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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    31

    Do I really need a dedicated server?

    As you guys can tell I'm new here, this is my first post. And, before I get attacked with the whole "search the forum noob!", I can assure you I've been searching for the past few days.

    My situation is quite specific and I definitely need some advice from some of the more experienced/knowledegable individuals on here.

    I run a message board via IPB and I have about 3,000 members. On any given day, I have about 450-550 members on. In addition, I am averaging about about 100-200 members on simultaneously. We have deployed a shoutbox that we almost use as a chatroom, so I'm seeing tons of concurrent MYSQL queries.

    Previously, I was with Netsender and they were able to handle us for the most part. I had a decent Reseller package with them and we had some downtime, however, nothing too serious. ($50/month for 30 gb of webspace and about 200 gb transfer) All of sudden, they disappeared off of the face of the earth. Their netsender.net website seems defaced along with their netsender.co.uk site. Luckily, I had a MYSQL database backup of all my members + posts.

    In the process of switching to a new host, I rushed into signing up with hosteasier.com and purchased a VPS with them (It is also the $50 plan and I am getting 25 gb of webspace + 700 gb transfer)

    Within 2 hours of being online with hosteasier, I received this email:

    Your VPS using too much resources

    Hello,
    I just checked the server and found your VE tries to use up to 2gb of
    RAM on node. After limit was set for VE, it started to lock off and do
    not respond to any command with next error:
    Unable to fork: Cannot allocate memory
    In this situation I suggest you to look at dedicated server, vps
    cannot handle such load, its still share resources dynamycally between
    other VEs. There is only 6 VEs on that node still your VE goes out of
    memory.

    --

    HostEasier, Inc - Hosting Made Easy!

    To place an order, or for more info, contact;


    Copyright 2004-2005 ©
    HostEasier Inc.
    All Rights Reserved.
    I don't see how my "VE" can be attempting to use 2gb of RAM, when the netsender server I was previously on had only 512mb. They were able to handle my website with a few issues.

    With hosteasier, I am receiving all sorts of IPSdriver errors and I had to turn my board offline. They suggested one of their dedicated servers which start at 99/month. I don't see how I can go from paying 50/month to 100/month. It just doesn't seem to add up.

    Can I please get some guidance/advice/feedback? If you guys need any more information I will glady do my best to provide it.

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,169
    Ouch, I don't think 2gb sounds right but 512 is way too low. Thats real heavy usage, you defiantly need a dedicated server especially with the shoutbox.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    31
    Not all my members are entitled to use the shoutbox. Only a select few. So, you agree with the dedicated server deal? I think it's a bit pricy and definitely more than I need.

  4. #4
    All VPS providers are not equal, many share/over-sell the memory such that you don't really get the full amount listed (check the fine print, it may be called 'burstable ram' not guaranteed ram). Some applications, when left starving for more ram - will actualy 'try' endlessly to consume more resources, thus compounding the problem. Your old provider may of let you consume much more than you thought your limit was perhaps.

    In simple english - you may not have as much as before (even if it seems it should of had more) - and your software didn't react well to the new limits - and yes could possibly of tried to consume more resources in a loop.

    Bottom line - no one can answer your question here without a lot more details such as process list output, memory usage output, not to mention are you sure everything is identical on the new vps (same EXACT operating system/software or possibly something slightly different has caused a loop/problem in resource consumption).
    Colohouse | P: 877-539-4638 | E: hello@colohouse.com
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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Jersey
    Posts
    2,971
    SEARCH THE FORUM NOOB!!!

    Just kidding

    Ok, here are a few cheap but reliable dedicated service providers for the same price.

    http://corenetworks.net/dedicated/ (setup is a bit much, but it is worth it)

    well...this is the only one I can think of at the moment.

    But search the dedicated and colo sales in the advertisements section, they have really nice deals.

