lenient when it comes to spam but at the same time they are also make the FCP.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer View Post
    Just a couple things to note about Spamhaus.

    1) It is generally not enough to actually have the customer correct their ways, you need to actually remove the customer from your network before they're happy. Example: The only Spamhaus listing we have is for a customer who runs their own mailing lists, etc. which are gathered and used 100% properly. They had once purchased a list from someone else, and it is then that list that got them on Spamhaus. Even though they have since removed that list from their system and have not received a spam complaint for over a year, they're still listed on Spamhaus.

    2) If you asked me, Rokso listings are often times ridiculous. We had one customer who got a Rokso listing because one of the domains they hosted had been used as a nameserver used by a spammer a couple years previous. The customer did not violate our terms of service in any way, not a single spam or abuse complaint was received about that customer, other than the Rokso listing. We had no reason to terminate their service as they weren't breaking our terms of service and eventually they just left.

    Overall, Spamhaus is far from perfect, but as an RBL, it is about as good as you get. I just wouldn't read too far into their listings for the most part. Still, 31 listings IS significant.
    1) Your customer is a mailer who broke the rules and deserves to be listed. How about you change your network policies to only allow double opt-in mailers then you should have no problems.

    2) I haven't seen a Rosko listing that wasn't deserved but *shrug* I guess you are the exception.

    Spamhaus is very good in what it does and overall great people to work with. They perform a great service to the internet community.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anantha View Post
    I am very surprised to see Internap on the list. Of all ISPs out there, I would think it would be one of those ISPs with 0 pending spam complaints.

    Although I dont know how it would affect their potential or current clients when they find out Internap is lenient when it comes to spam but at the same time they are also make the FCP.
    Internap is well known to harbor spammers and crapware sites. They house a ton of "badware" type sites and have for a longgg time

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossH View Post
    1) Your customer is a mailer who broke the rules and deserves to be listed. How about you change your network policies to only allow double opt-in mailers then you should have no problems.

    2) I haven't seen a Rosko listing that wasn't deserved but *shrug* I guess you are the exception.

    Spamhaus is very good in what it does and overall great people to work with. They perform a great service to the internet community.
    Ross,

    I've seen many Rokso listings that were undeserved. For example about a year ago we had a user (not a customer of ours) who listed one of our DNS servers as a secondary DNS. We provided absolutely no DNS services for the domain that was being spamvertized. We got a listing because the DNS server was listed on the whois for the domain being spammed. Took weeks to get it delisted.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFerrier View Post
    Internap is well known to harbor spammers and crapware sites. They house a ton of "badware" type sites and have for a longgg time
    Yeah, Internap is actually home to many of the major "mailers" for corporate communications and other "good" mailings which altough are double opt-in can-spam compliant, etc, etc still net them tons of complaints.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFerrier View Post
    Internap is well known to harbor spammers and crapware sites. They house a ton of "badware" type sites and have for a longgg time
    The biggest player in 'mail' up here in Seattle runs a primarily Internap network as well... It doesn't make sense to the laymen until you realize these companies can charge insane amounts of money and spammers will still pay up as they are turned away everywhere else.

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossH View Post
    1) Your customer is a mailer who broke the rules and deserves to be listed. How about you change your network policies to only allow double opt-in mailers then you should have no problems.

    2) I haven't seen a Rosko listing that wasn't deserved but *shrug* I guess you are the exception.

    Spamhaus is very good in what it does and overall great people to work with. They perform a great service to the internet community.
    1) We do only allow double opt-in... As I said, they made one mistake and we worked it out agreeably with them within 48 hours. Are you saying it is wrong to keep a long term customer because they made one mistake even though they rectified it promptly?

    2) I am not saying Rokso listings are wrong, in that they incorrectly associate someone with some SPAM group. Personally though, I find it wrong to still list a system which has absolutely no relation to spam when the only link to spam that person has is several years old. It is basically discouraging spammers from cleaning up their act, even if they do clean up their act they're still going to get Spamhaus listings, so why bother? It also makes some fairly large leaps of logic on occasion, etc.

    I agree, Spamhaus, out of all the RBL's, is far and away the best and are very good to deal with for the most part. They actually know what they're talking about, which is relatively rare when it comes to RBL managers.
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  14. #14
    Karl,

    I have helped a couple of companies clean up their Spamhaus listings (one heavy one on the forums, Hivelocity) so it can be done I assure you. You just need to work well with Spamhaus and communicate.

    1) I would say your customer needs to make amends, apologize heavily themselves. I would show a contract to the Spamhaus crew showing where this customer agreed to double opt in with actual fines if they don't follow those rules.

    2) What Spamhaus thinks and what you know may be two different things, this is where communication is important.

    If you need help communicating and working with Spamhaus you have my IM and lets take it to there and I'll be glad to help you.

  15. #15
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    As I've said, I have no issue with Spamhaus. We have communicated with them, and they have made it clear on many occasions that the only way they're removing that listing is if we offer proof that that customer is no longer with us. It is Spamhaus's right to do so, to protect their customers. On the other hand, that listing is only affecting the customer the listing is for, and that customer is fine with it, as they're still with us well over a year since the listing was put in place.

    My point is simply that Spamhaus isn't perfect, and I'm not expecting anyone to be perfect, thus know the whole story, don't just make decisions based on the fact that a listing exists, etc.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer View Post
    My point is simply that Spamhaus isn't perfect, and I'm not expecting anyone to be perfect, thus know the whole story, don't just make decisions based on the fact that a listing exists, etc.
    I definitely have to agree with Karl. Overall Spamhaus is a great organization but some of their listings are occasionally incorrect (No one is perfect) yet the requirements to get delisted are completely unreasonable (even when listed incorrectly).

    Spamhaus would rather pull the trigger and then ask questions later.

  17. #17
    I'm sorry but I disagree and note that some companies here admit being listed because their customer broke the rules. Again Karl, I offer you help in getting your specific situation resolved.

    Spamhaus is more than fair in their listings and I haven't really seen unfair listing by them.

  18. #18
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    spamhaus is great - I have enjoyed working with John Reid and the guys through the years.

    I dont see GNAX on their top listings though......

    but it is interesting to see Internap and verizon mci on there as well as calpop

    I suspect as you say that there are some innacuracies based on whethere a provider actively keeps their side of the list removal requests going back to them. just because someone is listed on there does not mean that their listings are active - in fact none of them could be active and the list shows them as top 10 but that in fact would be highly misleading just as the title of this thread is. but hey - whats new - misinformation.
    I guess you can now conclude that that information on that listing is innacurate unless you want to go verify each listing to see what is active.

    GNAX is very quick to act on spam complaints and will always be - our network is very clean.
    Last edited by sailor; 01-06-2008 at 10:10 AM.
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