Web Hosting Talk : Web Hosting Main Forums : Dedicated Server : Managed servers w/root access

[choicetech]

We are considering moving from an unmanaged (Planet) solution to managed servers, and were about to go with National Net, when today I found out that apparently National Net simply will not allow their customers to have root access to their boxes (ostensibly because they do all the management.)

We are constantly doing little things that are simply a lot easier to do directly than to explain to someone else how to do and wait for them to do it, yet we want to leave most of the "heavy lifting" of server management to someone else.

Are there providers who offer full management (including script installs, security patching, support, etc.) and also allow customers to have root access, or are these two mutually incompatible things in the eyes of the ISPs offering managed services?

[theBleeber]

There are a lot of companies that will offer this.

The reason why some do not is so that the client has limited ability to mess up the OS and its services by tweaking around and not knowing what they are doing.

[Techark]

There are lots of providers that will offer that but most have a clause that if you break something or mess something up while in there as root you have to pay them to fix it. In other words their management does not cover your mistakes.

[Energizer Bunny]

Well good rule i am guessing, i think server admins that get hired should do that too .

[fitesun]

How do you know it is REAL dedicated server without root access?
Try to look at offer forums,you would find many providers(mostly) give you root access for managed servers.

Regards!
Zhu

[michaelfoo]

Originally Posted by fitesun

How do you know it is REAL dedicated server without root access?
Try to look at offer forums,you would find many providers(mostly) give you root access for managed servers.

Regards!
Zhu

Hi,
I think he means SSH root access. Most clients on fully managed servers do not get SSH root access.

Take the service from established companies to ensure that he gets REAL dedicated server, not a shared

Thanks.

[wheimeng]

Well, it depends, most WHT fully managed providers do provide that.

Have you ever considered emailing the providers for more accurate answer?

[HE/LW-Sam]

I think servstra shall be able to deal with your requirements...

[dkitchen]

This is an interesting topic and we do get asked an awful lot if we will hand over root access, the usual answer is no for obvious reasons. When you're managing a server you give a price based on you doing all the management; if someone else has access the chance is they will break something and then ask the provider to fix it.

There have been exceptions more recently with us where customers have been given access, and (fingers crossed) nothing has gone wrong as of yet. We worked around it by giving the user their own root login meaning they can change their password, and everything they do is logged to them. In the event something does go wrong we can easily track down who broke it and how.

I think if you ask around this forum especially, you'll find a lot of providers who will be willing to work with you on your requirements as long as you mutually agree what you can and cannot adjust.

Dan

[coax]

In that case I think it should say on the host website explicitly that the host does not give out root access on managed server, and then link to a page where this is explained.

In most webhosting cases I find that I do not need root to do whatever I want to do.
Root should be reserved for setting up and maintaining services and security, while cpanel/etc should be used for the actual webhost stuff.

If you run a shell server or other more specialized things on your dedicated you may want to hire an external managing company or just do everything yourself, or find a friend who knows what to do.

[choicetech]

We aren't running anything really exotic, but there are cases where one of our programmers can much more easily solve problems when he's working out new functionality on one of our scripts if he has full SSH root access to the box.

The provider we were considering finally said that they do not offer root access, but it was pulling teeth to get that answer; when I asked a question in a thread (on another board) about why a problem couldn't be solved by going in under SSH, I got a "Oh, but we just do everything for you, all you have to do is put a ticket in and we take care of it, much easier that way" response. Only when I directly called them on giving an evasive answer did they actually say "No, we do not ever give out root access" and it had simply never occurred to me that this was an option, so I was unaware of whether it was industry standard or just their policy.

I do understand, and can see what could go wrong, but if the user is willing to take responsibility for and/or pay for someone else to fix anything they screw up, it shouldn't be an issue, and it sounds like there are companies that understand and will do that.

[twhiting9275]

Here's the deal with "managed providers", in a nutshell:

Firstly, many don't let you have "root access". Why? NOT because they don't want you screwing things up, but because they don't do their jobs, end of story.

