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  1. #1

    Question Help, Reseller refuse to transfer hosting and domains

    We have 3 domains registered and hosted by a Singapore company, Cyberheart IT Online in January 2006 and they are very selective in replying to emails and they never responded to our query that another person was logged into our control panel (only one person has excess to the control panel except me).

    We asked Cyberheart to transfer 2 domains (the third we do not want anymore); one in december 21st of December 2006 and the other on 1st of January 2007. No reply on transfer of DNS or domains but received emails from Cyberheart asking us why and to renew with them as all our issues will be resolved by moving to another server followed by another email to say it will be easier on us to renew with them despite our saying NO everytime. Our DNS for one domian was redirected by Cyberheart to my new hosting company but the Authentication code was not released for the transfer of both domains.

    Our service contract with Cyberheart expires on 07/01/2007 and our sites were redirected to skenzo.com. I was informed by my new registrar and hosting company that they cannot transfer without the EPP key and ask me to renew my domains with Cyberheart so that we can keep the domains and then get the EPP key to continue the trasnsfer.

    We asked Cyberheart to renew our 2 domain registration on the 09 of January 2007 and to complet the transfer. Cyberheart renewed the domains but refused to transfer.

    We asked WEBNIC.CC (Cyberheart is a reseller for this registrar) to help and they sent an email to Cyberheart but Cyberheart claims we owe them money as a reason why the domains were not transfered. We sent WEBNIC.CC our correspondace between Cyberheart to WEBNIC.CC and they state that they cannot help as they do not want to interfere with their clients way of conducting business.

    We asked Cyberheart for the invoice so that we can pay; first they don't reply to our emails then Cyberheart asked us to pay SG$129 in a simple email for each domain renewed; 7.16 times more than what we were quoted, we challenged the amount and asked for an official amended invoice (not jsut an email line). Cyberheart again refuse to reply until 15th January when they ask us to pay SG$360.00 for domain hosting and SG$36 for the domains renewed.

    Can anyone tell me what we can do to get control of my domains other than pay the fluctuating amount Cyberheart wants? (please send it by email to me) and who we can approach to help.

    Thank you.

  2. #2
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    Were these "free" domains with hosting or you paid for the domains as part of a hosting package.? This could be why WEBNIC won't get involved.

  3. #3
    Thank you for your message. We signed up with Cyberheart IT Online for web hosting (from January 2006 until January 2007) and 3 domain registration and a sql database. Reseller Starter Plan (because we have new subsidiary companies every few months) Jan 06 to Jan 07 = $360.00, Add MS-SQL=$240.00, Domain Name Registration Jan 06 to Jan 07 $18.00x 3 = $54.00, Setup Fee =$30.00, Total SGD =$684.00.

  4. #4
    No they are not "free" domain with hosting.

  5. #5
    I trioed to visit their site, but it's down at the moment. Can't it explain everything? They are evidently having problems, I hope, when it's all over you could contact them prefeeably by phone and discuss the whole matter with the sales dep.

  6. #6
    I have made IDD calls to the person in charge Malcolm Oei and sent numerious emails to him. This is taken from his message to me after sending him repeated request to transfer "In order to avoid further incovenience, I would suggest that we transfer your domain to our newer server.
    This is a better and faster server. There is no additional charges."

  7. #7
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    BY not giving you the Authorisation codes the current registra are actually in breach on contract at the ICAAN level.
    They are allowed to refuse if you owe money on the account etc, however as long as it is all paid up they cannot refuse to give you this auth code.

    You really should point this out to them as I doubt they would want to lose reseller status which would be one penalty.
    It may also be worth contacting the ICAAN and explaining the situation.

  8. #8
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    What is the breakdown of the SG$360 and SG$36? Is that 1 year hosting paid in advance and registration for 2 domains? If you signed up on a 1 year hosting contract 1 year ago, and didn't change your terms, then, when renewal comes around, you a liable for another 1 years hosting in advance.

