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  1. #1

    what is the effects of overselling ?

    We all the time hear abour OVERSELLING.

    How this can affect me as a webmaster or as a visitor ?
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  2. #2
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    None. If the overselling is done well and the host knows how to control the server.

    "Extreme" overselling can be a problem, because it might cause the slowness or downtime.

    You don't have to worry a lot about Overselling because it's a scare tactics of some hosts, IMO.

    Honesty and technical ability of the host is a lot MORE important.
    Those who emphasize about "overselling" often lack both.
    (That's why they have to employ scare tactics instead of better ways to promote their packages, most probably. )

    I'd rather verify if they use RAID storage, which Data Center they are using,
    if they are a reseller or not, what kind of server setup they have (vulnerable single server setup, non-redundant clustered setup, redundant setup, etc), and so on.

    In short, there are many other factors to be concerned than "overselling".
    Unless the host knows how to monitor and control the servers very well, oversold or not, the server can go down with ONE abuser.
    And the abuser can be a normal user who simply got sudden popularity.
    Last edited by extras; 12-25-2006 at 10:06 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Overselling is where the host is selling more bandwidth or storage than the actual server itself can handle. In most cases it wont affect you at all, unless the host is overselling the hardware specs of the server.

    Overselling the hardware aspects is relatively hard to do however. Because they will cause slow loading of sites, poor download speeds, etc. and almost no one paying for service will stand for that. So hosts rarely oversell what the processor and and ram can handle.

    Many hosts do oversell bandwidth and storage space. It is becoming more and more common in this day. Overselling isn't necessarily a bad thing. It allows hosts to offer web hosting at cheaper prices. It is rare for a customer to use all of the bandwidth or space that a set plan carries, therefore the host will add numerous accounts to the server offering much more space and bandwidth than the actual server can handle at the time.

    In most cases if a server is getting low on space or bandwidth the host will simply add more bandwidth to their plan with the DC and add another hard drive into the raid, giving the server more space and bandwidth.

    So if a host is in a dynamic atmosphere, a host may be overselling the current space and bandwidth of the server, but can always upgrade. So in most cases overselling is never felt by the viewer or owner of the hosting account.

    hope that helps

    Lane
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  4. #4
    extras & deadend ... thank you very much , advantageous data.
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  5. #5
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    Let's say they you have a 160G hard drive. And you give everyone 5G of space - thinking there is no way that people will ever use this amount of space, but it looks good on our web page (people think they are getting something).

    So you should only be putting 32 people on that site, but let's say you put 100 and all of those people decide to take you up on it. But unfortunately there is no way that can fit on the hard drive.

    It really depends on how much people want to take advantage of you
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  6. #6
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by rashe18
    extras & deadend ... thank you very much , advantageous data.
    Glad to be of service

    Lane
    Merry Christmas
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  7. #7
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    Slowness/downtime and support problems if the host has to support more clients than it can handle.
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  8. #8
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    I've always thought you should only see what you actually have. I have no problem with overselling provided the host doesn't use there TOS to get out of providing a service people have paid for. If you sell a package that says 10GB of disk space, you should provide it if the customer wants it.
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  9. #9
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    Overselling as a trend is certainly an interesting phenomenon to watch. Most hosts participate in it these days. The problem is that some hosts have the cost basis that helps enable it, and other hosts have a cost basis that goes about as well with overselling as oil and water go together. The next two years are going to be the most interesting two the Web hosting industry has seen. Copious overselling is leading to huge problems, and consolidation is near!

    As an enduser, this may affect you, or it may not. It all depends on whether your host is a swimmer or a sinker.
    Daniel B., CEO - Bezoka.com and Ungigs.com
    Hosting Solutions Optimized for: WordPress • Joomla • OpenCart • Moodle
    Data Centers in: Chicago (US), London (UK), Sydney (AU), Sofia (BG), Pori (FI)
    Email Daniel directly: ceo [at] bezoka.com
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  10. #10
    How this can affect me as a webmaster or as a visitor ?
    The more oversold an environment is, the higher the probability for problems. This isnt to say that every oversold environment will have problems, but, this is a game of probabilities (which is exactly why you see oversold hosts have good servers and bad servers). The greater the probability for problems, the greater the liklihood the website will slow down or go offline.