    One of the things that will raise the price of the server ridiculously is when you add control panel/management. If you are not good at server administration, then you either have to pay a monthly fee (around $30 average) to get plesk, cpanel or direct admin, or get one of those management services who say they will only manage if you have cpanel, I'm not gonna name but they charge $29.00 (so $59 total, cpanel+management, on average), LOL. Or buy from a management company which charge $60 with or without control panel. So even if a server comes out to $49, just by adding the control panel will take it up to $80 and then there might be setup or you might wanna add a 100mbps port because of your high load.

    So dont be suprised if you shell out $100 a month on average give or take. There is no choice if your site is going at such a rapid rate.
    Last edited by HNLV; 01-06-2007 at 01:58 AM.
    Email: info ///at/// honelive.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    31
    Here are some emails hosteasier has sent me:

    IPS errors, Bandwidth/resources issues

    It looks like your board is killing your VPS due to using too much memory. There is an error somewhere in script, or someone is trying to upload a really big file to your board, or abusing it other way. Everything else is just fine on the node and your VPS.

    Egor M.
    Support Dep.

    IPS errors, Bandwidth/resources issues

    Any which cause high memory usage. I've been monitoring your VPS for some time, at certain moment after Apache start it consume all available memory and OS kernel start to kill processes randomly to free some RAM so it can execute its tasks.

    Egor M.
    Support Dep.

    I can't seem to figure out the issue for the life of me. This WAS NOT occurring with my last host...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by turnkeycolocation
    All VPS providers are not equal, many share/over-sell the memory such that you don't really get the full amount listed (check the fine print, it may be called 'burstable ram' not guaranteed ram). Some applications, when left starving for more ram - will actualy 'try' endlessly to consume more resources, thus compounding the problem. Your old provider may of let you consume much more than you thought your limit was perhaps.

    In simple english - you may not have as much as before (even if it seems it should of had more) - and your software didn't react well to the new limits - and yes could possibly of tried to consume more resources in a loop.

    Bottom line - no one can answer your question here without a lot more details such as process list output, memory usage output, not to mention are you sure everything is identical on the new vps (same EXACT operating system/software or possibly something slightly different has caused a loop/problem in resource consumption).
    That seems logical. I think my last host let me get away with a bit more than this one has and/or will.

    Also, are there any hardware/software issues that can cause problem with this new host? Such as, not having the latest version of PHP, etc.

  8. #8
    You most probably need a dedicated server for this!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    31
    Why would you say that si?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by crise
    I can't seem to figure out the issue for the life of me. This WAS NOT occurring with my last host...
    Than why did you move? If your last host was good, why not stick with them?


    Alex

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    31
    Because, they mysteriously crashed. I have no idea what happened. Check their website out at netsender.net.

    I switched to a new host in a rush in order to get my website online. I DID do quite a bit of heavy research (about 5-6 hours). I think I should have done a bit more. Hosteasier DOES have a 30-day money back guarantee, however, that is not the issue. I need to find a host that will able to handle my website like my last one did.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Missoula,MT
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by crise
    I run a message board via IPB and I have about 3,000 members. On any given day, I have about 450-550 members on. In addition, I am averaging about about 100-200 members on simultaneously. We have deployed a shoutbox that we almost use as a chatroom, so I'm seeing tons of concurrent MYSQL queries.
    Firs thing I would do is look into your apache httpd.conf setting as wel as your MySQL my.cnf settings. Also, be sure to setup the Slow Query Log in MySQL as this would be a good way to help diagnose if you have a bug in your code or in your queries.

    I'd look into issues like Apache keep-alive and persistent connections between PHP and MySQL. It's possible that your previous host had default configurations for apache/php/mysql that were better optimized than your current host.

    Also, no offense, but if you spend $50/month on a VPS why should spending $100/month really make much of a difference? I undertsand having a budget, but if your forum is really that active, you can do a fundraising drive or use profits from advertising to supplement the needed funds.

