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Thread: PowerVps or MyriadNetwork
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01-26-2007, 12:48 PM #26WHT Addict
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When one of our clients came to us a couple of years ago needing a hosting package on a cpanel box (which we normally don't support), we decided to get them a VPS with myriad, and provide management/support for that VPS. I have to say, years later, our only major downtime was just a couple of days ago...and it was the fault of cpanel rather than anything wrong with Myriad's setup, and their support during the outage was extremely helpful. Even when the VPS was using insane amount of memory (close to 90% most of the time), it ran strong, stable, and we had absolutely no problems with it. Also, both myself and sliqua have toured their facilities, and they really spare no expense in putting together their VPS servers (or their other servers, actually). The quality shows.
Joe Cooter - <jcooter(at)sliqua.com>
Executive Vice President - Sliqua Enterprise Hosting, Inc.
1-877-4SLIQUA - http://www.sliqua.com - http://www.isyourmissioncritical.com
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01-27-2007, 08:08 PM #27New Member
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Also, with SLM it is much more forgiving when you hit your memory limits, and the process it uses to free or kill pids is overall better for the end customer.
My vps has not been upgraded yet,if i have problems like the other users
i will find a new vps provider.
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01-31-2007, 12:54 AM #28Junior Guru Wannabe
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"After reading powervps forums it looks like slm goes on a killing spree."
Indeed, and it can completely ruin your day.
I've optimized and got my memory usage down to 360, but I still occasionally go over 512 (my limit). Without swap and without burst, the VPS doesn't stand much chance.
SLM will ask nicely before killing things, but it's kinda like someone pointing a gun at your head, asking you get on the ground, then shooting you on your way down.
If the plan says 512 guaranteed and 2G burst. Don't think you will get much of the burst memory. you will get a little but for only a couple seconds. Certainly not enough to do a Mailscanner upgrade for example. Honestly, what does all that 2G burst do now that it has so much free time? Allow more VPS's per node?
And what happens if you are doing an apache upgrade or something else critical and SLM kills it mid-upgrade?
It's just too scary to contemplate, better to have more than enough memory and use that extra headroom as your new burst/swap. Of course that will cost more.
Is this scenario any different than a dedicated with swap? Would a dedicated with swap at least carry on, slowly, but carry on?
For context, yes i was down for 35min due to SLM, but with PowerVPS I've only had about 3 issues in a year and a half. It's just that this new lack of grace period for a burst scares me.... and costs me more money than it did before
Why the heck am I even writing, I don't know, maybe I'd just like to see the "burst" spec removed from the sales pages since it's now a little misleading and I feel like I doesn't apply anymore. Or maybe I'd like to see SLM tweaked to be a little more forgiving, like upto 5minutes forgiving... 3 minutes, 1 even?
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01-31-2007, 08:35 AM #29WHT Addict
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Regarding burst resources... you can certainly burst more than a few seconds.... how long and how much though depend on your memory usage. If you're using 255 of 256MB on a regular basis, then you'll not be able to burst as much or as long as someone who is using on average 150-160MB of ram.
I'm going to take an excerpt from a post made by Tony on our own forums regarding SLM and how it works, giving a few test examples.
First, we need to change two norms:
1) Guaranteed RAM is no longer called Guaranteed RAM as far as SLM is concerned. It is called Average Limit.
2) Burst RAM is no longer called Burst RAM, it is called Instant RAM Limit.
For the sake of being understandable, I'm going to stick with:
Average Limit and Burst Limit -- as this makes the most sense.
What is Average Limit? The average limit is the maximum amount of ram dedicated to your VPS.
What is Burst Limit? Burst Limit is the maximum amount of ram available for your VPS to use for short periods of time.
Ok, so, what is Average Usage? Average Usage is a ROLLING average memory usage. This means, that your Average Usage is everso slightly different to that value that free -m will spit out.
To put this into context, five values, with the last value being CURRENT usage:
135mb
270mb
325mb
303mb
250mb
135+270+325+303+250 = 1283
Average = Sum of all Values / number of values = 1283 / 5 = 256.6
So, above, the Average Usage, for the 5 measures (including current usage), is 256.6mb.
