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  1. #26
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    Well, I agree about hate and killing. The Bill of Rights is an interesting and unique document, you should check it out. Basically, it is what differentiates us from all other countries.

  2. #27
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    Originally posted by jason_nash
    Mike.......I didn't mean to be volatile at first and insinuate that you were a terrorist supporter.......it's just that you said you would go and sue the company........well you are a host, right? If some supposed " al quida " site poped up on one of your servers and the FBI got involved, would you want to be sued for teminating the client?
    I totally agree on the freedom of speach thing.....I mean that is one of the core beliefs our country was founded on.......However when you don't even live here and you are acessing an American network and posting crap about praying for the destruction of America I don't think that really falls under the constitution. Then again these are just my opinions.

    Jason
    If the FBI came and said that they wanted access to my servers, I would say, where is your Warrent, upon presenting the warrent, I would grant them access to the specified areas of the warrent ( I'm not giving up my other clients right's ) and nothing else.

    now al quida site shows up and is covered under the warrent, I have to provide the services based on the terms of the warrent, I have no choice. I could not even exersise my business right's to terminate them by not renueing them on a monthly basis. But let's say it's just someone call al quida ( heck there are alot of funny names out there so) , and it's his business, could you by your standards terminate his business if he's done nothing wrong.

    For me this is a huge problem, because it basically falls along those lines of : am I a patriot, or do I believe in the constitution. Remmember sometimes following the terms of the constitution will seem to be unpatriotic. Being a first generation american ( where my parents came from was a military government without any rights) , we were drilled daily from our birth (in NYC), that we have rights and how to defend them and never to loose them. ( still amazes me that over 50% of the USA population does not vote )

    Your last line is a general misunderstanding. american or non-american on USA Soil or properties are protected by our bill of rights and constitution. I believe that was placed to the test in the 90"s when a non-US citizen was arrested in California and was not read there Maranda Rights. And also another case where taxpaying non-citizens we requesting the right to send there children to school ( migrant labors if I recall correctly ). Also in the 80's we had the flag burning issues, It is your right to burn your own american flag, but it is an unpatriotic act. and patriotism is not something the government should have to look at. The last time that the USA government sugjest you had to be a patriot was durring the Macarthy and his hunts to destroy Commies.
    I am Mike From ADEHOST.Com, Multidomain Windows hosting with Cold Fusion and ASP and Dot.NET Also offering multi-domain Unix hosting. silently, each one should ask, Have I done my daily task. Have I kept my honor bright, can I sleep without guilt tonight. Have I done and have I did, everything, to be prepared. - our motto to maintain services.

  3. #28
    Boy, I feel sorry for Albert Qaida (I checked the local phone book and he was listed)

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Parsippany, NJ
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    117
    Why should we continue to be all PC and in turn get kicked in the teeth for it?
    Who was it that said "Freedom is a struggle"?

  5. #30
    Your business, your server, you decide who gets to use it and who doesn't. Free speech rules DON'T apply on a private piece of equipment.

    Very simple. TOS or not, it just doesn't matter.

    Just like with a retail storefront -- if you don't want to serve a customer, kick them out. The law is on YOUR side, not theirs. So long as you give them a full refund for any services not paid for but not provided, you've nothing to worry about.

    Your customers have no rights to use your equipment for their purposes other than the rights you give them. Period.
    I thank my Lord for all His wonderful blessings.

  6. #31
    Originally posted by the-admiral
    I think this is a matter of free speech.
    Not really. When you own a server, your customers only have the right to express what views you allow them to express there. If a guy walks into your retail store and starts holding up signs of aborted fetuses and claims he has the right to do so because he just bought a pack of gum, give him back his 50 cents and boot him out the front door...
    I thank my Lord for all His wonderful blessings.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
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    1,152
    Originally posted by hostpath.com
    Your business, your server, you decide who gets to use it and who doesn't. Free speech rules DON'T apply on a private piece of equipment.

    Very simple. TOS or not, it just doesn't matter.

    Just like with a retail storefront -- if you don't want to serve a customer, kick them out. The law is on YOUR side, not theirs. So long as you give them a full refund for any services not paid for but not provided, you've nothing to worry about.