    If you didn't notify them of cancellation of hosting contract for the domain you are prepared to let expire, then you are liable for that 1 year hosting in advance and registration for that domain as well.
    Signature Under Construction.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by stu2
    What is the breakdown of the SG$360 and SG$36? Is that 1 year hosting paid in advance and registration for 2 domains? If you signed up on a 1 year hosting contract 1 year ago, and didn't change your terms, then, when renewal comes around, you a liable for another 1 years hosting in advance.

    If you didn't notify them of cancellation of hosting contract for the domain you are prepared to let expire, then you are liable for that 1 year hosting in advance and registration for that domain as well.
    If he signed up for 1 year of hosting when it runs out he's NOT liable for
    another year unless it's in a contract he signed, or he notified them he
    wanted it for another year..
    And if they accepted the money for the domains they can't hold them either.
    He should also be able to log in to the registra and change his own NS?
    if the domains in his name??
    He should also be able to get his own Auth. Codes for the transfer by logging
    in to his account at the Registra ..

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Bladerunner
    BY not giving you the Authorisation codes the current registra are actually in breach on contract at the ICAAN level.
    It's not that simple as some would like to believe.

    Cyberheart is a reseller for WEBNIC. The OP is a customer for Cyberheart.

    The OP's contract is with the reseller, not the registrar. In the absence of any kind
    of agreement between the OP and the registrar, they have little to no obligations
    to the OP at all.

    It boils down to the legal fine print, which some people don't appear to place any
    importance to at all.

    However, I'll give some tips based on personal experience dealing with this issue,
    and how my peers with other registrars handle it.

    Legal agreements "force" the registrar to refer the end-user to the reseller first for
    possible resolution. If the domain names are: a) registered to the end-user and
    not the reseller, and b) are fully paid, then the registrar can opt to assist the end-
    user if the latter has exhausted all means of trying to resolve their issues with the
    reseller
    .

    Depending on the registrar, they can either move the domain names to another of
    their resellers or into a direct account with them. But they'll do this only after the
    end-user completes their verification process to demonstrate legitimacy, yet also
    shield the registrar from liability with the reseller the end-user has problems with.

    But note conditions a & b I mentioned above. Because if neither one exists, then
    there's nothing you can do to force the registrar to do your will.

    Meanwhile, I wish the OP good luck in getting his/her issues resolved. Lord knows
    it's never easy, especially for the layperson who doesn't understand (or even give
    a damn) how this goes.

  11. #11
    Reply to Bladerunner -
    I have been in contact with Webnic.cc since the 20th December 2006, over 2weeks before the expiry of my domains (which means I do not owe Cyberheart any money until 07/01/2007 when the domains expired) and hosting contract with Cyberheart IT Online but WebNIC.cc have chosen to stay out of this as I owe Cyberheart money??? WebNIC.cc have been copied all the emails where I ask for an invoice to pay (yes, we were willing to pay what to pay Cyberheart for the renewal even though they refused to release the EPP code until domain expiry). Cyberheart asked us to pay 7.16 times what we use to pay them for the renewal. When we sent them the original quotation for their services Cyberheart changed the amount by email to S$360 for hosting and reverted the renewal fee to one that they quoted us initially (WEBNIC.CC was also in copy).

    I feel as an ICANN registrar WEBNIC.CC should step in to help but their excuse is they follow a B2B model and will not interfere with their clientís way of conducting business.

    Reply to stu2 - We originally signed up for a reseller plan consisting of SG$ 360.00 is for hosting of up to 10 domains, this should not be billed as we told Cyberheart that we do not want to continue with them from the 21/12/2006 and the original contract was due 07/01/2007 . SG$36 consist of SG$18.00 per domain Registration, we had to renew two domains when they expired in 07/01/2007, this happened when Cyberheart refused to provide EPP code for transfer.

    We explicitly told them by email that we have signed up with another company to provide hosting as we were not happy with their services on on the 21st of December 2006. When Cyberheart sent an email to ask us to again assuring us that a switch to their new server would solve all our problems - we said NO, we have paid the new company and ask them to do the transfer immediately. They sent another email to say it would be more convenient for us to just change to their new server, again we said NO.