In this case, the VPS is using less than its Average Limit, however, the Average Usage over time is GREATER than the Average Limit, so SLM begins to initiate a request for processes to release memory.
Hopefully you all understand how Average Usage and Average Limit works.
Now, here comes Burst Usage and Burst Limit.
Burst Usage is NOT an average, it is the current Ram usage if GREATER than Average Limit.
Burst Limit is a hard limit that you can burst up to.
For arguments sake, lets take a 256mb Average Limit VPS, which has 1024mb Burst Limit:
Here, we'll pretend that VZ takes a measure every 1 second, as this makes the numbers easier to work with.
The number on the left, is the time, the number in the middle is the ram usage, the number on the right is the Average.
Let me say again, AVERAGE is not a factor in burst, except for the fact that if you go OVER the Average LIMIT, burst ram is then in use. The Average below is to show you what SLM is doing.
We're also going to pretend that SLM uses the last 2 seconds and the current second to get the average resource usage; althought it's a lot more complex than that -- think logarithmic scale.
SECONDS - Current Used - Average Used
VPS Turned on
0 - 60mb - 60mb
1 - 65mb - 62.5mb
2 - 62mb - 62.33mb
3 - 70mb - 65.667mb
4 - 67mb - 66.33mb
5 - 60mb - 65.667mb
-A program calls for a lot of ram suddenly (SpamAssassin)-
6 - 200mb - 109mb
7 - 210mb - 156.667mb
8 - 170mb - 193.33mb
-Program exits and releases used memory-
9 - 80mb - 153.33mb
10 - 90mb - 113.33mb
-Another program calls for a lot of ram suddenly-
11 - 150mb - 106.667mb
-VPS Starts to Burst-
12 - 270mb - 170mb
13 - 300mb - 240mb
-Program Exits-
14 - 80mb - 216mb
15 - 70mb - 150mb
16 - 65mb - 71.667mb
-Insert apache memory leaking-
-VPS Bursts-
17 - 512mb - 215.667mb
18 - 768mb - 448.33mb
-Average Limit is hit above-
19 - 1024mb - 768mb
-SLM Requests Apache to release memory usage (it's the largest memory user at this point)-
20 - 1024mb - 938.667mb
-SLM sends SIGTERM to Apache-
21 - 1024mb - 1024mb
-SLM sends SIGKILL to Apache-
22 - 65mb - 704.33mb
-SLM requests other processes free memory-
23 - 60mb - 383mb
-SLM sends SIGTERM to other processes-
24 - 50mb - 58.33mb
-End of Log-
As you can see above, it wasn't until apache went out of control that SLM stepped in and forced processes to exit to free up memory.
To answer your question regarding bursting directly; yes, if you are using less memory to start with, you will be able to burst longer. The main thing to take into account, however, is exactly how much memory you are bursting to. Bursting low amounts won't bring you over the Average Limit, bursting up to 1024mb, however, will.
I'm pasting the output below of some testing we did prior to launching SLM in regards to bursting. Both VEs are Power-1s -- 256mb RAM Avg Limit, 1024mb Burst Limit.