    Like others suggested, post your config files, error logs and so on, then we can give you some more accurate advice.
    SupportLayer - Enterprise Linux Server Management

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    31
    Here is my Apache status:

    Server Version: Apache/1.3.37 (Unix) PHP/5.1.6 mod_gzip/1.3.26.1a mod_auth_passthrough/1.8 mod_log_bytes/1.2 mod_bwlimited/1.4 PHP/4.4.4 FrontPage/5.0.2.2634a mod_ssl/2.8.28 OpenSSL/0.9.7a
    Server Built: Oct 18 2006 03:38:42

  14. #14
    do you have installed arcade or other misc stuff in your forum? If I be you, I'll take a dedicated server since you can expand a lot of your forum and a peace of mind of to not capable support your forum. Nowday, dedicated you can get for an affordable price. Just take a look at offer forum.

  15. #15
    Just take a dedicated server! That should solve your problem!

  16. #16
    i think you will need it
    but it depends on your budget
    with dedi the price will be much higher

  17. #17
    I would and a did as my forum was getting larger by the day i just got sick of the downtime. you can allways host other pages. or vps the rest out

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by TIFF
    I would and a did as my forum was getting larger by the day i just got sick of the downtime. you can allways host other pages. or vps the rest out
    Which type of dedicated server did you go with and why?

  19. #19
    I went with a P4 with 2gigs of ram. The reason was on a sheared server my site would really bog the sql and ram. so it would keep crashing.

  20. #20
    I also have video files i host. so i would run out of bandwidth. Now i never have to worry about that.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    73
    Hi,

    I suggest you to ask them if your VE is taking 2GB RAM or 2GB Virtual Memory (RAM + Swap). That makes a huge difference. Also, I would suggest you running a private IRC server for chatroom and host a webchat, it will require far less memory than having mysql connections. I have a VPS company and I have never seen a VPS try to use 2GB RAM yet, and I have some really heavy users (more than 700GB monthly).

    But if your server is taking too much RAM, I would suggest you going with a dedicated server, it is more secure for you, you will have less problems with it and it is yours to use.

    Regards,
    Eugenio Pacheco
    CBras.com - pacheco@cbras.com
    http://www.cbras.com - Hosting, Reseller, IRC Shells, VPS, Dedicated Servers

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by eugeniopacheco
    Hi,

    I suggest you to ask them if your VE is taking 2GB RAM or 2GB Virtual Memory (RAM + Swap). That makes a huge difference. Also, I would suggest you running a private IRC server for chatroom and host a webchat, it will require far less memory than having mysql connections. I have a VPS company and I have never seen a VPS try to use 2GB RAM yet, and I have some really heavy users (more than 700GB monthly).

    But if your server is taking too much RAM, I would suggest you going with a dedicated server, it is more secure for you, you will have less problems with it and it is yours to use.

    Regards,

    Would I be able to integrate that IRC chat onto my invision board on each and every page? (such as my current shoutbox)?

    I also found it quite ridiculous that my forum was utilizing that much memory. Although some of the errors have been fixed, I am still experiencing a lot of lagging during peak usage times. I am almost certain it has to do with php/sql/apache settings and/or software on the hosts part.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    73
    Hi,

    I'm not sure you would be able to integrate your IRC Chat Room on each page... The IRC room was just a suggestion to lessen the mysql connections and such things...

    As to configuration, it might be, I've had some problems with apache2 on a debian VPS, it was allocating way too much memory, but I'm not sure that is your problem.

    Regards,
    Eugenio Pacheco
    CBras.com - pacheco@cbras.com
    http://www.cbras.com - Hosting, Reseller, IRC Shells, VPS, Dedicated Servers

  24. #24
    I honestly feel your pain. My website is NO WHERE NEAR as big, a vbulletin website with about 575 members and our record was 59 members online at once. HostGator suspended my account without any notice and my site was down for hours while I negotiated with them through email (they don't do tech support over the phone) and they told me that I needed to upgrade to semi-dedicated or dedicated because my site used too many resources.

