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  1. #1
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    Advice for a web design newbie

    Guys,

    I need your advice. I've decided to start learning web design, but I have no idea where to start. I know basic HTML but aside from that I'm clueless. Should I start with CSS and PHP? I am decent with programming and know a few languages as well as OOP concepts, but graphics and design could just as easily be in Japanese to me. I want to be able to design websites that are functional but also graphically pretty with things like rollover images and whatnot.

    I have never been good with books for things like programming - I much more easily learn by example, but I don't know where to begin.

    Let me know what you think. Any advice is appreciated.

    Thanks!

    -Chris

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Hi, Chris,

    Yes, CSS and PHP will be needed - you won't do without them. You can find online many tutorials on both (well, more on CSS, that's for sure) and start learning by example right away.

    Amalia

  3. #3
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    http://tizag.com & http://w3schools.com should help. Design is another thing, you've got to have an eye for "good design". Pick up a good photo/image application like photoshop or gimp(free). If you really want to get "good", do some research on colors & how people react to them. Believe it or not, certain colors & combinations spark different emotions. "Buy it now" lol
    | | i write code

  4. #4
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    Hi Chris,

    We already talked, so you know what I think the proper course of action is. Regarding PHP, it is not necessary that you learn it in order to do traditional Web design. In fact, it is not necessary that you learn it in order to do complex, server-side scripting. You could just as easily turn your attention to .net, Python, RoR, ColdFusion or any one of a number of Web-supported platforms.

    .net is probably the most powerful. PHP is probably the most well-supported communally - it's quite prominent and the learning curve isn't as great as some others. It's also not nearly as powerful as some other languages, so you have to weigh in the tradeoffs. But no, PHP is not needed, per se.
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  5. #5
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    After I learned simple html I moved onto css. I also learned more about validating my code to xhtml. PHP is not a necessity but it does have some very useful functions such as being able to include/require files which is a good for navigation menus. You could also learn flash to broaden your horizon.

  6. #6
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    PHP is not a necessity but it does have some very useful functions such as being able to include/require files which is a good for navigation menus
    I'm in the camp that doesn't believe PHP is necessary. Very easy to use SSI parsing on .htm/.html files (I wouldn't think of doing sites without SSI). I may get some flak, but PHP is probably one of the most "insecure" languages if not written/used correctly. I can say people also confuse web design and web development. They are not the same in my opinion. I am NOT a web designer (I suck compared to those I know), but I can/do put together sites from PhotoShop/Illustrator files and cut into validated HTML/CSS. I also do scripting etcetera and think of myself as a web developer, not a web designer.

    If you are creative, become a web designer. If you are good at HTML, CSS, and some scripting languages, along with studying usability etcetera - become a developer

  7. #7
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    tcstatic, that's an interesting point. I do plan on becoming a web developer since my designer eye is pretty much blind. Thanks for all the help everyone. I'm going to start off learning CSS and basic designs. Hopefully the rest will come from there.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcstatic View Post
    I can say people also confuse web design and web development. They are not the same in my opinion. I am NOT a web designer (I suck compared to those I know), but I can/do put together sites from PhotoShop/Illustrator files and cut into validated HTML/CSS. I also do scripting etcetera and think of myself as a web developer, not a web designer.

    If you are creative, become a web designer. If you are good at HTML, CSS, and some scripting languages, along with studying usability etcetera - become a developer
    Yeah that is very true. I couldn't draw up a design for a website to save my life but if you give me a psd I will code it for you very fast without even having to think much. I'm really glad it's not my job to draw up the designs lol

  9. #9
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    I definitely believe that people mis-understand the difference between designing and developing.

    I've been forced to learn the design side because my business partner is a very talented programmer and I'm not. but when we decided to make a site i had to learn html/css better. (don't use the site eReferrer in my sig to confirm that. it's an old site that was done before I understood css and validation).

    And saying PHP can be insecure doens't make a lot of sense. ANY program can be insecure using ANY language if it's poorly coded.
    Show your reciprocal links on your website. eReferrer

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    Hi Chris,

    We already talked, so you know what I think the proper course of action is. Regarding PHP, it is not necessary that you learn it in order to do traditional Web design. In fact, it is not necessary that you learn it in order to do complex, server-side scripting. You could just as easily turn your attention to .net, Python, RoR, ColdFusion or any one of a number of Web-supported platforms.

    .net is probably the most powerful. PHP is probably the most well-supported communally - it's quite prominent and the learning curve isn't as great as some others. It's also not nearly as powerful as some other languages, so you have to weigh in the tradeoffs. But no, PHP is not needed, per se.
    I'm going to be working with a new site once eReferrer is completed and I'm going to use .net to do it.