VE1 was using very little ram to start with:
-bash-2.05b# free -m
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 1024 93 930 0 0 0
-/+ buffers/cache: 93 930
Swap: 0 0 0
-bash-2.05b# ./a.out
Allocated 10485760 bytes
Allocated 20971520 bytes
Allocated 31457280 bytes
Allocated 41943040 bytes
Allocated 52428800 bytes
Allocated 62914560 bytes
Allocated 73400320 bytes
Allocated 83886080 bytes
Allocated 94371840 bytes
Allocated 104857600 bytes
Allocated 115343360 bytes
Allocated 125829120 bytes
Allocated 136314880 bytes
Allocated 146800640 bytes
Allocated 157286400 bytes
Allocated 167772160 bytes
Allocated 178257920 bytes
Allocated 188743680 bytes
Allocated 199229440 bytes
Allocated 209715200 bytes
Allocated 220200960 bytes
Allocated 230686720 bytes
Allocated 241172480 bytes
Allocated 251658240 bytes
Allocated 262144000 bytes
Allocated 272629760 bytes
Allocated 283115520 bytes
Allocated 293601280 bytes
Allocated 304087040 bytes
Allocated 314572800 bytes
Allocated 325058560 bytes
Allocated 335544320 bytes
Allocated 346030080 bytes
Allocated 356515840 bytes
Allocated 367001600 bytes
Allocated 377487360 bytes
Allocated 387973120 bytes
Allocated 398458880 bytes
Allocated 408944640 bytes
Allocated 419430400 bytes
Allocated 429916160 bytes
Allocated 440401920 bytes
Allocated 450887680 bytes
Allocated 461373440 bytes
Allocated 471859200 bytes
Allocated 482344960 bytes
Allocated 492830720 bytes
Allocated 503316480 bytes
Allocated 513802240 bytes
Allocated 524288000 bytes
Allocated 534773760 bytes
Allocated 545259520 bytes
Allocated 555745280 bytes
Allocated 566231040 bytes
Allocated 576716800 bytes
Allocated 587202560 bytes
Allocated 597688320 bytes
Allocated 608174080 bytes
Allocated 618659840 bytes
Allocated 629145600 bytes
Allocated 639631360 bytes
Allocated 650117120 bytes
Allocated 660602880 bytes
Allocated 671088640 bytes
Allocated 681574400 bytes
Allocated 692060160 bytes
Allocated 702545920 bytes
Allocated 713031680 bytes
Allocated 723517440 bytes
Allocated 734003200 bytes
Allocated 744488960 bytes
Allocated 754974720 bytes
Allocated 765460480 bytes
Allocated 775946240 bytes
Allocated 786432000 bytes
Allocated 796917760 bytes
Allocated 807403520 bytes
Allocated 817889280 bytes
Allocated 828375040 bytes
Allocated 838860800 bytes
Allocated 849346560 bytes
Allocated 859832320 bytes
Allocated 870318080 bytes
Allocated 880803840 bytes
Allocated 891289600 bytes
Allocated 901775360 bytes
Allocated 912261120 bytes
Allocated 922746880 bytes
Allocated 933232640 bytes
Allocated 943718400 bytes
Allocated 954204160 bytes
Allocated 964689920 bytes
Allocated 975175680 bytes
Allocated 985661440 bytes
Allocated 996147200 bytes
Allocated 1006632960 bytes
Terminated
As you can see, it was able to burst all the way up to 1gb of ram used, before SLM terminated the process.
VE2 was utilizing almost all of its Average Limit:
-bash-2.05b# free -m
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 1024 242 781 0 0 0
-/+ buffers/cache: 242 781
Swap: 0 0 0
-bash-2.05b# ./a.out
Allocated 10485760 bytes
Allocated 20971520 bytes
Allocated 31457280 bytes
Allocated 41943040 bytes
Allocated 52428800 bytes
Allocated 62914560 bytes
Allocated 73400320 bytes
Allocated 83886080 bytes
Allocated 94371840 bytes
Allocated 104857600 bytes
Allocated 115343360 bytes
Allocated 125829120 bytes
Allocated 136314880 bytes
Allocated 146800640 bytes
Allocated 157286400 bytes
Allocated 167772160 bytes
Allocated 178257920 bytes
Allocated 188743680 bytes
Allocated 199229440 bytes
Allocated 209715200 bytes
Allocated 220200960 bytes
Allocated 230686720 bytes
Allocated 241172480 bytes
Allocated 251658240 bytes
Allocated 262144000 bytes
Allocated 272629760 bytes
Allocated 283115520 bytes
Allocated 293601280 bytes
Allocated 304087040 bytes
Allocated 314572800 bytes
Allocated 325058560 bytes
Allocated 335544320 bytes
Allocated 346030080 bytes
Allocated 356515840 bytes
Allocated 367001600 bytes
Allocated 377487360 bytes
Allocated 387973120 bytes
Allocated 398458880 bytes
Allocated 408944640 bytes
Allocated 419430400 bytes
Allocated 429916160 bytes
Allocated 440401920 bytes
Allocated 450887680 bytes
Allocated 461373440 bytes
Allocated 471859200 bytes
Allocated 482344960 bytes
Allocated 492830720 bytes
Allocated 503316480 bytes
Allocated 513802240 bytes
Allocated 524288000 bytes
Allocated 534773760 bytes
Allocated 545259520 bytes
Allocated 555745280 bytes
Allocated 566231040 bytes
Allocated 576716800 bytes
Allocated 587202560 bytes
Allocated 597688320 bytes
Allocated 608174080 bytes
Allocated 618659840 bytes
Allocated 629145600 bytes
Allocated 639631360 bytes
Allocated 650117120 bytes
Allocated 660602880 bytes
Allocated 671088640 bytes
Allocated 681574400 bytes
Allocated 692060160 bytes
Allocated 702545920 bytes
Allocated 713031680 bytes
Allocated 723517440 bytes
Allocated 734003200 bytes
Allocated 744488960 bytes
Allocated 754974720 bytes
Allocated 765460480 bytes
Allocated 775946240 bytes
Allocated 786432000 bytes
Allocated 796917760 bytes
Allocated 807403520 bytes
Allocated 817889280 bytes
Allocated 828375040 bytes
Allocated 838860800 bytes
Allocated 849346560 bytes
Allocated 859832320 bytes
Allocated 870318080 bytes
Allocated 880803840 bytes
Allocated 891289600 bytes
Terminated
This process was terminated at under 900mb of ram utilized.
