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  1. #101
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    Oh, I didn't mean to be rude. If I was sorry then. mrZippy knows that code review is important, as he did it but maybe a bit too late, no? That's my feeling when I read this thread.

    Thomas
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  2. #102
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    As an old-fart programmer myself (including contractual), sorry linux-tech you're WAY OFF.

    1) If I post on elance that I want this software written and I expect it to include documentation, then yes I most definitely did indeed pay for more than just the code itself. If I pay you to rotate my tires my way, and you accept that job, you are contractually bound to do so. Failure is a material breach. The contractor is working for them.

    2) If I pay for a professional programmer (and they all claim to be professional when they write bids), then I expect a professional result.

    3) The contract provider does not have to learn the style of the contracted programmer. Apparently you've never been a hired gun programmer. Most places you walk in and they hand you THEIR specs, coding style & standards documents. The programmer is expected to live to them or the code will not be accepted, and the programmer will be out on his ear before the 90 day mark (the usual trial in my experience).

    4) Delays can and should be avoided if at all possible. A delay or two does happen. In my experience, because of requirements changes, but that's another story. But claiming a week and taking weeks is the sure sign of either a contractor with little to no experience, or outright misrepresentation if they knew ahead of time.


    To the OP:
    Did you know that Zend has a certification program for PHP? While it doesn't address any of the language difficulties or work history. At least it should get rid of some of the learn as we go you've seen.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by labgeek View Post
    As an old-fart programmer myself (including contractual), sorry linux-tech you're WAY OFF.
    Thanks for weighing-in on this, labgeek. I'm a FOG, too (started in 1976). I was starting to like I was talking down a pipe.... I agree with what you said 100 percent. But it seems we're few and far between.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by gplhost View Post
    To me, when choosing between 2 things that does exactly the same thing, I'd choose the most quick one. So echo is better than print because it's one char shorter...

    Then why do you think Messagebox.show() is better than Msgbox() ??? I don't get it... Simply because it's "nice" and "object oriented" ? No point... Objects are needed WHEN there's a need for things like polymorphism, refinements, modularities, and things like that. I've seen many times OOP abuse, and this example is to me, one of them, as I'm sure that underneath, it's calling a function that is not object oriented.

    Thomas
    MsgBox(); - what does this mean to a newbie or to a person who never code before? Can you honestly tell me you can understand what MsgBox() mean if you are not a programmer?

    MessageBox.show() - You can clearly understand that we are calling a MessageBox and its method show().

    It got nothing to do with OOP and yes, OOP is alway better but look at the code and tell me which one express itself better to none programmer or even programmer.

    Programing is like writing in English. You can use a lot of slang like "yo, what's up" or even the current text message generation like in the Verzion mobile commercial with "LOL, OMG! BBF". How can you express yourself or your program if no one understand what you are writing about?
    Last edited by jt2377; 09-25-2007 at 07:24 PM.

  5. #105
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    You could have also write Display_An_Informative_Dialogue_Box_To_The_User_With_No_Choice_But_A_Ok_Button_And_Thats_It() but it's not really easy to type. MsgBox() is quite easy to understand, come on!!!

    I hate Windows because it aims at the most stupid crowd, and that's why I'm using Linux, because it chooses the most convenient, even if you need to LEARN it, which is, on the long therm, the best way to go. This one is a very good example...

    Thomas
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by labgeek View Post
    Did you know that Zend has a certification program for PHP?
    Did you know that certifications are utterly meaningless? Hell, so are CS degrees.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by gplhost View Post
    You could have also write Display_An_Informative_Dialogue_Box_To_The_User_With_No_Choice_But_A_Ok_Button_And_Thats_It() but it's not really easy to type. MsgBox() is quite easy to understand, come on!!!

    I hate Windows because it aims at the most stupid crowd, and that's why I'm using Linux, because it chooses the most convenient, even if you need to LEARN it, which is, on the long therm, the best way to go. This one is a very good example...

    Thomas
    why do you want to chose such long name to describe something that can be easily done with MessageBox ?

    since MessageBox is an object it have the method to show the ok, cancel...etc. so your long name object is not needed.

    MsgBox() - what does Msg mean? How's typing Message is troublesome and why does this have to do with Windows or Linux? You can write crap code on both platform. Linux chooses the most convenient? Crappy code is not convenient. It's another way to say that you write spaghettis, unreadable code. writing crap code doesn't mean you are l33t or your code is convenient.