    I was paying $15 a month for their Swamp account, and was forced to upgrade to the Semi-Dedicated ($70 per month). That was a huge leap for me, especially considering it was more money than I could afford (college student, work only 20 hours a week, etc..). Within a week, HostGator suspended my account AGAIN without any notice and told me that it was using too many resources. So I negotiated with them again to fix a file to limit the CPU use, but their semi-dedicated server was SLOW. It would time out all the time, if I downloaded a file from PhpMyAdmin the entire site would stall for 5-10 minutes until the download was done. Way slower than the Shared account, yet I was paying so much more.

    I bit the bullet a couple weeks ago and registered a dedicated server with Dediwebhosting.com, the server was $70 and then $25 for Cpanel/WHM. I paid for it at 7pm and they replied notifying me that they might not be able to work on it until the next day since it was after the normal business hours, I told them no problem at all and honestly wasn't even expecting the server to be up and operational for 24-48 hours according to what their site says. By the time I got up at 6am the next morning, my server was online and ready to start transfering files -- they finished it through the night and it was available and ready for me to use less than 11 hours after paying for it! I was completely amazed.

    So yeah, $15 a month jumping to $95 a month in the matter of a few weeks, I definitely can relate to your issues. Dediwebhosting has some pretty good prices, and I feel like I got a great deal. Definitely would recommend them, and never again will I recommend HostGator for MySQL-driven websites.


    Edit: Oh yeah, and after switching to the dedicated server, my server load is drastically smaller. On the Semi-Dedicated Host Gator account, server load was consistantly 3.4-7.0 according to my vBulletin script. With the dedicated server (2.8ghz HT, 1gig ram) with all of the website's config identical to the semi-dedicated as far as files being ran and how many queries being used each time, the script has never reported higher than a 2.0 server load.
    Last edited by mifbody; 01-12-2007 at 01:03 PM.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by mifbody
    I honestly feel your pain. My website is NO WHERE NEAR as big, a vbulletin website with about 575 members and our record was 59 members online at once. HostGator suspended my account without any notice and my site was down for hours while I negotiated with them through email (they don't do tech support over the phone) and they told me that I needed to upgrade to semi-dedicated or dedicated because my site used too many resources.

    I was paying $15 a month for their Swamp account, and was forced to upgrade to the Semi-Dedicated ($70 per month). That was a huge leap for me, especially considering it was more money than I could afford (college student, work only 20 hours a week, etc..). Within a week, HostGator suspended my account AGAIN without any notice and told me that it was using too many resources. So I negotiated with them again to fix a file to limit the CPU use, but their semi-dedicated server was SLOW. It would time out all the time, if I downloaded a file from PhpMyAdmin the entire site would stall for 5-10 minutes until the download was done. Way slower than the Shared account, yet I was paying so much more.

    I bit the bullet a couple weeks ago and registered a dedicated server with Dediwebhosting.com, the server was $70 and then $25 for Cpanel/WHM. I paid for it at 7pm and they replied notifying me that they might not be able to work on it until the next day since it was after the normal business hours, I told them no problem at all and honestly wasn't even expecting the server to be up and operational for 24-48 hours according to what their site says. By the time I got up at 6am the next morning, my server was online and ready to start transfering files -- they finished it through the night and it was available and ready for me to use less than 11 hours after paying for it! I was completely amazed.

    So yeah, $15 a month jumping to $95 a month in the matter of a few weeks, I definitely can relate to your issues. Dediwebhosting has some pretty good prices, and I feel like I got a great deal. Definitely would recommend them, and never again will I recommend HostGator for MySQL-driven websites.


    Edit: Oh yeah, and after switching to the dedicated server, my server load is drastically smaller. On the Semi-Dedicated Host Gator account, server load was consistantly 3.4-7.0 according to my vBulletin script. With the dedicated server (2.8ghz HT, 1gig ram) with all of the website's config identical to the semi-dedicated as far as files being ran and how many queries being used each time, the script has never reported higher than a 2.0 server load.
    Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check them out.



    EDIT:
    Server not found


    Firefox can't find the server at www.dediwebhosting.com.

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