    Cyberheart pulled out our websites on the 07/01/2007. We had disruptions to our emails as well. The DNS used is one that is given by our new hosting company.

    By Cyberheart's actions, the emails we sent and the phonecall we made to him we are sure we terminated our entire contract with Cyberheart.

  12. #12
    Dave Zan - The domains are registered with my company not to the reseller. One of the domains is trademarked.

    I have been in contact with Webnic.cc since the 20th December 2006, over 2weeks before the expiry of my domains (which means I do not owe Cyberheart any money until 07/01/2007 when the domains expired) and hosting contract with Cyberheart IT Online. WebNIC.cc have been copied all the emails where I ask for an invoice to pay (yes, we were willing to pay what to pay Cyberheart for the renewal even though they refused to release the EPP code until domain expiry).

    Please let me know what other alternatives I can explore to get the domains transfered. I don't know if I should send payment of S$36.00 for the 2 domain renewals even if I do not have the invoice. I really don't know what else I can do, any suggestions?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by mitciv
    we had to renew two domains when they expired in 07/01/2007, this happened when Cyberheart refused to provide EPP code for transfer.
    Just an FYI: there's an ICANN rule where domain names transferred to the gaining
    registrar within 45 days from their renewal dates won't be given an extra year. A
    thing you might want to keep in mind if you still insist on moving them out.

    WEBNIC's site finally came up for me as well. I found an interesting detail:

    http://www.webnic.cc/pso2.htm

    Registrants who buy or register WEBCC Services through this Program will be deemed to be customers of WEBCC. Accordingly, all of WEBCC's rules, policies, and operating procedures concerning Registrant applications, Registrant service, and sales of WEBCC's services will apply to those Registrants.
    This might...might...work in your favor. Worse comes to worse, seek legal advice.

    And could you stick to just one font type, please?

  14. #14
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    If they've expired. I'd definitely renew them. You'll be unable to transfer them without them being renewed, at the very least. You're debts for hosting probably will have to be paid too, but are probably negotiable if they're for future hosting.
    Signature Under Construction.

  15. #15
    Thank Dave, have noted your comments. How do I keep the fonts from changing when I cut and paste? -I don't see the difference on screen. Hopefully this one won't change.

    Reply stu2 - We want to pay what is due; we are waiting for an invoice to pay. I have attached correspondence between Cyberheart and I for reference:

    On the 15th January 2007, we received an email from Cyberheart to say we owe them S$396 as we did not terminate our hosting with them. This is our reply" We have terminated our hosting and domain registration on 21st
    > December 2006
    > for xxxx.com and on the 1st of January for xxxx.com. YOU
    > terminated
    > web hosting for xxxx.com, xxxx.com and xxxx.com (Not even
    > your
    > server and you have the audacity to say you are hosting) on the
    > 07/01/2007,
    > all three websites were pointing to a travel site then. You even
    > sent me 2
    > emails asking me to reconsider terminating our hosting with you as
    > all the
    > issues we had can be resolved with a transfer to a new server -
    > maybe this
    > will jog your selective memory."


    On 17/01/07, Cyberheart sent this email" Our of goodwill we had updated the dns.
    We will cancel the hosting.
    Since you are no longer our reseller, the renewal fee for the domain name is $30. Total $60.00.

    Please complete payment within 7 days.
    This is the final reminder, due to non-payment, we will take possession of the domain names."

    Please complete payment within 7 days.
    This is the final reminder, due to non-payment, we will take possession of the domain names."

    Our reply " We are the registrant and administrator of the domains, we bought hosting services from Cyberheart, Cyberheart should take our instructions to change DNS and provide EPP code when we request, how can you do it out of goodwill? Goodwill is when you are performing services for free and this is not free.

    We will pay the S$60.00 out of goodwill (yes, we can use this because you refused to transfer until expiry forcing us to renew with you) but we need an invoice first. We are a company and require an invoice to pay. If you choose not to provide an invoice thus causing non-payment and than choose to take possession of the domain names you can expect we will be taking legal action against you."