    Unless the host knows how to monitor and control the servers very well
    obviously a host needs to be capable of monitoring their servers and respond to incidents/alerts quickly and proficiently - however, whether an environment is oversold or not is a completely separate issue.

    oversold or not, the server can go down with ONE abuser.
    And the abuser can be a normal user who simply got sudden popularity.
    No - you have got this reversed. an undersold environment will have much less of a probability of going down from 1 "abusive" user - and often times, an oversold environment will define an "abusive" user as someone who simply got popular - much more so then an undersold environment would - as an undersold environment will, almost 100% of the time, have more cpu/customer available.

    None. If the overselling is done well and the host knows how to control the server.
    even under ideal situations, overselling affects service. The degree to which it affects service is pretty much directly proportional to the amount oversold that server is. There are LOTS and LOTS of factors to consider here - a mildly oversold host, with superior management and monitoring and a suitable customer base for that model - may have zero ill affects and may be able to maintain it seamlessly without an negative impact what-so-ever. However, the higher that oversold ratio becomes, the less and less likely this becomes...

    You don't have to worry a lot about Overselling because it's a scare tactics of some hosts, IMO.
    Its not a scare tactic - its simply probabilities - it also represents different markets...

    Brent @ Hostgator wrote a pretty interesting article for pingzine. You can read it here:

    www.pingzine.com > current issue http://pingzine.com/pdf/issue_18.pdf > page 42
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  11. #11
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    Cartika, when you quote other people, can you at least stop mixing multiple sources?
    Don't you see that it can be confusing for some readers?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cartika
    No - you have got this reversed. an undersold environment will have much less of a probability of going down from 1 "abusive" user - and often times, an oversold environment will define an "abusive" user as someone who simply got popular - much more so then an undersold environment would - as an undersold environment will, almost 100% of the time, have more cpu/customer available.
    It depends more on the server monitoring and control, IMO.
    Undersold or oversold, without good monitoring, it can experience problems.

    So, focusing too much on "overselling" is unhealthy.

    even under ideal situations, overselling affects service.
    What?
    Under ideal situation, all user of the even "extremely" oversold host is NOT using any resources.
    So, it can't affect service.


    The degree to which it affects service is pretty much directly proportional to the amount oversold that server is.
    It has more to do with customer profiles and some other factors.


    There are LOTS and LOTS of factors to consider here - a mildly oversold host, with superior management and monitoring and a suitable customer base for that model - may have zero ill affects and may be able to maintain it seamlessly without an negative impact what-so-ever. However, the higher that oversold ratio becomes, the less and less likely this becomes...
    You said by yourself. There are many factors that it's stupid to simply equate "overselling ratio" to expected service level.

    Its not a scare tactic - its simply probabilities - it also represents different markets...
    I know some hosts wants us (users) see that way.
    But we know too well that many hosts have been repeating "overselling" without much reasoning, like parrots.
    And it's evident (at least for me) that their only purpose in doing so is to scare users away from competitive hosts.

    I know, you are trying to present some form of reasoning/logic.
    I don't really see it as a valid logic, but at least you are trying very hard, which is an admirable effort.
    But you should be able to see many many other hosts (and some brainwashed readers) are not like that.
    They tend to robotically repeat "overselling" as if it's the absolute miracle measuring stick for evaluating a host.
    (And some of them are overselling by themselves...)

    Anyway. let's wait for a mouse to close another thread about way oversold subject of overselling.
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  12. #12
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    Overselling has practically become a standard in the hosting Industry today. You just have to watch how many resources people are using up and get a new server when they fill up your current server, you can always upgrading your existing server if necessary.

    Just remember that if you oversell to the point of where things get maxed out 100% then people will start calling you a scammer so watch yourself.
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  13. #13
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    Got into a nice thread (argument) about this the other day. Here we go again....

