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  1. #26
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    No, Cartika, you've missed the point entirely. The OP states that all pages are dynamic. This creates a huge server load, which is unacceptable for a shared hosting environment. Trust me.
    Daniel B., CEO - Bezoka.com and Ungigs.com
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  2. #27
    Hey Dan, sorry, I dont follow you. What is wrong with all pages being dynamic? We host hundreds of these sites - I do not see how this is unacceptable in a shared hosting environment. We have many customers hosting such sites in our shared environment - no issue what-so-ever - can you please elaborate?
    www.cartika.com
    www.clusterlogics.com - You simply cannot run a hosting company without this software. Backups, Disaster Recovery, Big Data, Virtualization. 20 years of building software that solves your problems

  3. #28
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    Dynamic sites use scripts for the backend. 8000 pageviews per day, viewing dynamically generated content, places a load that is too heavy for the server. I know you may be trying to pickup a new client (or maybe not, maybe you're genuinely speaking), but running a site like this on a shared platform is not desirable. Sure, it may work for a time, but why run the risk of being shutdown by your host? Again, I'm just a fan of doing things the right way - the first time around.
    Daniel B., CEO - Bezoka.com and Ungigs.com
    Hosting Solutions Optimized for: WordPress • Joomla • OpenCart • Moodle
    Data Centers in: Chicago (US), London (UK), Sydney (AU), Sofia (BG), Pori (FI)
    Email Daniel directly: ceo [at] bezoka.com

  4. #29
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    Dan,
    We (You, I and CartikaHosting) all know what a dynamic site is... But I dont see why you think that a shared host is an issue.

    A server having say, 20 dynamic sites on it Vs. a server with 20 VPSs on it... I would rather NOT have the VPS as the VPS software generates load of its own. and for many customers is just something they do not need. VPSs have their place. But they are not needed for one dynamic site.

    The OPs max of 13000 hits per day is not much to ask of a high end piece of hardware. I'm not sure where you are getting this idea.. but I see no reason not to put this on a shared server.
    Rock solid hosting and dedicated servers since 1998!
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalWebDan
    No, Cartika, you've missed the point entirely. The OP states that all pages are dynamic. This creates a huge server load, which is unacceptable for a shared hosting environment. Trust me.
    ? Perhaps if you limit your shared environments to only the extremely oversold such as that of ResellerPanel?

  6. #31
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    Cartika, I'm not going to argue, but I think you know very well what I'm talking about.
    Daniel B., CEO - Bezoka.com and Ungigs.com
    Hosting Solutions Optimized for: WordPress • Joomla • OpenCart • Moodle
    Data Centers in: Chicago (US), London (UK), Sydney (AU), Sofia (BG), Pori (FI)
    Email Daniel directly: ceo [at] bezoka.com

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0
    ? Perhaps if you limit your shared environments to only the extremely oversold such as that of ResellerPanel?
    Yes, GlobalWebBrands is a reseller of ResellersPanel, if that's what you're trying to hint at. You know, you can come out and say that, as it does not worry me. We run an honest business.
    Daniel B., CEO - Bezoka.com and Ungigs.com
    Hosting Solutions Optimized for: WordPress • Joomla • OpenCart • Moodle
    Data Centers in: Chicago (US), London (UK), Sydney (AU), Sofia (BG), Pori (FI)
    Email Daniel directly: ceo [at] bezoka.com

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by extras
    Karl, should I remind you that you have asked for the testing on one of the DreamHost account of mine but didn't keep your words?

    You told me you were too busy and apologized for the delay, I think.
    (I think your server was crashing repeatedly with a single user on it, due to a bad forum script.)
    Are you still too busy recovering servers?
    Or are you a guy who doesn't respect the promise made in the public forum?

    Also, if you want to talk about confusion of yours about SAN, NAS, NFS, please make a new thread.
    Honestly, I could care less about dreamhost's services, we are busy working on several internal development projects. I would like to take the time, when I have it, to evaluate the services of a competitor, but I am more concerend with maintaining our QOS and pushing our projects forward.

    Feel free to post a link to that thread we had where you demonstrated your confusion over the differences between SAN, NFS and NAS. I still feel my conclusions about english being your second language are valid.

    And for the record, we did not have to recover any servers. As soon as that script was prevented form running, the server functioned normally.

