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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    9,264
    Steadfast sent the suspension warning out.
    I don't see how it's their fault that you don't check your e-mail or didn't properly whitelist their domain :/

    PEBKAC.
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  2. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    2,638
    Quote Originally Posted by tsj5j
    The minimum they should have done before unplugging is snail mail. Telephone would be a plus.
    They sent an email, why would they need to call or send snail mail?

    Check your email, watch your servers. If your server is down, obviously you need to look into the issue. When you're not able to access the server, that's when you give them the call or submit a ticket asking what's up.

    Dedicated servers are their business as shared hosting is ours. We're not going to make a call when somebody doesn't pay for their account. We're going to suspend the account and maintain data for as long as the grace period in our TOS states.

    You then paid via credit card and they brought your server back online.

    I don't see what the problem is here. You had a billing issue, it was resolved.
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  3. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,957
    OK, I have been sent the ticket #, etc. so I should have enough information to make a proper response.

    First of all, this issue was resolved within a matter of hours almost 1 year ago, which then confuses me as to why this is being brought up now. Since then we have completely over-hauled our billing system and policies.

    Even then, almost a year ago, we had sent the customer a two week notice of shutting down their account, which we allowed because we knew our billing system wasn't perfect. In addition, emails were sent as a receipt when the credit card was charged and the customer had full access to the billing area which showed invoices, billing information on file, payment history, etc.

    The issue I had with this incident is that the customer was expecting us to assume full responsibility for the issue. I simply made it clear that we were not fully responsible, though I did admit, almost immediately, that there seems to have been an error made in that the credit card information had not been entered or had been deleted. I never accused, or even came close to accusing, the customer for removing the information. For this incident to happen, it took participation from both sides.

    The credit card information never appeared on his account. It had gone through the initial billing, which is done manually, but for some reason was never copied over to his account. This error was our fault, but also means that the client never checked to make sure his billing information was ever added to the account, which would have been easy to check by logging into the billing system.

    The invoice was sent, and according to his ticket it seems he had received the invoice, as he quoted a line from the invoice, stating the due date, etc. so he was fully aware of the due date. There was no credit card receipt sent showing a charge and his credit card statement would have not shown a charge.

    An overdue notice was sent, giving 14 day notice of shutdown. That gave the customer two weeks to check the billing area for the charge going through, to check his credit card statement, to contact us about an issues, to check the billing system to make sure his billing information was correct, etc.

    I admitted our error about the number not being on file in the first email response, but the customer was persistent to place all the blame on us, unwilling to accept any responsibility. Throughout the ordeal I calmly and honestly answered all of the customer's questions, whether he liked the answer or not, such as our policy to send one past due notice, etc.

    In review, we were limited by a limited billing system, which only sent one overdue notice, which is why that was our policy. Since then we have changed things greatly, moving to a new billing system, sending multiple overdue notices, etc. The issue was resolved within a matter of hours, even though it was brought up outside of sales/billing hours.
    Last edited by KarlZimmer; 03-10-2007 at 09:31 PM.
    Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
    VMware Virtual Data Center Platform

    karl @ steadfast.net - Sales/Support: 312-602-2689
    Cloud Hosting, Managed Dedicated Servers, Chicago Colocation, and New Jersey Colocation
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  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,957
    Quote Originally Posted by Rotwang
    The weak point is your attitude toward your customers, even when it's evident that you've screwed up.

    You gave me "Well it's the customer's responsibility to maintain their billing information." after you knew your billing system was at fault.

    THAT is the problem, Karl, that is not an attitude many people will want in a hosting provider.

    EDIT: I prefer to email it. I emailed it to the address in your sig,

    rw
    I was simply stating the terms you agreed to, when you signed up, in our own terms of service. It was clear to me that you had never checked to make sure your billing information was accurate.

    The lines, right from the Terms of Service, state:

    "It is the responsibility of the client to assure that the complete contact and billing information on-hand is up-to-date and accurate, including full mailing address. Steadfast Networks will contact users via the email addresses and/or phone numbers entered by the user and will not be held responsible for the accuracy of this information. Steadfast Networks provides a direct way for all users to verify this information through the control panel."