    Today, 18/01/2007, Cyberheart sent an email"We are waiting for you payment before the issue of invoice.
    You have 6 days left."



    Our reply" What part don't you understand - I need the invoice to pay. What is so difficult to send me an invoice like what you use to do in an email? You are clearly making things difficult.

    I cannot pay without an invoice, I am not in charge of the Singapore ops anymore, I am not in Singapore and I cannot ask accounts to pay without an invoice.

    I need an invoice to pay. You send me an invoice and get this over with.


    Send invoice by email to me."

    We are still waiting for Cyberheart's invoice.



  16. #16
    Join Date
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    Are these your domains or do they belong to the company you work for? Personally, I'd get the renewals paid asap with a credit card, yours or your companies. I'd take them at their word on the 7 days for non-payment. You can talk about all those other issues after renewal. Renewal should be the major priority and you shouldn't let any other issues prevent you from renewing the domains in the next 7 days.
    Signature Under Construction.

  17. #17
    The domains belong to a group of companies I work for. I will not give my personal credit card to a company like Cyberheart and I do not have a corporate card to provide for payment. The domians have been renewed by Cyberheart until 2008. I have also paid and renewed them for afew more years with new registrar. I am waiting for Cyberheart's invoice to pay them so that I can get the Auth. code for the transfer. I have spoken with accounts and they refuse to make any payments without an invoice, I don't mind making a local bank transfer but I am now working in another. Guess if this matter blows up bigger i will have to hand it over to the legal dept, don't really want to do this as the hassle is even bigger and I want to remain non-existant in the org. But nothing much I can do to prevent this as I will be on the road for the next 3 weeks and if a push comes to a shove than I have to surface this for others to manage.

    I am still waiting for the invoice.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitciv
    The domains belong to a group of companies I work for. I will not give my personal credit card to a company like Cyberheart and I do not have a corporate card to provide for payment. The domians have been renewed by Cyberheart until 2008. I have also paid and renewed them for afew more years with new registrar. I am waiting for Cyberheart's invoice to pay them so that I can get the Auth. code for the transfer. I have spoken with accounts and they refuse to make any payments without an invoice, I don't mind making a local bank transfer but I am now working in another. Guess if this matter blows up bigger i will have to hand it over to the legal dept, don't really want to do this as the hassle is even bigger and I want to remain non-existant in the org. But nothing much I can do to prevent this as I will be on the road for the next 3 weeks and if a push comes to a shove than I have to surface this for others to manage.

    I am still waiting for the invoice.
    Hi
    There's a few things I don't understand. I won't mention anything about a
    Forest Fire out of a few Dollar renewel fee, How many Domains were there?

    Also if the domains were in YOUR name NOBODY but you can renew them.
    IF Cyberheart paid the renewel fee they still CAN'T legaly change
    the Registrant name or info and if you tried to renew them before they expired,
    OR if they renewed them before the Expiration date they're still YOURS!

    However alot of times the Whois on a Domain will show the new year
    renewel by default....

    Another thing I can't quite understand..
    Let's get back to the fact ONLY the Registering Domain Registra
    can pay the $6.00 for a renewel without the actual transfer
    going through..

    HOW can the Registra you were going to transfer the Domains too pay
    for a renewel without legaly having the Domain?
    FACT They Didn't pay yet and still have your money..

    And lastly before I leave, It's hard for me to imagine going through
    all that Bul*Sh*t over the money for a few Domains?
    If ya didn't want to give a CC# why not use Epass or Paypal for instance.

    Unless I fell off a turnip truck I think there's a few things you've
    left out of this so far..

    1 More Thing..
    Being afraid to give your CC over the net is foolish.
    More CC# are stolen by hackers to the Credit Card Co's sites than
    personal accounts.
    WHY spend the time trying to get Peter Pullet's CC info when the same amt of
    time they can access files with 1000's of them??
    You have a much higher risk of the clerk at the Gas Station copying it than
    someone on the net..
    ..
    Last edited by ChiTown; 01-19-2007 at 03:10 AM.