    Your customers have no rights to use your equipment for their purposes other than the rights you give them. Period.
    retail store front:
    You may not discriminate on race, creed or color even smell ( ask delta airlines about that one ), but you can prevent people based on dress codes.

    for free speach:
    your TOS / AUP has to define what is the restricted speach. otherwise they are in the clear. that's why we got in big letters "no adult content " to prevent adult content

    as for the term "it just does not matter", Yes it does, maybe you are lucky in your time that nobody wishes to take action against the terms that you offer. But if I was a client of a host that I did business with and they decieded to pull the plug because I posted something that they did not like ( example would be a view point on current state of affairs ) I believe I have enough legal grounds to make you provide me with my hosting services back without retaliations.

    the point I'm making is that most people don't know what thier rights are, I happen to be one of the few that has a general idea of what I can not do, and when someone does those things to me I check with my lawyer to counter.

    good example is the public park we have in our area, I go with my daughter there all the time. sometimes there are people speeding like mad ( well it is NJ ). SO what have I done, called the local mayor, had him place one of those speed indicators at the corner of the park, and attached a video camera, now the town will write about 5 tickets a day easy of people that are traveling 40mph in a 25mph zone. Now this took me 3 months to get done, and required alot of handshaking and going to the weekly town meetings. But I exersized my rights and got it OKed.

    Mike
    I am Mike From ADEHOST.Com, Multidomain Windows hosting with Cold Fusion and ASP and Dot.NET Also offering multi-domain Unix hosting. silently, each one should ask, Have I done my daily task. Have I kept my honor bright, can I sleep without guilt tonight. Have I done and have I did, everything, to be prepared. - our motto to maintain services.

  8. #33
    Originally posted by ADEhost
    But if I was a client of a host that I did business with and they decieded to pull the plug because I posted something that they did not like ( example would be a view point on current state of affairs ) I believe I have enough legal grounds to make you provide me with my hosting services back without retaliations.
    I can see why you might think so, but in point of fact you don't. You'll take your refund and find another host. And no court will force me to provide you service against my will. But I respect your right to operate your business in any way you like, so if you want to be ultra conservative and let the customers dictate how you run it, that's perfectly okay. And I'm truly not being flippant or sarcastic.

    Originally posted by ADEhost
    the point I'm making is that most people don't know what thier rights are, I happen to be one of the few that has a general idea of what I can not do, and when someone does those things to me I check with my lawyer to counter.
    Their rights certainly don't include forcing me to accept their business. It simply can't be done, no matter what legal rights they THINK they have. They don't.

    Originally posted by ADEhost
    good example is the public park we have in our area, I go with my daughter there all the time. sometimes there are people speeding like mad ( well it is NJ ). SO what have I done, called the local mayor, had him place one of those speed indicators at the corner of the park, and attached a video camera, now the town will write about 5 tickets a day easy of people that are traveling 40mph in a 25mph zone. Now this took me 3 months to get done, and required alot of handshaking and going to the weekly town meetings. But I exersized my rights and got it OKed.
    Good deal. Of course it has absolutely NO relationship to the hosting issue, but I'm all for making PUBLIC areas safe for kids as I have two of my own. Glad to hear you got something like that done.
    I thank my Lord for all His wonderful blessings.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
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    Originally posted by hostpath.com


    I can see why you might think so, but in point of fact you don't. You'll take your refund and find another host. And no court will force me to provide you service against my will. But I respect your right to operate your business in any way you like, so if you want to be ultra conservative and let the customers dictate how you run it, that's perfectly okay. And I'm truly not being flippant or sarcastic.

    Their rights certainly don't include forcing me to accept their business. It simply can't be done, no matter what legal rights they THINK they have. They don't.

    Good deal. Of course it has absolutely NO relationship to the hosting issue, but I'm all for making PUBLIC areas safe for kids as I have two of my own. Glad to hear you got something like that done.
    Hostpath. I no doubt believe tht you think that, and I'm sure you would comply to that belief, but you have to consider the legal aspects of running a business.

    http://smallbiz.biz.findlaw.com/book/17.D..html

    NJ is tough with the consumer laws that is why we are trying to protect ourselves with a properly designed TOS /AUP

    Mike
    I am Mike From ADEHOST.Com, Multidomain Windows hosting with Cold Fusion and ASP and Dot.NET Also offering multi-domain Unix hosting. silently, each one should ask, Have I done my daily task. Have I kept my honor bright, can I sleep without guilt tonight. Have I done and have I did, everything, to be prepared. - our motto to maintain services.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    305
    Freedom of speech is alive and well, and is protected under law.

    Freedom of speech, however, does not infringe on my right to decide what I want and don't want on my server. Freedom of speech doesn't guarantee that the speaker will find a medium to speak. My local newspaper is not obligated to publish my opinion.