    AND

    "All dedicated server and colocation customers will receive invoices 6-7 days before the due date. After the due date, there is a 7 day grace period in which to fully pay the invoice. If payment is not made, or other adequate arrangement put in place, the system(s) will be promptly shutdown after the 7th day. The system will be maintained in full working order, with the original data, for a period of at least one additional week. The customer is fully responsible for making sure payment is made in a timely manner and is fully responsible for keeping accurate billing information on file."

    I wasn't going to lie to you and tell you that the customer has no responsibility to verify information, etc. and as I've stated, I definitely did accept some responsibility, as you confirmed with your statement from closing the ticket, "SFN admitted everything I wanted them to."

    If you don't agree to our terms, then don't sign-up for our service and/or contact us to see if we can get you adjusted terms, which we have gladly done in several cases.
    Last edited by KarlZimmer; 03-10-2007 at 09:40 PM.
    Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
    VMware Virtual Data Center Platform

    karl @ steadfast.net - Sales/Support: 312-602-2689
    Cloud Hosting, Managed Dedicated Servers, Chicago Colocation, and New Jersey Colocation
      0 Not allowed!

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer
    First of all, this issue was resolved within a matter of hours almost 1 year ago, which then confuses me as to why this is being brought up now.
    I choose when I am going to use my precious time to inform the web hosting community of bad service. The recent bad press godaddy received for only sending one single warning email made me think of the time steadfast sent me only one single email when the problem was ultimately steadfast's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer
    I never accused, or even came close to accusing, the customer for removing the information.
    Nor have I said you did here.


    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer
    The credit card information never appeared on his account. It had gone through the initial billing, which is done manually, but for some reason was never copied over to his account. This error was our fault, but also means that the client never checked to make sure his billing information was ever added to the account, whih would have been easy to check by logging into the billing system.
    Again, I go back to my statement in the orginal post. To all you customers reading this- how often do you spontaneously decide to log into your hosts billing system solely to check and make sure that haven't forgotten your billing information?

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer
    An overdue notice was sent, giving 14 day notice of shutdown. That gave the customer two weeks to check the billing area for the charge going through, to check his credit card statement, to contact us about an issues, to check the billing system to make sure his billing information was correct, etc.
    Yep, one single email, as I stated in my original post. (And fyi for others, the server was shutdown more than two weeks after the notice, just for the record. Might've been like 19 or 20 days.)

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer
    I admitted our error about the number not being on file in the first email response, but the customer was persistent to place all the blame on us, unwilling to accept any responsibility. Throughout the ordeal I calmly and honestly answered all of the customer's questions, whether he liked the answer or not, such as our policy to send one past due notice, etc.
    Are you sure your last name isn't Rove? You're so good at spin, Karl. What our debate was about was not whether or not I accept "any responsibility", after all I acknowledged that you did send the one single warning email, both in the ticket and here. The debate was about whether or not your policy of "one single email warning" was a good one or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer
    In review, we were limited by a limited billing system, which only sent one overdue notice, which is why that was our policy. Since then we have changed things greatly, moving to a new billing system, sending multiple overdue notices, etc. The issue was resolved within a matter of hours, even though it was brought up outside of sales/billing hours.
    In review, SFN defended their "one single email" policy, and does not refute any fact of my original post. If you want a host that thinks it's just fine to send exactly as much warning as godaddy just got bad press for doing, then go with SFN.

    A new billing system is great, but the old attitude clearly remains.
      0 Not allowed!

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer
    "It is the responsibility of the client to assure that the complete contact and billing information on-hand is up-to-date and accurate, including full mailing address. Steadfast Networks will contact users via the email addresses and/or phone numbers entered by the user and will not be held responsible for the accuracy of this information. Steadfast Networks provides a direct way for all users to verify this information through the control panel."
    No part of any of this debate, nor the debate on the ticket, was about your terms. You're absolutely acting within the confines of your terms. Show me where I ever said otherwise. Just like I'd be acting within the law to scream at every customer that walks into my store. The debate is whether or not your policy is a GOOD policy or sorely inadequate.

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer
    If you don't agree to our terms, then don't sign-up for our service and/or contact us to see if we can get you adjusted terms, which we have gladly done in several cases.
    FYI, no part of your terms say I get only one email. They don't say I get more than one, so you're still within your terms, but they don't say I get only one and no phone call either. And as I said in the ticket:

    "I DID provide you with correct billing information and you FORGOT it."