I can't count the times I've seen "managed providers" and "server admin" pull this one. From FastServers (whom I used to be really for, until I found this out) to touchsupport (I won't even comment on them), it is the same.

Server A is rolled off the line with phpx and kernelx
6 months to a year later, server A STILL has phpx and kernelx when both have been updated. The DC's response? Oh there is no need to update those. Ummm, NO, there is ALWAYS a need to update software, especially php and kernel software when they're released.

Then we have the logs:
DC's don't have the staff to go through the logs, period, and I have YET to see one whom is smart enough to have the SENSITIVE stuff forwarded. Naaah, it's just "let it run". Now, that is the wrong approach. Logs contain valuable information about servers, server status, and what is going on with the server. They should always be paid attention to.

Then, of course, we have custom stuff. When dealing with managed providers (again, such as FastServers), the problem is that THEY don't support EVERYTHING, and at SOME POINT, you need root access to get in and configure things.

Think about it for 5 seconds and you'll realize that it's the truth. Would you rather:

A> open a ticket, wait for a response, then another response (minimum 2 hours there)
or
B> go in and resolve the situation yourself within 15 minutes

The choice is clearly, and obviously B

Then, I won't even go INTO the "time" thing. What happens when your server needs something and you've used up all your "admin time" for the month?

When it comes down to it, don't even bother. If the provider isn't giving you root access to something you're paying out the tail end for, forget it, find one that is reasonable, because THAT certainly isn't reasonable.

The provider we were considering finally said that they do not offer root access, but it was pulling teeth to get that answer; when I asked a question in a thread (on another board) about why a problem couldn't be solved by going in under SSH, I got a "Oh, but we just do everything for you, all you have to do is put a ticket in and we take care of it, much easier that way" response. Only when I directly called them on giving an evasive answer did they actually say "No, we do not ever give out root access" and it had simply never occurred to me that this was an option, so I was unaware of whether it was industry standard or just their policy.

It sounds like this provider is simply trying to hide the above (the fact that they don't do SQUAT for client servers).
As for industry standard? Well, it's a 50/50 right now, until people wake up and realize that they need to stand up for their rights to something they're paying that much a month for.

[Techark]

All of what you are saying it true to a degree.

But that also comes with the $20.00 a month server management programs and the $$150 a month managed servers.

It all comes back to you get what you pay for adage.

[TSJason]

Hello choicetech,

The response posted from linux-tech seems a little angry and slightly off-topic. I wanted to point out specifically (since he brought up TouchSupport), that we do not take away root access from the servers which are put on management plans. We do require that we have root access at all times for the scheduled audits and updates we apply on a normal basis; as well as for service monitoring. Taking that access away from the client isn't something we would even dream of, ssh or otherwise.

With regards to his notes on software updates, we are in agreement that many things should be updated on a normal basis (including php and kernels). I'm not sure what justification linux-tech has to make claims about all support companies; especially considering that those aforementioned softwares are specifically listed as part of the upgrades which are included with our management plans.

And finally, just to note on Techark's comment: "There are lots of providers that will offer that but most have a clause that if you break something or mess something up while in there as root you have to pay them to fix it. In other words their management does not cover your mistakes." Additional time is included with management plans for requests that can cover any type of administrative work, including fixing something that may have been accidentally broken.

I find this thread very interesting and insightful. I makes me feel much better about TouchSupport. Seeing that we aren't hitting many of the same mistakes as other server management teams makes me only want to improve. If any of you have additional comments on how to make managed services better we would be very interested to hear them; though I suppose that perhaps it should be opened into a new thread. /shrugs

[Techark]

Depends on what the customer breaks.

If a customer deletes a dns zone by mistake or crashes apache we normally fix it with out saying much.

But if a customer deletes the virtfs on a cpanel server and we have to spend several hours restoring the system by hand to save them from losing their data during an OS reload someone is going to pay.

We always tell our less experienced users if you are in doubt do not do it. Open a ticket and ask before pushing the enter button.