    If a group has something they want to say, their freedom of speech is protected. They may have to take their business elsewhere, but they can say it.

    If no-one will take their business, they can buy a server and put it in their basement.

    Thus, their freedom of speech is fully protected.

  11. #36
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    Dec 2001
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    New Jersey
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    Originally posted by Lurleene
    Freedom of speech is alive and well, and is protected under law.

    Freedom of speech, however, does not infringe on my right to decide what I want and don't want on my server. Freedom of speech doesn't guarantee that the speaker will find a medium to speak. My local newspaper is not obligated to publish my opinion.

    If a group has something they want to say, their freedom of speech is protected. They may have to take their business elsewhere, but they can say it.

    If no-one will take their business, they can buy a server and put it in their basement.

    Thus, their freedom of speech is fully protected.
    Hi there, we are no longer talking about Freedom of speach as defined within the consitution but along the business end with the rights of consumers vs. the rights of business owners. But your view are no the less right as long as you don't deal with the public.

    Once you deal with the public you are forever having to deal with the laws established within your community, county, state and federal. but my point so long ago lost within this thread that, AS a business owner, has to define, what is tolarable if one is to prevent speach from happening within an envionment. News papers have advertising guildlines of what they will and will not print, same thing must be created within the web hosting community, what can and can not be tolerated.

    good example of what could happen is Yahoo and the Nazi issue they had with france. Yahoo france can not have any nazi stuff, but yahoo USA can. French government tried to force it to exsist everywhere within the yahoo community but they found out they could not. Point is that Yahoo had to conform to that nations law because they had a physical point there. Same thing with a hosting company, you must comply with the rules and regulation of the nation and state in question you do in business.

    mike
    I am Mike From ADEHOST.Com, Multidomain Windows hosting with Cold Fusion and ASP and Dot.NET Also offering multi-domain Unix hosting. silently, each one should ask, Have I done my daily task. Have I kept my honor bright, can I sleep without guilt tonight. Have I done and have I did, everything, to be prepared. - our motto to maintain services.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    305
    If I understand what you're saying, everyone -- including you -- agree that hosts have a right to disallow certain content on their site if they wish, as long as they don't create a pattern of discrimination against race, color, sex, or creed.

    So what you're saying is that you prefer to run a business that allows all content? If that's it, I have no beef . I fully respect the right of other companies to host the most deplorable of sites -- but I will keep to my credo that allows me to potentially shut down a site for its content (which I have not yet done in my nearly 3 years of hosting).

  13. #38
    Originally posted by ADEhost
    Hostpath. I no doubt believe tht you think that, and I'm sure you would comply to that belief, but you have to consider the legal aspects of running a business.
    Owning and operating several businesses, both online and offline, I fully consider the legal aspects of running a business. And I stand firmly behind what I've already said. In fact, just to be sure, I ran this discussion past two attorneys: my own, and my neice (she graduated Harvard and practices corporate law) and they both seem to agree with my opinion on the issue.

    So long as the hosting fees are refunded, you may terminate at will and there is no issue.
    I thank my Lord for all His wonderful blessings.

  14. #39
    Originally posted by Lurleene
    Freedom of speech, however, does not infringe on my right to decide what I want and don't want on my server. Freedom of speech doesn't guarantee that the speaker will find a medium to speak. My local newspaper is not obligated to publish my opinion.
    You are exactly right. Renters of space on your server have no rights of free expression whatsoever except those you give them. The only protections they have are laws that prevent you as the business owner from ripping them off. If you want to terminate anyone's account, for any reason or no reason, just shut them down -- but refund their hosting fee and they have no legal recourse.

    They may THINK they do, but they don't.
    I thank my Lord for all His wonderful blessings.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Texas, USA
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    ADEHost, I only have one comment...

    speech, not speach...
    "The integrity of a man may be determined by the foundation he builds from the bricks life throws at him." KORBEK

  16. #41
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    lol @ korbek, about time someone did correct this issue

  17. #42
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    Texas, USA
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    Just doing my part for free speech! I figure if we are going to express our opinions, we should at least do it properly...
    "The integrity of a man may be determined by the foundation he builds from the bricks life throws at him." KORBEK

  18. #43
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    Apr 2002
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    The West
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    Chicken posted a link to ieSpell the other day. Great little program, if you remember to use it.

  19. #44

    WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO TERMINATE ANYONE!!!!!!!!