    Also, please post a link to this "promise" that was supposedly made.



    Regards,

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalWebDan
    Dynamic sites use scripts for the backend. 8000 pageviews per day, viewing dynamically generated content, places a load that is too heavy for the server. I know you may be trying to pickup a new client (or maybe not, maybe you're genuinely speaking), but running a site like this on a shared platform is not desirable. Sure, it may work for a time, but why run the risk of being shutdown by your host? Again, I'm just a fan of doing things the right way - the first time around.
    Excuse me?

    8000 pageviews per day is NOTHING.

    We have user [note: I am not trying to pick up a client, my signature is disabled, I am solely using this as an example - but feel free to presume as you like ] receiving 20-30,000 page views per day on a totally dynamic site. How much do they pay? $30/mo. The server they're sitting on right now is at our definition of "full";

    Code:
    # uptime
     21:19:06 up 4 days, 19:35,  1 user,  load average: 0.19, 0.14, 0.10
    Clearly you have limited [or no] experience hosting dynamic sites. A well-managed shared environment will outperform any VPS. Starting out with a shared environment would be "doing it the right first time", *not* a VPS.

  10. #35
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    Dan,
    I'm not sure I know what you are talking about. I have sold Dedicateds, Shared hosting and VPS of one form or another since the late '90s.
    Always there have been dynamic sites. Whether they be perl or PHP or python or JAVA or, even on the odd occasion C. But I see nothing in the OPs post that would lead me to believe that a VPS or dedicated anything was needed.

    What about dynamic sites leads you to the conclusion that they are not for shared hosting?
    Rock solid hosting and dedicated servers since 1998!
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  11. #36
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    The OP states that all pages are dynamic. This creates a huge server load, which is unacceptable for a shared hosting environment. Trust me.
    No, is not, we on a single server cpanel enviroment host many sites like that or bigger (as example, 713171 page view so far on the month, +25000 per day) and the Server Load 0.05 (4 cpus) (copy and paste from WHM). As you can see, is possible (BTW, this site is fully PHP/Mysql Based (wordpress blog and PHPBB forum))

  12. #37
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    CartikaHosting, I totally agree with you.

    I don't think the op will last very long in an oversold server environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalWebDan
    We run an honest business.
    No comment.... (40GB space and 500GB bandwidth for only $10/month... Hmmm I think I've found myself a new place to store my clients' backups, rather than paying like $60/month for a backup server)

    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalWebDan
    No, Cartika, you've missed the point entirely. The OP states that all pages are dynamic. This creates a huge server load, which is unacceptable for a shared hosting environment. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalWebDan
    8000 pageviews per day, viewing dynamically generated content, places a load that is too heavy for the server.
    You've gotta be joking. First of all, have you every heard of something called eAccelerator/APC? Second of all, even if you didn't have a bytecode caching software installed, 8000 pageviews is nothing on a non oversold server and it is not "unacceptable" in a shared hosting environment, but looking at your prices I have nothing more to say.

    Mini
    Last edited by Mini; 12-27-2006 at 10:54 PM.

  13. #38
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    The plan you are referring to is actually $15 a month. Get your facts straight before posting in public places - it only serves to make you look stupid.

    It has nothing to do with the pageviews. Rather, because dynamic content is generated, a load is placed on the server (specifically, the CPU).

    This is my last post in this thread, as you cannot convince stubborn people to accept the facts and quit trying to recruit new customers. I remember now why I left WHT a year ago - it was folks like you.
    Daniel B., CEO - Bezoka.com and Ungigs.com
    Hosting Solutions Optimized for: WordPress • Joomla • OpenCart • Moodle
    Data Centers in: Chicago (US), London (UK), Sydney (AU), Sofia (BG), Pori (FI)
    Email Daniel directly: ceo [at] bezoka.com

  14. #39
    Wow -- thanks for all the responses.

    Let me clarify what my site needs are, first of all. Jedito, I am indeed going to use Django, at least for a big chunk. And as to the load numbers, while all those pageviews will be executing some Python, at least 85% will be cache hits and won't even involve a database query.

    I was planning to go with FastCGI. ewindisch, do you know if there are particular issues with using Django and FastCGI? It seems like a lot of people use it, & I as you say mod_python is tricky to set up in a shared environment. (& if I understand it correctly, mod_python embeds a whole python interpreter inside each Apache child process, which is presumably pretty RAM hungry and would run into limits on the usual 256MB VPS.)

