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  1. #76
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
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    332
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCrowley

    However, we have in our 11 years of hosting never stopped any individual client from using all the space and/or transfers they paid for when they signed up. So, this type of "overselling" which is really more aptly named "efficient use of resources" based on statistical averages and experience is what I call "mature and responsible overselling". Many of the plans these days are so oversold that a single typical website using today's typical technologies can not use all of the resources they purchased, although the host's marketing speak indicates otherwise.

    That is what I have a problem with, but I'm in the minority around here, so it often falls on deaf ears.

    - John C.
    (the "amateur" host)
    You’re right as usual John- If you’re serious about pulling the plug in the face of all the
    “overselling” little amateurs on WHT I’ll give ya a job – the day I see a link in your signature I’ll know it’s time : )- seriously, anyone that has been in the business for more than 5 or 6 years knows what overselling is and is not- the humorous, uninformed and continual conjecture here is funny yet telling…. We know that sold resources in a shared environment are rarely fully utilized- percentages vary depending upon brand service offering and clients- OverSELLING is simply marketing this utilization instead of using the allocations to MANAGE the aggregate service layer performance- small hosts that have no other marketing vehicles and budget started the trend, and lacked the understanding of basic business to know it is unsustainable- but of late it’s been fun to force even more downward pricing pressures in the provisioning side to force upstream providers of all the little hosts to share the pain : ) BTW I agree with your historic precedents- how long do you think small and mid-sized upstream providers of resold accounts and maxed out desktop 'dedcated servers" can continue along this curve? I betting about another 8-10 months- I’ve actually modified and reallocated some marketing budget Q2-3 to instead of brand, promote and attract customers, force pricing pressure on resold reseller hosts- forcing them out of the game and using strong brand recognition to increase market share of dislocated customers Q1 08- cheaper and more fun than doing lame acquisitions of dying hosts. You're right the only little hosts that are scared are the ones that have a modicum of industry sense and visibility, the rest are dead and don’t even know it yet.

    So build a business case for increasing your prices and service levels- the market will dip as signups fall off over the next 6-10 months- then be ready reap the rewards –
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  2. #77
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    1,446
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucial Web Host
    Mr. Crowley,
    It's always good until it isn't. You sound like you run a very professional shop and I understand your points because we too have hundres of clients who believe their websites are critical, hosting on our shared servers who also are saving a lot of money. This is always good until it isn't.

    I look at it this way, if I've got something that is generating $x,xxx/mo - the small charge of a dedicated server would be a much more secure way to go.
    But, if that client wants full management, RAID solutions, managed backups, offsite disaster recovery backups that can be restored from "bare metal", fast, multi CPU MB's, etc... then the price of that "dedicated server" is now $500+ a month for quality. If they can get all of that for say $100/month on a shared server, then it makes sense. That's what I'm saying.

    Doesn't really matter how thin you want to slice it. A single client on a dedicated server is more secure than 100 clients on a well managed server. And I can give you 99 reasons why if you would like.
    But I never mentioned security. I'm not talking about storing secret recipes or the combination to the vault, but hosting accounts for SMB's where uptime, service, and overall reliability are needed for websites that are modest in their resource usage. Taking advantage of strength in numbers in terms of shared hosting works well for them.

    The problems start when shared providers start "overloading" their servers with too many clients, offer too much for too little forcing every ounce of resources to be used per server, etc... Responsible shared hosting backed by good planning and oversight can match and often exceed what a dedicated server can provide in terms of dollars spent per what is received. I won't argue that the "grass is red" when it comes to overall security and being the only website on a server.

    There's a billion threads around here that explain why no host is hacker proof - I could pull up any one of them and use the pages of arguments by what seems like everyone who agrees - hosts get hacked.
    Hacking is a different ballgame, and clouds the issue at hand. It's just as easy to have a dedicated server hacked as a shared, although the risks do go up a little when multiple accounts exist due to more opportunities for vulnerabilities. Again, proper hardening, IDS, BFD, firewalls, mod_security, GRsec, SELinux, etc... can help reduce the risk.

    - John C.
    (wants to watch the end of the football game now)
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  3. #78
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    1,446
    Quote Originally Posted by cowabunga
    You’re right as usual John- If you’re serious about pulling the plug in the face of all the
    “overselling” little amateurs on WHT I’ll give ya a job – the day I see a link in your signature I’ll know it’s time : ) ...
    If I was serious I would have closed up shop years ago. The market's shift toward pennies for hosting has actually helped our business grow as we can make more of a case for why we charge what we do, as the chasm between "them" and "us" makes us look more reasonable and sound.

    - John C.
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  4. #79
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    Posts
    771
    Mr Crowley,

    You and I sir, are in complete agreement.

