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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_Clory
    that's a very good question. I have found that most Euro datacenters are bandwidth clogged anyways, and I have gotten better performance for a well setup datacenter in the USA or Canada then in Europe. Just a personal experience, however I can expect a psychotic insulted array of users that "just don't agree with that statement".
    A lot of providers in Europe try to offer cheaper pricing (does anybody remember dedibox.fr / bestofdata) but in turn have to oversell quite a bit - resulting in congestion during peak times. But premium providers do exist

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tical
    Like audio streaming, Video works in much the same way, in that it can tolerate packet loss and jitter quite well. I'm not sure why you have such an emphasis on quality.
    True, low bitrate streams can tolerate a small degree of loss, anything over 1.5-2% will make anything over 96Kbps unusable.

    If your target audience is overseas and your streaming bitrate is >64kbps, you really do need QUALITY (by that I generally mean they DON'T advertise here on WHT) service in Europe with good local peering.
    Fast Serv Networks, LLC | AS29889 | DDOS Protected | Managed Cloud, Streaming, Dedicated Servers, Colo by-the-U
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  3. #28
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    I'm not too sure I agree on the definition of PTP's premium network:

    traceroute to 82.163.112.1 (82.163.112.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
    1 209.9.225.94 (209.9.225.94) [AS29944] 9.879 ms 0.237 ms 0.195 ms
    2 TENGIGABIT-2-4.COLO1.ASH1.PULLTHEPLUG.COM (209.9.224.177) [AS29944] 0.265 ms 0.239 ms 0.220 ms
    3 g0-4-na22.b003364-1.iad01.atlas.cogentco.com (38.112.241.209) [AS174] 0.264 ms 0.336 ms 0.264 ms
    4 v3494.mpd01.dca02.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.5.41) [AS174] 0.750 ms 0.617 ms 0.653 ms
    5 v3498.mpd01.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.7.5) [AS174] 1.723 ms 1.290 ms 1.385 ms
    6 t7-2.mpd03.jfk02.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.5.245) [AS174] 26.774 ms 66.914 ms 185.442 ms
    7 t2-2.mpd02.lon01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.4.42) [AS174] 83.786 ms 84.081 ms 83.375 ms
    8 linx1.cr1-telhe-lon-uk.as15444.net (195.66.224.109) [AS5459] 86.375 ms 86.168 ms 86.571 ms
    9 82.163.0.4 (82.163.0.4) [AS15444] 86.845 ms 86.477 ms 86.377 ms
    10 fa-0-2.cr1.lc.dhm.uk.razorblue.net (82.163.169.97) [AS15444] 127.420 ms 127.758 ms 127.161 ms
    11 * * *
    12 * * *
    While I don't like to slate Cogent, because they are a good carrier, their UK peering leaves a lot to be desired, they often have capacity issues lasting a good few days causing packetloss / latency / low throughput.

    If you're looking for good connectivity to the UK your best bet is to find someone UK based with LINX peering.

    Dan
    █ Dan Kitchen | Technical Director | Razorblue
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tical
    Like audio streaming, Video works in much the same way, in that it can tolerate packet loss and jitter quite well. I'm not sure why you have such an emphasis on quality.

    I disagree - have you ever had your stream disconnected and had to wait for rebuffering - very frustrating. also on live video casts if he ever wants to do that - have 0 tolerance for it.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazorBlue - Dan
    I'm not too sure I agree on the definition of PTP's premium network:



    While I don't like to slate Cogent, because they are a good carrier, their UK peering leaves a lot to be desired, they often have capacity issues lasting a good few days causing packetloss / latency / low throughput.

    If you're looking for good connectivity to the UK your best bet is to find someone UK based with LINX peering.

    Dan

    Dan, that trace is not leaving PTP on Cogent. It's leaving via peering and hooking up with Cogent. Typically this happens when the target network takes a great preference to taking inbound on Cogent. But at least it's a straight shot to your network, which shares peering with Cogent.
    Last edited by FastServ; 01-27-2007 at 08:09 PM.
    Fast Serv Networks, LLC | AS29889 | DDOS Protected | Managed Cloud, Streaming, Dedicated Servers, Colo by-the-U
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastServ
    Dan, that trace is not leaving PTP on Cogent. It's leaving via peering and hooking up with Cogent. Typically this happens when the target network takes a great preference to taking inbound on Cogent. But at least it's a straight shot to your network, which shares peering with Cogent.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about. See AS29944<>AS174. There are no peers between the two ASes. PTP is a transit customer of Cogent.