Hopefully, this illustrates exactly what SLM does, and the way that bursting works.
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02-13-2007, 05:50 AM #30Newbie
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Rob, I've been your customer for two years now as well...
...and as much as you'd love to justify this SLM thing and try to support your theories, there are two things to - practice and theory.
Theory: SLM manages everything nicely, you know how much RAM you are using and how much you have left... etc. Sounds nice. Hell, it looks even nice :-)
Practice: I've had a 6-month uptime with my last server (basic VPS Plan) in your company and was a happy camper. Running a bunch of web sites, cPanel, Spam Assasin... and not a single issue. Then came SLM. My server went down several times, had to reboot several times, had to send support tickets... and eventually they told me - you are using too much memory! (and what was happening the last 6 months when everything was going just fine?)
So I went ahead and started optimizing stuff:
- removed Spam Assasin
- removed some other stuff that consumed my memory
- went down to an average of 120-140 Megs of my guaranteed 256 MB.
So I thought I could sleep well at night.
Then last friday Cpanel update automatically launched. I woke up on Saturday... and had to reboot my server to get mail and other stuff working again...
So StingRay2k01 is absolutely right - with SLM in theory there is burst, but in practice there is no burst, no spoon.
Because how do you explain this - I'm using 120 megs of my memory, my cPanel wants to upgrade (and I have 1GIG burst right?) and SLM is killing the upgrade because I'm over the memory limits.
Oh yes, SLM is shooting straight in your head. That's for sure.
My question: is Myriad or Servint also using SLM? Are they planning to do so? Because if not, they have my business already.
P.S. Of course - I can always upgrade RAM and pay for it - but explain me why should I if I'm using on average 120 - 180 megs??? Just to be able to upgrade Cpanel from time to time?
P.P.S. Rob, I've loved your company's service and was really happy with PowerVPS, but let's face it - what I'm saying here are the facts and I'm seeing I'm not alone here... and you will lose customers because of SLM... do you really want that?
P.P.P.S. I've disabled automatic Cpanel upgrade and I'm even afraid to do it manually... I don't want SLM killing it in the middle of everything.
One last word: Rob, I'm saying this because I believe you want us customers as happy as before, but from my point of view - SLM does not work right - your point of view is obviously different.
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02-13-2007, 08:18 AM #31Web Hosting Guru
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Originally Posted by apimiguel
We are not using SLM and have no plans to start using it
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02-13-2007, 09:26 AM #32Newbie
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Great timing Thomas,
I'll go ahead and look at your offer :-)
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02-13-2007, 11:19 AM #33WHT Addict
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Hi there,
First, I'm sorry you've had issues with SLM. Of the THOUSANDS of customers on it now, only a handfull have had problems. We've been working with those customers to try and help them as much as possible.
I understand your frustration with having a lack of resources. However there are a few things that I'd like to note:
a) Burst resources has never been GUARANTEED. It's a freebie essentially.
b) If you're teetering 80-90% of the time at 250 of 256MB of memory, it's correct that you'll have very little burst time. If your average usage is 150MB, then you'll be able to burst for much longer.