    While it's true some languages are much better than others, if you know how to program you can probably pick up any other language because they all have very similar basics. The nuances and variations (including efficiency) are something that's learned over time though.
    Show your reciprocal links on your website. eReferrer

  11. #11
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    That's what I'm hoping. I'm thinking that because I know some programming techniques in Java I'll be able to more easily learn other languages.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastnoc View Post
    While it's true some languages are much better than others, if you know how to program you can probably pick up any other language because they all have very similar basics. The nuances and variations (including efficiency) are something that's learned over time though.

  12. #12
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    I know a good looking site/design when I see one and can often improve upon them, but cannot create them from scratch. I have spent days working on a design, just to have someone I know knock out a logo and design in 3-4 hours that fit the sites theme or topic perfectly....those are the designers of the world, and I'm not one of them...hehe

    Get very efficient at cutting out a site and giving the same look and feel as the image file you were given, but do it in clean HTML and CSS with repeats for backgrounds, CSS for buttons, etc. Once you get efficient you can take a site that already looks good and recode the HTML, graphics, and CSS and you can often cut the load time/size by 50-200% or more.

    I have seen many pages that are literally 200K with images that can be taken down to 30-50K without changing the look/feel hardly at all (if at all).

    I would also specialize in "something", but of course be prepared to do almost anything or know the people that can...

  13. #13
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    If you're new to web developing, then sure head down the PHP route, there's plenty of available apps that use it that you can begin by creating fun plugins for (Wordpress, etc).

    Given you've got OOP background though I'd be tempted to suggest diving right into .Net. The payscale is far greater (though do be sure to look at your local market and in particular if your State depts use MS or open source) and as the_pm mentions a great deal more powerful.

    The best thing you can do though is gain a good grounding in as many languages/technologies as possible and also develop a process for picking up new stuff in a ridiculously short time. It'll lead to an impressive looking CV in a short space of time as well as ensure you are the 'go to guy' when the fun projects using obscure or new technologies come in rather than just being 'the PHP guy' (though hey, that might be what you are looking for).
    http://www.infinite-media.net - Looking for portfolio work.

  14. #14
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    Thanks tcstatic and Vorsuc, I appreciate the comments. I'm not worrying about what pays the most, as I'm a computer science student and will probably just end up in software development anyway. I want to learn these things for my own satisfaction and also so I can develop (half?-) decent sites for clients.

  15. #15
    You can choose from the many courses here http://www.hwg.org/services/classes/

  16. #16
    If I where you I would first fine tune your basic HTML knowledge to very skilled knowledge according to the webstandards.

    Then since you say your graphic design skills are not that good start trying to look at other peoples work. Make some screenshots of websites you like open them up in photoshop (or another application, I just prefer this one) and enlarge the screenshot. Take a good look on how things are done and try to make them yourself. If you get stuck somewhere try searching for a tutorial (there are many out there).

    Start with some basic things like a header, a menu, some buttons etc. and work from there.

    Good luck

  17. #17
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    Definitely good advice Source Code, thanks! I decided my first project will be to redesign ChrisArmstrong.org - I've decided I don't want to use WordPress anymore and it will be a good starting point. Plus, I won't have to worry about letting someone else down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Source Code View Post
    Then since you say your graphic design skills are not that good start trying to look at other peoples work. Make some screenshots of websites you like open them up in photoshop (or another application, I just prefer this one) and enlarge the screenshot. Take a good look on how things are done and try to make them yourself. If you get stuck somewhere try searching for a tutorial (there are many out there).

    Start with some basic things like a header, a menu, some buttons etc. and work from there.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Source Code View Post
    If I where you I would first fine tune your basic HTML knowledge to very skilled knowledge according to the webstandards.
    There's little point. Current web standards are never fully supported, new ones are always being hammered out making the old ones obsolete.

    Sure, understand them, be familiar with them, but don't kill yourself over it.
    http://www.infinite-media.net - Looking for portfolio work.

  19. #19
    Please be adviced that what I mentioned is for training purposes only. It's not advisable to use parts of other peoples work (even if you made them and used the original as example). But I guess you understand this allready.

    I really think you will learn a lot from doing things this way, and especially when you enlarge screenshots you can really see how things are done. For example sometimes a 1 pixel line can make a very big change in a design.

  20. im in the same boat as you, my html and css skills are perfect i can code html with css as well as having some php knowledge. But these coding skill don't mean that I can make visually pleasing sites.

    ive come to realise that html is only half of designing a website, the other half is graphic design and in some case you have to html code around you graphics. I decided a while back when i get time i would go back and try to learn the workings of graphic design, by making simple background, user bars, logos ect navigational bars, in hope i can then use the knowledge of graphical design as well as my html coding knowledge to make "pretty" websites and until then none of my sites can really progress.

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