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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailor
    I disagree - have you ever had your stream disconnected and had to wait for rebuffering - very frustrating.
    Sure I have.. but that can be caused by any number of things, i.e. a 30 second drop in connectivity at the other end.

    also on live video casts if he ever wants to do that - have 0 tolerance for it.
    In my experience, NSV (shoutcast) and Windows Media are impervious to this, regardless of whether live or otherwise. 1% packet loss should be acceptable. If you know of published test results that say otherwise, please share.

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  8. #33
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    I know a bunch of the guys at PTP...they have a great network, and good colo facilities. I think they still have some space in Equinix Ashburn (if you want to pay for it) but they also have a bunch of space in Reston, VA on the same network. Also Brian, Alex, and everyone else over there are some of the nicest people around.
    Joe Cooter - <jcooter(at)sliqua.com>
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tical
    In my experience, NSV (shoutcast) and Windows Media are impervious to this, regardless of whether live or otherwise. 1% packet loss should be acceptable. If you know of published test results that say otherwise, please share.
    I'd generally agree with this as well. Generally re-buffering and non-smooth playback only happen with an extended period of packet loss. The streaming media codecs take all of this into consideration, and generally handle themselves well.
    Joe Cooter - <jcooter(at)sliqua.com>
    Executive Vice President - Sliqua Enterprise Hosting, Inc.
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  10. #35
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    <edit> removed </edit>
    Last edited by FastServ; 01-28-2007 at 10:26 AM.
    Fast Serv Networks, LLC | AS29889 | DDOS Protected | Managed Cloud, Streaming, Dedicated Servers, Colo by-the-U
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazorBlue - Dan
    I'm not too sure I agree on the definition of PTP's premium network:

    While I don't like to slate Cogent, because they are a good carrier, their UK peering leaves a lot to be desired, they often have capacity issues lasting a good few days causing packetloss / latency / low throughput.

    If you're looking for good connectivity to the UK your best bet is to find someone UK based with LINX peering.

    Dan
    Dan,

    The only reason Cogent is being used for that particular connection on the Premium network is because it was determined that it was the best route to your particular location. Typically Cogent isn't used at all in the Premium network at all, but I will send this thread to Brian for more information regarding it.

    You speak of LINX peering, this is a traceroute from our Premium Network to LINX:

    traceroute to linx.net (195.66.232.45), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
    1 209.9.225.94 (209.9.225.94) [AS29944] 2.230 ms 0.448 ms 0.244 ms
    2 TENGIGABIT-2-4.COLO1.ASH1.PULLTHEPLUG.COM (209.9.224.177) [AS29944] 0.311 ms 0.258 ms 0.230 ms
    3 TENGIGABIT-2-1.COLO3.ASH1.PTPTECH.NET (209.9.224.5) [AS29944] 0.400 ms 0.341 ms 0.297 ms
    4 ae0-14.was10.ip.tiscali.net (69.31.30.18) [AS4436] 0.411 ms 0.367 ms 0.797 ms
    5 so-6-1-0.lon11.ip.tiscali.net (213.200.80.26) [AS3257] 77.669 ms 78.675 ms 77.638 ms
    6 g0-0-123.tr2.tfm7.thn.linx.net (213.200.77.46) [AS3257] 204.078 ms 217.287 ms 252.259 ms
    7 tan.linx.net (195.66.232.45) [AS5459] 82.833 ms 82.839 ms 83.032 ms
    Alexander McMillen
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  12. #37
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    Dec 2004
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    86
    Actually the reason that route is going out Cogent is because it's only being seen via Cogent,

    82.163.0.0/17

    We aren't receiving this from any other Transit than Cogent.

    ____________________________________________________
    Brian W. Gemberling

    CTO - PullThePlug Technologies, LLC <bwgember(at)ptptech.com>
    1-301-637-4360 - http://www.pulltheplug.com

    Quote Originally Posted by sliqua
    Dan,

    The only reason Cogent is being used for that particular connection on the Premium network is because it was determined that it was the best route to your particular location. Typically Cogent isn't used at all in the Premium network at all, but I will send this thread to Brian for more information regarding it.