  19. #19
    Hi,
    A few bucks needs to have an invoice before accounts will pay. Two domains.

    Good news if you are right.

    Cannot undertsand where you got this" Let's get back to the fact ONLY the Registering Domain Registra can pay the $6.00 for a renewel without the actual transfer going through.. "

    Yes.
    FACT They Didn't pay yet and still have your money..


    I use the CC for internet payments, I just don't trust Cyberheart. Please don't misquote me.

    Using the word "foolish" is condescending. Bear in mind that most people like myself are in forum to learn not to be told "foolish" even if they are ignorant.


  20. #20
    Hi, mitciv. It looks as if you're backing yourself into corner over $60. I guess if you don't like the idea of using Paypal, E-pass or E-gold as alternatives to CC payment, you don't really need these domains, or there might be some details you don't want to reveal here...

  21. #21
    Hi lorem ipsum, You are not reading right - The Vendor Cyberheart IT Online does not have PAYPAL, E-Pass or E-Gold. Maybe you would pass your credit card to unscrupulous vendors but I will not. There are no details to this case that I will not reveal. I welcome Malcolm Ooi of Cyberheart IT Online to this forum. I am looking for help/advice and to let people here know the issues I have and hopefully they will benefit from my ignorance.

    You may be jaded as you meet many people that lie around here but donít insinuate that I am in this group.

    I need these domains but I will not succumb to blackmail without a fight.

    Many thanks to Techno, ChiTown (initial comments anyway) and most of all Dave for your help.

    I will be travelling but will reply to productive messages when I can. I will update this thread when I have further updates or a resolution.



  22. #22
    OK, mitciv, if you prefer fighting...
    I haven't really noticed that Cyberheart payments detail, I hope you'll have the issue finally resolved soon. Good luck!

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    364
    As far as I know, it's against ICANN rules to take hostage of a domain for debt. It may be worth contacitng ICANN.

    Mini

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitciv
    Hi,
    A few bucks needs to have an invoice before accounts will pay. Two domains.

    Good news if you are right.

    Cannot undertsand where you got this" Let's get back to the fact ONLY the Registering Domain Registra can pay the $6.00 for a renewel without the actual transfer going through.. "

    Yes.
    FACT They Didn't pay yet and still have your money..


    I use the CC for internet payments, I just don't trust Cyberheart. Please don't misquote me.



    Using the word "foolish" is condescending. Bear in mind that most people like myself are in forum to learn not to be told "foolish" even if they are ignorant.

    Well let me say I'm sorry if you took offence to my Foolish remark.
    No intent was meant as to your mental stability..

    As far as the CC use goes you're right, I did surmise you didn't use
    it on the net at all and wasn't trying to misquote you.

    I could take your reply of "not to be told "foolish" even if they are ignorant"
    to mean that you're NOT foolish but ARE ignorent but I don't really think you are.

    I guess the whole earth shaking mess over the cost of 2 Domains just
    never made any sense to me being a Logical Gemini..

    Being that I've been in the Adult Biz over 12 years now and Buying $ selling Domains for the last 4.
    I Have Domains in 24 different registras at present because when I buy 1 from someone I need an account there for them to push it to me.

    Having servers at 3 different Hosting cos and hosting others myself I have a
    fair Idea of what I post as far as trying to help someone..

    Oppps almost forgot, I'm also a registered member at ICANNwatch.org
    which is part of ICANN and I stay up on ICANN rules fairly well..
    That and the fact I have over 3,600 domains I have to stay up on everyones
    rules of sink with the ship..

    And I do enjoy helping others with probs even tho I speak my mind and
    at times it might sound rash as in this thread..
    BUT things didn't really fit and pieces were missing as far as putting
    everything together.
    There was alot of Mis-Information like you paid for 3 years renewl at
    2 different registras which I knew couldn't be..