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalWebDan
    This is my last post in this thread, as you cannot convince stubborn people to accept the facts and quit trying to recruit new customers. I remember now why I left WHT a year ago - it was folks like you.
    The problem is, you aren't presenting "facts" in the first place. Many hosts run undersold, application hosting geared environment. Also, I do not believe that Mini was "missing" your point as to whether the pages were dynamic, as he even added that one can install eAccelerator or APC to dramatically increase performance [and also reduce load]. There's many other tweaks that one can do, and quite a few value added services one can introduce - the end result being a potential shared environment that can give a dedicated server a run for it's money. But clearly you are unaware of such, and therefore do not wish to believe it. That is fine, but please present facts, that come from experience -- and I don't think reselling an extremely oversold environment counts as "experience".

    Furthermore, nobody here is trying to recruit customers, and I don't think anybody here appreciates your accusation either. Bottom line is that *you* need to get your facts straight.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalWebDan
    The plan you are referring to is actually $15 a month. Get your facts straight before posting in public places
    Okay, $10 or $15 -- It doesn't matter, I think you're getting my point. If not then, if I signup to that plan, will I be able to use the FULL 40GB, or will I be kicked off for some ridiculus excuse?

    it only serves to make you look stupid.
    How am I the one that looks stupid, if you're the one that says 8000 pageviews is unacceptable on a shared hosting environment, and then you proceed in saying that it's "nothing to do with the pageviews". Simply ironic IMO.

    It has nothing to do with the pageviews. Rather, because dynamic content is generated, a load is placed on the server (specifically, the CPU).
    So what if CPU load is generated? A oversold server, compared an non oversold server has MORE accounts on it, which means there are LESS resources available for each client to use, which means that if a client exceeds X% of resources on an oversold server, then they will be suspended. On an non oversold server there are less accounts (compared to an oversold server), meaning more resources are available for each account, meaning each client can use MORE resources, than on an oversold environment, and not get suspended or terminated for using alot of resources.

    as you cannot convince stubborn people to accept the facts
    Hmm, stubborn people? You're the one that wont accept the fact that 8000 pageviews of dynamic content is totally acceptable in a non oversold shared hosting environment.

    and quit trying to recruit new customers.
    Trying to recruit clients? Please give me a break. We are simply telling the truth, because somebody is providing misleading facts...

    Mini

  17. #42
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    Dan,
    8000 page views... Do you really think that 8000 views put a noticeable load on a newer server? It has been years since that amount of traffic would effect a decent server.
    Unless you know something about the OPs site that was not mentioned by the OP then you are simply wrong. For any normal dynamicaly generated site, say a site based on Slashcode (which is notoriously heavy and cpu intensive), I would be happy to have 20 or 25 such sites on a single opteron server and the server load would be low (Under 1.0).

    How much of a server do you think a site like this would consume...? Are you saying this based on a belief that this type of site would use up enough CPU to deserve its own server? I just dont see how you can be in the hosting business and believe that.
    Rock solid hosting and dedicated servers since 1998!
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  18. #43
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    ykrupnik the biggest problem that you may face is that Django to run with mod_python does require Apache 2, and there are not many companies running it, if I'm not run medialayer.com (sorry if I'm doing a mistake on the domain (the user representing that company is layer0 on this forum)) does run Apache 2 (Please correct me if I'm wrong), however, I don't know if they have mod_python installed..
    I saw no problems running it with FastCGI on Apache 1.3.x at least none that our customers has reported, but my knowledge with the Django is very limited.

  19. #44
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    Sorry People, can we stay on topic? Please do not turn this thread in another "overselling VS non-overselling"

  20. #45
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    Ok, so I took a few minutes away and cooled down a bit. Sorry if I came across like an ***.

    I prefer to be safe rather than sorry. If this was my site, I would go straight to a VPS over shared hosting. I'm just like that.