    You speak of LINX peering, this is a traceroute from our Premium Network to LINX:

  13. #38
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    Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by rackguru
    Actually the reason that route is going out Cogent is because it's only being seen via Cogent
    Of the carriers AT&T, L3, GLBX, Savvis and its only being seen via Cogent? Not really sure what else you can do about that. Sounds like an issue with the end network not being well connected.

    Tom

    PS. I can see the route via BTN but its slower than going via Cogent.

    1 ge10-16.br02.ash01.pccwbtn.net (63.218.94.157) 0 msec 4 msec 0 msec
    2 ge2-2.br01.frf02.pccwbtn.net (63.218.14.58) [AS 3491] 96 msec 96 msec 100 msec
    3 de-cix1.cr1-telhe-lon-uk.as15444.net (80.81.192.71) [AS 6695] 96 msec 96 msec 96 msec
    4 82.163.0.4 [AS 15444] 92 msec 92 msec 96 msec
    5 fa-0-2.cr1.lc.dhm.uk.razorblue.net (82.163.169.97) [AS 15444] 136 msec 136 msec 136 msec
    6 * * *
    7 * * *
    8 * * *
    9 * * *
    10 *

  14. #39
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    UK
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    that's a very good question. I have found that most Euro datacenters are bandwidth clogged anyways, and I have gotten better performance for a well setup datacenter in the USA or Canada then in Europe. Just a personal experience, however I can expect a psychotic insulted array of users that "just don't agree with that statement".

    One thing to bear in mind is that the vast majority of Data Centres in the UK / Europe are Carrier Neutral. There will be 100s of ISPs in each DC, most of which will be running their own network. Just because ISP X in a particular DC doesn't have very good connectivity doesn't mean tht ISP Y in the same DC will have the same issues.

    The only thing I can recommend is asking lots of questions regarding their AS numbers, what type of routing equipment they're running, what connections that have to what carriers at what speeds - and what the average busy hour % available capacity is, what peering links they have and so on. You should also perhaps identify 5 or 6 end-user IP addresses that might connect to your servers and ask for traceroutes to those addresses.
    Robin Balen
    Gyron Internet Ltd - http://gyron.net/
    UK colocation, managed hosting and connectivity services with 100% uptime SLAs

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by rackguru
    Actually the reason that route is going out Cogent is because it's only being seen via Cogent,

    82.163.0.0/17
    Same here. We only see it via Cogent and not any of our 3 other transits.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhalligan
    Ahh. Man, Akamai bought up everybody, didn't they? Inktomi is gone, Digital Island got swallowed up by CW (which means they're gone), Speedera is gone.. In the end there can be only one CDN?
    There is always Limelight Networks (llnw.com) We have a OC-12 to them, they have a pretty good CDN and are a direct competitor to Akamai with better pricing... might be worth checking them out.
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  17. #42
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    You may also want to consider a datacenter that has InterNAP as when you buy from them you get roughly 6-8 different carriers.

    We use Colo4Dallas which has InterNAP (and in Dallas, InterNAP has paid transit with ATT, Sprint, UUNET/MCI, Cox, Verio, Cogent, Level 3 and SAVVIS) and there is also Level 3 in addition to InterNAP for redundancy and in case Level 3 is a better route.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDAWebServices
    Same here. We only see it via Cogent and not any of our 3 other transits.
    I am seeing you via cogent too, weird, this AS is pretty well connected (lots of LINX & Xchangepoint peers, NTT, Telia, C&W). You might want to talk to Netservices about peering - Sam Mortimer - samm[at]netservicesplc.com.

    Dan
    █ Dan Kitchen | Technical Director | Razorblue
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  19. #44
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    Might be more legwork than you're looking for, but just take a look at who's at the big european IX's and check for which of them is in North America.

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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0
    Latency *is* reduced through the peering
    Not always true. In my own experience, I have seen some routes to some ISPs that have shorter latency through Internap (which does not peer directly with those ISPs) than through our other providers that peer directly with that ISPs.
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