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer
    ...I definitely did accept some responsibility, as you confirmed with your statement from closing the ticket, "SFN admitted everything I wanted them to."
    Yea, after having to debate it for about 20 emails, I got steadfast to admit everything I wanted them to.
      0 Not allowed!

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,957
    Quote Originally Posted by Rotwang
    I choose when I am going to use my precious time to inform the web hosting community of bad service. The recent bad press godaddy received for only sending one single warning email made me think of the time steadfast sent me only one single email when the problem was ultimately steadfast's fault.
    As I already stated, that GoDaddy issue has nothing to do with this one. You are fixated on a very minor point of the GoDaddy article, when it is obvious the things I brought up before are the major issues. Here, your service was affected for hours, not permanently, and this can in no way be seen as maliciously terminating service for our own financial gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotwang
    Nor have I said you did here.
    Then your quote, "In arguing with them, I trapped them before they could accuse me of deleting the cc data." is simply misleading....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotwang
    Again, I go back to my statement in the orginal post. To all you customers reading this- how often do you spontaneously decide to log into your hosts billing system solely to check and make sure that haven't forgotten your billing information?
    So basically you're saying you can just pick and chose the Terms of Service which you chose to follow? This isn't like your information was removed after months of service, it was never in the system since your account was opened. I do not find it to be that unreasonable for someone to make sure the information is valid upon opening an account, and I do that all the time. When I change things to automatic billing from my bank I always check a couple days after entering the information to make sure it is logged in properly and then to see if that first payment goes through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotwang
    Yep, one single email, as I stated in my original post. (And fyi for others, the server was shutdown more than two weeks after the notice, just for the record. Might've been like 19 or 20 days.)
    Yes, we gave you even more time than we said we would and yes, we sent one single past due notice. My friend has had his phone turned off for not paying, after just one past due notice. I once had my gas turned off even though they never even sent an initial invoice. The issue has been resolved, the practices in place have even been fully changed, etc. This happened almost one year ago...



    Quote Originally Posted by Rotwang
    Are you sure your last name isn't Rove? You're so good at spin, Karl. What our debate was about was not whether or not I accept "any responsibility", after all I acknowledged that you did send the one single warning email, both in the ticket and here. The debate was about whether or not your policy of "one single email warning" was a good one or not.
    That is what your point is in this thread, but if that is what your point was in the initial ticket, then I apologize, but that wasn't clear to me. First you said we didn't send any warning, then you just asked for clarification if we sent one email, that was the only mention I see of the issue of only sending one email. Your main focus of the ticket was definitely the fact that the credit card information had not been on your account.

    I never once debated in that ticket that the one ticket before suspension was a good policy. I admit, that wasn't a perfect policy, but with the billing system we had in place, that is what we lived with, and that system was apparently fine for 99% of our customers. 99% isn't good enough for us, and that is much of the reason we have now switched to a completely new billing system.

    Here is the only mention of you directly questioning our "one single email" policy: "Do you admit that you shut down my server with only one email of warning?"

    My response was, "I have stated many times that we sent you one email, stating that your account was overdue, which issued a warning that it would be shutdown in 14 days if it were not paid for."

    Neither you nor I said anything else about that "one single email" issue until your final ticket response, after which you immediately closed the ticket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotwang
    In review, SFN defended their "one single email" policy, and does not refute any fact of my original post. If you want a host that thinks it's just fine to send exactly as much warning as godaddy just got bad press for doing, then go with SFN.
    I stated that that was our policy, that is all. That was our policy at the time, was I to just lie to you and say it wasn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotwang
    A new billing system is great, but the old attitude clearly remains.
    I am fine being known as aving an "attitude" of simply telling the truth, saying things as they are. I told you our company policy, I referenced our terms of service, I honestly answered all your questions, and I admitted we made an error.
    Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
    VMware Virtual Data Center Platform

    karl @ steadfast.net - Sales/Support: 312-602-2689
    Cloud Hosting, Managed Dedicated Servers, Chicago Colocation, and New Jersey Colocation
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