    Thank you. And enjoy that game!
    rick@slicie.com - Vertical Scaling Servers
    30 Minute Backups - Only pay for what you use
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  5. #80
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    862
    Quote Originally Posted by layer0
    I disagree, show us one example of someone who you think is "scared"?
    Cartika, for example, is scared about DreamHost, IMO.
    And you and even John have some fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by layer0
    On another note - Offering plans like DreamHost (or plans like ResellerPanel lets their resellers offer) has nothing to do with being big or small. It's insane overselling no matter how you slice it and simply does not work well for critical sites.
    Well, I wouldn't put ciritical thing on low budget hosts.
    I wouldn't put ciritical thing on shared hosts.
    I would even hesitate a lot to put credit card info on a shared hosting server, and probably won't do that.
    (And I wouldn't put ciritical thing on non-redundant servers.)

    So, bringing "critical" site for the sake of discrediting overselling seems funny argument to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by layerd0
    Some hosts, e.g. Pair.com, CartikaHosting.com, RazorBlue.com, can offer shared hosting environments geared towards critical sites. Dreamhost, Netfirms, PowWeb, etc. do not. Hosts have different target markets and some work extremely well for even the most critical sites. Some even offer expansion options all the way to a fully managed cluster (a simple migration from even a $10 shared account).
    Unless it's well monitored and controlled, shared hosting server can be slowed down or even crashed by a single user.
    If a serious client decides to put a "critical" app on a shared server, maybe it wans't that critical after all, the person in charge of the project wans't very knowledgable, or the host have misinformed the client, and so on.
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  6. #81
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
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    771
    Perhaps another reason is that the client wasn't properly educated during the sales process and was led to believe that somehow this shared environment was good for their critical app.
    rick@slicie.com - Vertical Scaling Servers
    30 Minute Backups - Only pay for what you use
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  7. #82
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    24,027
    What a great thread, cowabunga, JohnCrowley and Andrew with some great posts. One day I'll actually figure out half of what cowabunga posts.
    WLVPN.com NetProtect owned White Label VPN provider
    Increase your hosting profits by adding VPN to your product line up
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  8. #83
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Canada
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    862
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCrowley
    If I was serious I would have closed up shop years ago. The market's shift toward pennies for hosting has actually helped our business grow as we can make more of a case for why we charge what we do, as the chasm between "them" and "us" makes us look more reasonable and sound.

    - John C.
    Well, then, it proves that there is a room for all sorts of hosts, in some way.

    In other words, your theory of 'OMG "oversellers" destroying hosting industry' becomes shaky.

    I would say it's the smaller oversellers accusing larger oversellers to create the chasm of "them" and "us" so that "it makes us look more reasonable and sound."

    Basically, it's a scare tactics and fear propaganda in its essence.
    Not much different from "hate the islam" or "hate the jews" type of fanatic mass manipulation campaign, IMO.

    Reducing the complex matter to a single not-well-defined term of "overselling" IS a marketing ploy.
    And it's not something that contributes for "education".
    Last edited by extras; 01-07-2007 at 10:28 PM.
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  9. #84
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    10,710
    Cartika, for example, is scared about DreamHost, IMO.
    And you and even John have some fear.
    Wow, you really think you know it all, don't you? I have NO fear regarding DreamHost whatsoever and the only person that truly knows whether or not I do is me. This isn't the first time you attempt (and fail) to presume something. Just stop, it *IRRITATES* many members on this forum. But I guess you feel irate yourself, so much that you decided to make a nice little section on your site all about it. But that's another topic.

    Well, I wouldn't put ciritical thing on low budget hosts.
    I wouldn't put ciritical thing on shared hosts.
    I would even hesitate a lot to put credit card info on a shared hosting server, and probably won't do that.
    (And I wouldn't put ciritical thing on non-redundant servers.)

    So, bringing "critical" site for the sake of discrediting overselling seems funny argument to me.
    An extremely oversold server has more users.

    More users = more chance of them causing the server to crash and just overall high load on the server and more pressure on the hardware. Make sense so far?

    Please define to me what a redundant solution is, by the way. I remember previously that you don't have a very accurate perception of this.

    CartikaHosting, a provider that I mentioned in specific, is a proven provider of premium hosting solutions that are suitable for hosting critical sites. This is my opinion, but it is also backed by their excellent reliability. Credit card details are stored in the payment processor, not the site -- so you misunderstood.

    What I AM referring to is a CRM, project manager, ticket system, or any such application that a business' daily operations depend upon. This is critical.

    Unless it's well monitored and controlled, shared hosting server can be slowed down or even crashed by a single user.
    If a serious client decides to put a "critical" app on a shared server, maybe it wans't that critical after all, the person in charge of the project wans't very knowledgable, or the host have misinformed the client, and so on.
    This happens extremely rarely if ever at all in an environment geared towards this such as that of Cartika's.

    Quoting Andrew;

    I can tell you with certainty that GM Canada, A Division of Sprint and Habitat for Humanity have outsourced their CRM applications and are hosting them in a shared environment - wonder why that is?
    I guess GM, Sprint, and Habitat for Humanity are all idiots then, according to extras, eh?
    Last edited by layer0; 01-07-2007 at 10:42 PM.
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  10. #85
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    3,119
    I love creating controversy!
    Daniel B., CEO - Bezoka.com and Ungigs.com
    Hosting Solutions Optimized for: WordPress • Joomla • OpenCart • Moodle
    Data Centers in: Chicago (US), London (UK), Sydney (AU), Sofia (BG), Pori (FI)
    Email Daniel directly: ceo [at] bezoka.com
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  11. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    1,446
    Quote Originally Posted by extras
    ...Basically, it's a scare tactics and fear propaganda in its essence.
    Not much different from "hate the islam" or "hate the jews" type of fanatic mass manipulation campaign, IMO.
    You really like to bring it all down to human tendencies and religion.