    Don't know if you ever work in an team environment but i write code for the next guy and not for me. I make it as clean or to the most "stupid crowd" and "un-convenient" as you put it so he can pick up much faster with meaningful code instead the shorthand/spaghettis code.
    Last edited by jt2377; 09-26-2007 at 10:46 AM.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt2377 View Post
    why do you want to chose such long name to describe something that can be easily done with MessageBox ?

    since MessageBox is an object it have the method to show the ok, cancel...etc. so your long name object is not needed.

    MsgBox() - what does Msg mean? How's typing Message is troublesome and why does this have to do with Windows or Linux? You can write crap code on both platform. Linux chooses the most convenient? Crappy code is not convenient. It's another way to say that you write spaghettis, unreadable code. writing crap code doesn't mean you are l33t or your code is convenient.

    Don't know if you ever work in an team environment but i write code for the next guy and not for me. I make it as clean or to the most "stupid crowd" and "un-convenient" as you put it so he can pick up much faster with meaningful code instead the shorthand/spaghettis code.

    I doubt the long named object was a serious remark. The "stupid crowd" as you put it, isn't going to understand php, perl, asp, ext. anyway, so it doesn't make much sense writing code so they can understand it.

    I write code to function as quick and efficiently, while using as little resources as possible. Sure I'll comment things out a bit if I intend others to read through and modify it, but otherwise there's no point waisting time.

    All programmers has their own techniques and strengths. What works for you and your purposes may not for me and vise versa. It's important to identify the best methods for the current project, overall goals, and keep things as simple as possible, one step at a time.

    For me it's best to meticulously plan out the entire project or piece I'm working on before ever writing a single line of code. Some may agree. I've known many excellent developers who just sit down and go at it, but even they have some sort of check list.

    It seems we've gotten way off topic, but I think there's been some reputable points made.

    Best of luck!

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by linux-tech View Post
    C> If you want something done how you would do it, do it yourself. Programmers don't have the time to waste writing comments about every piddly little function.
    http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cg...e=text%2Fplain

    FreeBSD programmers seem to disagree with you. Actually, any good programmer will.

    And FreeBSD programmers aren't event paid to write comments. Yet they do. Go figure.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugin View Post
    http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cg...e=text%2Fplain

    FreeBSD programmers seem to disagree with you. Actually, any good programmer will.

    And FreeBSD programmers aren't event paid to write comments. Yet they do. Go figure.
    Touché! Wow! I deal with Slackware on a daily basis and that didn't even occur to me!

  11. #111
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    Touche nothing! That doesn't prove anything at all.
    Let's take a look (again) at reality here.

    A programmer's best use of his time is to write code, NOT to write comments, or 3 lines of comments telling idiots what 1 line of code does.

    Individuals working on Open Source projects have the unrealistic expectation that all code will be documented as they would have it done so.

    Again, NO TWO PROGRAMMERS ARE ALIKE. NOTHING will be done exactly as you would do it specifically, unless YOU do it yourself.

    One of the biggest pains in the *** is taking over projects that are half completed. You have to spend countless time learning nuances, design structure, and flow that the other programmer used just to get yourself up to date and up to speed. THIS is what the individual is complaining about here. The designers didn't do things "as he would".
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by linux-tech View Post
    Touche nothing! That doesn't prove anything at all.
    Let's take a look (again) at reality here.

    A programmer's best use of his time is to write code, NOT to write comments, or 3 lines of comments telling idiots what 1 line of code does.

    Individuals working on Open Source projects have the unrealistic expectation that all code will be documented as they would have it done so.

    Again, NO TWO PROGRAMMERS ARE ALIKE. NOTHING will be done exactly as you would do it specifically, unless YOU do it yourself.

    One of the biggest pains in the *** is taking over projects that are half completed. You have to spend countless time learning nuances, design structure, and flow that the other programmer used just to get yourself up to date and up to speed. THIS is what the individual is complaining about here. The designers didn't do things "as he would".
    When you get beyond this attitude, where one performs as they see fit, not as they are contracted to do, let us know. Everyone I know hires people and companies that do work the way they want it done, not how the programmer feels like doing it.

    Real Programmers write comments. Not necessarily, as you suggest, for every line of code. But at least in accordance with the wishes of whomever is paying them. Real Programmers write quality code that they anticipate will be used even after they're no longer in the picture. If it can't be maintained, it gets thrown out.

    While I agree that no two anything are alike, programmers or otherwise, if you specify up front how you want something done, then it should be done the way you want it. It really is that simple.

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