I've personally sat in a VPS and watched someone go from 169MB of memory to 500MB and drop back down and watched this go on for several minutes as he had several crons that were updating a custom application.
Burst resources is not designed for you to run your website for hours on. It's for short spikes only. If your site cannot function without burst resources, then honestly you should be considering upgrading as you're using above your guaranteed limit. I know folks don't like hearing that at times. But if you're paying for 256MB of ram, but always using 300-350MB... how is that fair to the provider or other users on the hardware node with you?
I understand and sympathize that if you're using the majority of your resources that you won't have much potential to burst. However how would you feel if you on average never came close to your limit and the few times you needed to burst you could not because someone else on the node who was getting their full amount 100% of the time AND also using the burst resources all the time?
You should never plan to run your website from burst. It's not a good plan honestly and a recipe for problems later.
As a result of using SLM, we've had much better performance across the board. It's scheduler has done a much better job of managing resources and ensuring one VPS does not spike to a point of where it hurts everyone. Is SLM perfect? Absolutely not. Is it BETTER than the old system? Yes, it is.
(Now... that being said, it's NOT better for folks who spent a good chunk of time using more than their guaranteed resources.)
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02-13-2007, 06:51 PM #34Junior Guru
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I had been a very happy customer of powervps as well, until they implemented SLM. I have not slept for 3 weeks just worrying if the services have been shut down again and my client is mad.
My client was using the VPS for a static business site and 1 email account. The VPS kept shutting services down (http, email), which is very important for my client.
Spam Assassin and clamd were disabled. Still the problems continued. Support kept insisting that I use too many resources and I should upgrade. The VPS cant handle 1 static business site and 1 email account. No PHP or MySQL sites. Then whats the point in having a VPS?
Btw, I lost my client and got fired due to continuous server outage. I had this client for 3 years. Now its all over.
I feel bad because I have had a very happy time with powervps. This is not how I expected this partnership to end. I am gonna cancel my service with them tonight.
Sorry Rob.
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02-13-2007, 07:30 PM #35Junior Guru Wannabe
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Originally Posted by tpetersen
Do you have live phone support as well?
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02-13-2007, 07:32 PM #36Newbie
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Another unhappy PowerVPS customer here. I was reluctant to post anything until now because they have served me well for a long time now! But seeing all these other unhappy customers ever since this new setup, I couldn't help myself because it has been a nightmare for me the past few weeks. Every day or second day I have had to restart my VPS due to downtime, and the very few hosting customers I resell to are getting bloody frustrated. I am using less resources now then what I had used in the past and all of a sudden I need to upgrade from the 256Mb cpanel plan? It just doesn't make sense. The support is FANTASTIC they optimised the server for me, upgrading MySQL4 to 4.1 which apparently had memory leaks and was causing the memory issues, which still hasn't corrected the problem. Something is not right it's a little comforting to know others are experiencing memory issue problems too, I thought it was just me.
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02-13-2007, 07:32 PM #37WHT Addict
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Originally Posted by DOBrienAlexander McMillen
President and CEO - Sliqua Enterprise Hosting, Inc. - AS32740
Serving up scale and service since 2002. Is your mission critical?
1-877-4-SLIQUA - http://www.sliqua.com - http://www.isyourmissioncritical.com
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02-13-2007, 07:41 PM #38Junior Guru Wannabe
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Originally Posted by sliqua
Do you know if they sell just memory upgrades. I do not need a lot of disk space or even bandwidth but may need memory.
What I need is a near bulletproof solution.
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02-13-2007, 07:43 PM #39Junior Guru Wannabe
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Originally Posted by dcristo
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02-13-2007, 07:45 PM #40Newbie
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Originally Posted by DOBrien
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02-13-2007, 07:53 PM #41WHT Addict
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Originally Posted by DOBrienAlexander McMillen
President and CEO - Sliqua Enterprise Hosting, Inc. - AS32740
Serving up scale and service since 2002. Is your mission critical?
1-877-4-SLIQUA - http://www.sliqua.com - http://www.isyourmissioncritical.com
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02-13-2007, 07:53 PM #42Junior Guru Wannabe
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Originally Posted by dcristo
I need to hear more about them. I might order a Myriad account and see if it works, as a test.