    We're not scaring our clients into hosting with us. When reasonable business minded folks see so much being offered for so little, they wonder why, and what's the catch? They choose us not because we cajoled or badgered them into it, but because they made an "educated" decision as to what type of host suits their needs best. I cannot speak for others.

    I'm not saying the Paris Hilton fan club sites should not use a budget minded highly oversold host, as obviously there is a market for it. But what I do disagree with is offering that which cannot be provisioned for a typical website that the marketing department is tailoring their campaign towards. To bring it back around to the airline analogy that everyone seems to like, it's like an airline saying "we'll let you and 1000 of your closest friends fly on this super jumbo jet to wherever you'd like for $99". It isn't a realistic offer, as the weight limit might be exceeded for the plane due to FAA regulations, or whatever other TOS violation precludes such use. But the airline figures they'll win, as who really has 1,000 friends?

    - John C.
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  12. #87
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    Posts
    771
    There's a line that a host crosses when they say TB and $5.xx in the same sentence. But, that's quite a bit different than those of us who fit your defination of overselling - however incorrectly defined you have it.

    We can simply offer a better value to our clients by cost averaging our resources to our client base. Maybe this really isnt overselling at all and some people are just using the term to broadly. I think the market will ultimately be the judge. You can already see the masses leaving these bigger jokester oversellers - We got a few from site5 and DW in just the past couple weeks. The gig is just about up for these guys and you can just read the reviews in this forum to see that.

    Manage a good business. That's what is really all about.
    rick@slicie.com - Vertical Scaling Servers
    30 Minute Backups - Only pay for what you use
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  13. #88
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    332

    *

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Bob
    What a great thread, cowabunga, JohnCrowley and Andrew with some great posts. One day I'll actually figure out half of what cowabunga posts.
    You get a whole hellava lot more than you let on bob
    Ok it's really simple there are currently three type of hosts in the shared space-
    1. Little overselling hosts that compete purely on marketing large provisioning which they hope will never be used (as they cannot control their service architecture to the point of delivery) and extreme low pricing; they hide behind restrictive TOS's, template websites, reseller accounts and no marketing power -at all; for the most part they will begin to disappear in increasingly greater numbers in the next year- these are the road kill of the industry and unfortunately in toto host many clients which will ultimately suffer… these are the “oversellers’

    2. The established hosts of various sizes and market focus which understand that there will ALWAYS be unused resources in a shared environment and rather than try to sell and market this utilization manage their network, servers/customer density and overall "customer experience" more efficiently resulting in higher retention, customer satisfaction and generally a longer term prognosis in terms of industry staying power= read they are mostly immune to price fluctuations and have effective marketing alongside significant customer referral contribution to sales- These a re not oversellers, they’re over-managers- Right John?

    3. The third flavor is most interesting personally- large and to an extent medium established sized hosts which are playing the price game, but for different reasons than #1. They seem to be lumped into the #1 discussions for some reason beyond me… They have large multi - 100k- million dollar marketing budgets, datacenters, extreme market reach and brand recognition. They deliver what they promise- mostly. They are currently forcing downward pricing pressure to force small unqualified players out of the market. These larger hosts typically sign up 70 -200+ customers a day and have so consistently regardless of price point or provisioning. Day in and day out- Acquiring hosts is no longer the way to grow- force them out of business and collect the customer fallout- these large hosts are not immune by any means to market conditions as many large hosts are on the market and have been for some time waiting for more favorable valuations; they no longer want to play or they’ve run out of time based on ill-advised acquisitions and poor management in the face of thin margins and escalating customer organic acquisition costs- Interland was a great example and there are many others.

    In the end it’s about time and how much a business has based upon their go-to market strategy, that is assuming they have one
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  14. #89
    Originally Posted by extras
    Cartika, for example, is scared about DreamHost, IMO.
    Extras, please do not speak for me. I do not even consider DreamHost in the same league as us, nor do I consider them a legitimate competitor to our services...

    Originally Posted by extras
    ...Basically, it's a scare tactics and fear propaganda in its essence.
    Not much different from "hate the islam" or "hate the jews" type of fanatic mass manipulation campaign, IMO.
    And this quote clearly indicates your comprehension level of basic concepts. we are talking business here and different business models as it pertains to the hosting industry - there is ZERO comparison between something as serious as religious and ethnic hatred - and the shear fact you are even trying to compare some of us (or our actions and beliefs as they pertain to hosting) to hate mongers is offensive, rude and ignorant...
    www.cartika.com
    www.clusterlogics.com - You simply cannot run a hosting company without this software. Backups, Disaster Recovery, Big Data, Virtualization. 20 years of building software that solves your problems
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