  20. #45
    I like:

    "We preserve the write to exterminate everyone"

  21. #46
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    Dec 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
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    Originally posted by korbek
    ADEHost, I only have one comment...

    speech, not speach...
    thank you for correcting my mistakes.

    the good habit of knowing 3 tongues fluently, sometimes ( well more like frequently ) causing me to misspell words. Plus where I grew up we had to learn about 7 different languages otherwise we would not have our evening meal at the table. So imaging 16 kids ( boys and girls ) eating at different houses every night 6 nights a week with the requirements of learning the languages and customs.

    To this day we all keep in touch and have very fond memories of my childhood. During high school you could easily catch us all talking in many different languages and commenting about any party without outsiders learning anything. Interesting to note that if I could ever find a similar area again to live I would move my family their in a heart beat. I guess that's why my family never left there until we all grew up and left on our way. 16 years of the most pleasant memories.

    Mike
    I am Mike From ADEHOST.Com, Multidomain Windows hosting with Cold Fusion and ASP and Dot.NET Also offering multi-domain Unix hosting. silently, each one should ask, Have I done my daily task. Have I kept my honor bright, can I sleep without guilt tonight. Have I done and have I did, everything, to be prepared. - our motto to maintain services.

  22. #47
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    I noted your comment earlier about being a first generation American, where did your family live?

  23. #48
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    New Jersey
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    Originally posted by Rotifer
    I noted your comment earlier about being a first generation American, where did your family live?
    This could turn into a long story better done over brandy. To summarize;

    My family has 800 years of history mostly from Europe, I still carry a family signet ( coat of arms engraved within a ring and I fly my family colors along with the American flag, and yes I have a title). My family came to the USA in 1956 and 1957 from Cuba prior to the revolution. Upon my fathers legal (<---key word ) immigration, he end up in the west coast of the USA, where for the first year he sold flowers on street corners, then he worked as a sailing ship designer and carpenter ( not many Spanish speaking people are welcomed and are considered to be taking away jobs but if your university educated you will always find work). I was born in the sixties taught English as the first language, then Latin ( NOT Spanish ) as a second, during that time, My father was recruited to work for the US navy designing most of the European and Asian commissary stores ( old joke in the family is that he designed some admirals yacht, in return he was given a job and we moved to NYC). I could happy say that, going to my fathers office I got to enjoy the Brooklyn navy yards and enjoyed it. With great luck after my 5th birthday I ended up living in NJ, away from New York City but within a 40 minute bus ride.

    so that's only a drop, I have most of my diaries from my youth and that of most of my family past and the historical records of my family dating to the 12th century. One thing that is taught within my family for the last 200 years is the right not to discriminate. Due to the large amount of mixed blood within my family ( there are 5 distinct cultures the intermingle by the 1780's ) my great ...... grand father decreed that we should have no rights to judge another human being without legal grounds, he was later beheaded ( or hanged, or horse drawn, there are 6 accounts of the death but each one conflicts to the manner of the death ) because he was a nobleman by the French revolutionary committees around 1810-11. ( family clan then did a swift tactical retreat from then on into Prussia, Portugal, England and Spain )

    this could rattle on for hours and you would have to be in my living room to pull out maps and books ( this is why we learn Latin from youth, to read out past and not to make the same errors twice ) and rather large volumes of Brandy, Whiskey and Vodka.

    Mike
    I am Mike From ADEHOST.Com, Multidomain Windows hosting with Cold Fusion and ASP and Dot.NET Also offering multi-domain Unix hosting. silently, each one should ask, Have I done my daily task. Have I kept my honor bright, can I sleep without guilt tonight. Have I done and have I did, everything, to be prepared. - our motto to maintain services.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    415
    Seems to me like See Eye Host ran a press release as a cheap publicity stunt to make them look patriotic.
    Justin Bachus
    BlastHosting, LLC - Professional web hosting at a low price with
    PHP, MySQL, FreeBSD, and more!
    http://www.blasthosting.com

  25. #50
    Lots of stuff about "rights" here - but you can throw people out of your business if you don't like them, as long as they are not a protected class (race, gender, etc).

    Personally, I'd love to present a case before 12 of my peers, and see if Al Qaida could make them vote me liable for throwing them off my service. I don't think you could find a jury in this country that would award damages.

    Now, if somebody just terminated an account because it was Moslem or Arab, etc, that would be different. And, anyone who discriminates on those grounds SHOULD be taken to the cleaners!

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