    If I've offended anyone, I really am sorry. Just trying to present another side of the picture here. Hope you guys can see that.
    Daniel B., CEO - Bezoka.com and Ungigs.com
    Hosting Solutions Optimized for: WordPress • Joomla • OpenCart • Moodle
    Data Centers in: Chicago (US), London (UK), Sydney (AU), Sofia (BG), Pori (FI)
    Email Daniel directly: ceo [at] bezoka.com

  21. #46
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    ykrupnik,
    Mod python works pretty much like mod_php It does start an interpreter. Several hosts target the python market. I cant remember one off the top of my head, but there are a few that post on this board.
    I have not looked into running python in fastcgi mode. but if it is possible then most any host that is running mod_fastcgi for wither php or perl can easily add python to just your virtualhost without sucking the memory up for all of the apache children. (fastCGI runs the interpreter as a secondary outside binary)

    I had a few python users and I honestly ducked out of it by starting another apache instance for those users with python but no php... This worked pretty well, so you may be able to talk to a smaller host that offers plans with really high quality support and have them do something like that. Its pretty easy but several control panels out there don't really like doing things that way. Any Hsphere host should be able to easily set it up.. cPanel to, but the host would need to manual build the domain configs as (unless this has recently changed) cPanel still builds everything into one long config file... and a second apache would need a differant config.
    Last edited by vantage255; 12-27-2006 at 11:35 PM.
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  22. #47
    To those who were asking how I went about searching: my starting point was the Django-friendly web hosts list on djangoproject.com, and I also did a bunch of Web searches on [host] review, [host] forum etc. to see what people were saying about particular companies. The complicated thing, as I'm sure you all know, is just how many web hosting companies, not even including resellers, there are out there.

    It sure looks like many if not most of these companies will be gone in a few years' time -- at the prices I'm seeing, you must have to attract thousands of users just to pay salaries. So because I need to know the host will be around in the long run, I looked for companies with several years in business, running at least a few dozen web servers. I also looked to see that people seemed happy with them on forums, & looked for uptime statistics or maintenance logs. This is how I found pair several years ago, and I've been a happy customer, by which I mean I could just forget about them entirely and know that everything was fine.

    Personally, I'd suggest trying DreamHost as it's cheap, you have not much to loose.
    This is exactly what I don't want to do. Let me give you some background: I'm building sites for a client. Rather than deal with the billing and maintenance hassles of reselling, I like to point them toward a host and have them pay the host directly. If the host I point them to delivers bad performance, downtime, etc., not only do I look bad, but the time it takes me to switch to a new host, bring over all the e-mail accounts, etc. costs way more than paying an extra $30/month or whatever for better service from the beginning. This is the same reason track record and size are important: I don't want an angry client calling me in a few years when their web host goes out of business.

    As to DreamHost, they certainly fulfill the track record and size requirements. But it's clear from Googling around that though they have tons of satisfied customers, there's also many who are clearly on servers with bad stability problems. And while there's a good chance they, or someone like them, would work out for me, I'd rather not have to roll the dice.

  23. #48
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    ykrupnik, very well typed, and my hat is off to you for how you approach finding a host. It's too bad Pair cannot meet your needs for this site, as they are solid as you know. Keep looking using your requirements, and you will find the right host for the client.

    It's amazing how many hosts miss this segment of the market entirely with how they approach sales and pricing their plans. They price themselves too low to be out of contention for the more serious business oriented clients. But that's good for those of us who "get it".

    - John C.
    (high priced and loving it! ... Oh yeah, so do the clients.)

  24. #49
    As to VPS, the general idea of another user's code not being able to affect my environment sounds good.

    But I know enough from my own dev server to know that a production server is not an easy thing to get right, and needs a lot of regular upkeep. In the cases I've seen, "Managed VPS" usually seems to mean "we'll help you out when you ask for support, and we'll also take care of applying kernel patches." I want someone who'll monitor all vulnerability lists & patch all the system software, keep spam filtering effective -- basically allow me to not touch the server for two years & still have the site up and running.

    My guess is that this kind of management is only cost-effective when you've got 100 servers running the exact same image. And presumably once you give everyone root, you can no longer have that.

    But maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places -- any suggestions?

  25. #50
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    ykrupnik ,
    You may have better luck asking members on djangoproject.com about their experience with hosts. I am not familiar with django and there may not be a large group of hosts here that know it well. If you have found several choices based on information from theprojects site, that may be a good place to start. See if any of those hosts have been reviewed here. Webhostingtalk has a large number of well writen, honest reviews to search through. They are very handy for narrowing things down.
    Rock solid hosting and dedicated servers since 1998!
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