    Don't take it Personal, remember everything I told you was TRUE down
    to your new Registra still having your bucks to renew..

    Asking questions is a great thing if you don't know something and the
    only stupid question is one not asked.
    So if I can help you with anything in the future I'll remember you're
    not foolish but HhhhMmmm I won't go there

    12 years ago someone had to show me how to turn this damn tower
    on so we all have to learn somewhere..
    As Sgt Friday would say tho, next time you need help just post the Facts and nothing but the facts..

    But make sure ALL of them are there so one doesn't have to spend time
    on this and that and can spend it on the real Prob..
    By the way have you ever read the TOS at Cyberheart???
    One more thing, unless you're swapping spit with the WildWest affil I'd seriously consider leaving those Domains at GoDaddy till next year and rethink it then..

    As I mentioned I don't mind helping Newbies persay but most Old-Timers
    quit helping Newbies al long time ago because they never listened anyway.
    They always knew more and did what they were going to anyway!

    PS, Blowing text up or using Bold just to empasize a point isn't in the rules of etiquette
    for the board. It's more on the line of hollering which is basicaly a No-No..

    You take care and have a Great Weekend..
    Last edited by ChiTown; 01-19-2007 at 01:55 PM.

  25. #25
    I've just dropped you a PM.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
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    5,866
    On 17/01/07, Cyberheart sent this email" Our of goodwill we had updated the dns.
    We will cancel the hosting.
    Since you are no longer our reseller, the renewal fee for the domain name is $30. Total $60.00.

    Please complete payment within 7 days.
    This is the final reminder, due to non-payment, we will take possession of the domain names."
    Well by Cyberheart not providing you with an invoice it seems that it's their intention to take these domains from you because you refuse to pay without an invoice. Over $60!. As I said to you before. You should straighten out your priorities. If you don't pay for your domains renewals in the next few days, they will no longer belong to you. There would appear to be a lot of "bad blood" bubbling just underneath the surface in this story. $60 is going to be a heck of a lot cheaper and simpler than getting your lawyers involved.

    Tell someone in your Singapore office to take $60 out of petty cash and to go round to Cyberheart's office and give them the $60 and to not leave without a receipt.
    Last edited by stub; 01-19-2007 at 11:37 PM.
    Signature Under Construction.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    67
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Zan
    Just an FYI: there's an ICANN rule where domain names transferred to the gaining
    registrar within 45 days from their renewal dates won't be given an extra year. A
    thing you might want to keep in mind if you still insist on moving them out.
    That's a little confusing.

    The rule is that if you renew a domain after it has expired AND then transfer it to another registrar within 45 days of renewal, you won't get an extra year.

    If you renew it before expiry, even one minute before expiry, you will get the extra year on the transfer, even if you transfer immediately.

  28. #28
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    Location
    Clinton Country
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamik
    That's a little confusing.

    The rule is that if you renew a domain after it has expired AND then transfer it to another registrar within 45 days of renewal, you won't get an extra year.

    If you renew it before expiry, even one minute before expiry, you will get the extra year on the transfer, even if you transfer immediately.
    Just for clarification sake if you have a Domain that expires on Jan 20, 2007
    and you don't renew it till Jan 25th the renewell is only good till the
    actual date of experation + a year or Jan 20, 2008.

    If you transfer it to another registra on say May 1st 2007 and it's expiration date
    is now Jan 20, 2008 it'll change to Jan 20, 2009 or the next calender
    year from it's current expiration date but the original month and day of you first
    registering it is retained...

    Also if it's renewed at the Registry you've had it then it can be transfered
    the next day to another Registra and there's NO 60 day waiting period as
    the waiting period is only for someone to dispute your owning it..
    Last edited by ChiTown; 01-20-2007 at 05:34 PM.

  29. #29
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    Forgot=Added info.
    One thing you CAN'T do is request or transfer any domain on or after
    the Original Expiration date!
    The request as I mentioned has to be recieved by the Registra it's at
    pre the expiration date!

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