You?
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02-13-2007, 07:55 PM #43Junior Guru Wannabe
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Originally Posted by sliqua
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02-13-2007, 08:03 PM #44Newbie
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Originally Posted by DOBrien
The Myriad Reseller 1 plan only hosts 50 domains so I think VPS is the only option, have to see.
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02-13-2007, 09:43 PM #45Junior Guru Wannabe
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Originally Posted by dcristo
Maybe it was me! Karm and all that!
Anyway, I have an e-mail in to Myriad to see if I can get more memory and not more space as well as to enquire about their monitoring services (if any). So when I get a reply to that, if it is good news, maybe I’ll get an account there and test. See if I cannot get something going right this week!
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02-13-2007, 11:39 PM #46Junior Guru Wannabe
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Originally Posted by dcristo
It happened to me once. I trimmed memory, put a script on to monitor memory usage and email me when it went over 512, and had PowerVPS upgrade me so I wouldn't crash again until I had resolved my memory usage.
It turns out I was regularly using over 512 (my limit at the time) so an upgrade was in order. With SLM it is easy to see that.
Really the only problems I have with SLM is the manner in which it was introduced (no ability to test for compliance before getting whacked), and the inability of SLM to avoid killing restart (SIM, chkservd) and cron services.
The first issue is water under the bridge, and the second... still hoping for a resolution.
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02-14-2007, 05:10 AM #47Newbie
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I just checked Myriad and Servint, both seem to be the same level of support as PowerVPS is offering and people look happy with them and both DON'T use SLM (I really mean it - PowerVPS does have great support and they are a great company - only their decision to move to SLM was not all that great for me and some other people out here).
Myriad seems to be little cheaper and give you more bandwidth for the buck...
I'll have a look again and decide this week where to go.
Rob, if you believe SLM is the way to go and it's works for your business, I totally respect that - it's your call. For me SLM has been a nightmare and I just don't want to live it all again so I'll have to go... still missing these good old days with you when I had a 6-month uptime with no issues and no support tickets... and no sleepless nights.
Having said that, I've been a very happy customer of PowerVPS and have to say their support and network is great. Just their decision to switch to SLM hasn't worked for me.
P.S. Just to clarify one thing - my VPS is 256MB (the basic one), it's currently using 160-200 MB of this memory - not more. The nightmare starts when a weekly Cpanel update starts because it needs more memory and when previously it was using burst memory, now it's being nuked by SLM and my server needs restarting. I disabled automatic cPanel update (WHM/Tweak settings + cron) and I'm afraid to launch manual update now...
That's all I have to say about this. Thanks.
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02-14-2007, 06:13 AM #48Newbie
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Now I'm on both PowerVPS and Myriad. I've been a PowerVPS customer for almost 2 years now. I've been very happy with them until they move to SLM.
I too, have horrible experience with SLM, just like everyone that reported having problem with it. In two years I've probably have about 5 support tickets, and everything solved promptly. I am on Power 1 with 256 RAM, have a few inactive sites, and one small vBulletin forum (40-50 members at the same time). After a couple of days with problems I decided I need a new host, so I went to Myriad. With them I pick the slightly bigger package, their small business VPS with 384MB RAM. I still have my PowerVPS account right now but only use it as FTP backup and DNS clustering. I plan to keep it until I'm sure that I won't have any problem with Myriad, after that probably I have to say goodbye to PowerVPS because I cannot afford to keep 2 VPS.
From the two weeks I've been with Myriad I have to say that I still prefer PowerVPS support, they are more helpfull IMHO, so I really hate to leave them. But even after I move my sites I still got mesages that cpanel failed. IMHO, with SLM, they should not offer Power 1 package with 256MB RAM with Cpanel/WHM.
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02-14-2007, 08:52 AM #49Aspiring Evangelist
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Originally Posted by adrianus
This is not a flee market. Or... maybe it is? <cliche>How much you pay is how much you get, fact.</cliche>■ Have a question?
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02-14-2007, 09:23 AM #50Web Hosting Master
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Originally Posted by adrianus
Cpanel & Whm + Forums or active website = 512ram *minimum*
It is not powervps or myriad, it is you. You need to pick a higher package.