    A server that is "planned" on being oversold doesn't effect customers but once it gets even a little bit oversold it does effecting them. Even if the only way it is effecting them is to remove the availability to use the space that they paid for.
    If you sell someone 5GB of disk space, but the server only has 1GB available to them due to overselling... Then you have impacted the product they are receiving, even if they never use more than 100MB, what if they needed to for some reason?

    Overselling is a working and profitable business plan. But it does effect the performance and usability of the accounts that are sold.
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  14. #14
    extras

    I was going to go through each of your points - but, its not worth it - as - honestly, they dont make much sense...

    I know some hosts wants us (users) see that way.
    But we know too well that many hosts have been repeating "overselling" without much reasoning, like parrots.
    And it's evident (at least for me) that their only purpose in doing so is to scare users away from competitive hosts.
    This is what you are missing. The market has swung too far towards an overselling model because consumers simply do not understand anything beyound space and bandwidth.

    It is not about scaring users away from more competitive hosts and its not about acting like a well trained parrot as you like to say. What you call more competitive, I call borderline fraud and at the very least unethical marketing practises.

    You are getting nothing more from a host selling 50 GB transfer accounts from one selling 2000 GB transfer accounts in most cases - and in some cases, you actually get less with the larger package.

    The biggest problem I have with your posts is your over simplification - those that can oversell alot and those that dont simply cannot and therefore cannot compete. It does not work like this - and as I have previously explained to you - you are just confusing the consumers and helping create more "I hate my host threads"

    There was another thread recently about dreamhost where users posted loads, etc.. this sort of thing is factual evidence to the difference in business models and the respective advantages of each model to different market segments. You described a load under 10 as fine for dreamhost and to only be worried if it goes above that. I would describe a load of anything close to 10 as an emergency/crisis and anything over 1-2 to be concerned with and monitor - and yes, we use roughly the same hardware and configuration as they do.

    I do agree with you however that underselling/overselling arent really the relavent factors to be discussing - what should be discussed in allocation:capacity ratios, scalability levels of hardware, available CPU per user, available memory per user, etc - however, this sort of thing just further confuses consumers as they really do not understand what is being discussed (similar to hosts charging for CPU or utilizing TOS to suspend accounts based on CPU before resource limits have been hit). The reason we discuss overselling/underselling is because the consumer understands these comments - and frankly - throwing out blanket statements along the lines of "overselling is fine if the host knows how to manage a server" or "anyone not selling 1 TB packages cannot compete" are both inappropriate (not too mention inaccurate).

    The goal here is to educate the consumer so that they make the right decision for their requirements - and not keep coming back here posting about how they have been scammed, or how their host lied to them, etc....and 1TB plans for $10 is not the correct decision for alot of customers.
    Last edited by cartika-andrew; 12-27-2006 at 01:41 AM.
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  15. #15
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    As Andrew/Cartika rightly said, the more you oversell, the more the potential for abuse. Alot of the issues with overselling come from the type of customer base hosts offering huge diskspace/bw quantities attract.
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  16. #16
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    It really depends whether an overselling host will affect your site or not.

    If you run a dynamic resource intensive site then it's likely that you'll get kicked off on an overselling host, whereby on a non overselling host you wont get kicked off.

    If you run static HTML site, then an overselling host will be beneficial to you.

    I personally think overselling is thievery, because it's offering something that a host cannot supply. If there's nothing wrong with overselling, then why don't hosts cleary state that they oversell on their website/banners?

    Mini
    Last edited by Mini; 12-27-2006 at 03:29 AM.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Mini
    It really depends whether an overselling host will affect your site or not.

    If you run a dynamic resource intensive site then it's likely that you'll get kicked off on an overselling host, whereby on a non overselling host you wont get kicked off.

    If you run static HTML site, then an overselling host will be beneficial to you.

    Mini
    very well said and exactly correct
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  18. #18
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    You would think, after all these overselling threads, we could just come to the conclusion that overselling happens, and its effect depends on how its managed by the host.
    Daniel B., CEO - Bezoka.com and Ungigs.com
    Hosting Solutions Optimized for: WordPress • Joomla • OpenCart • Moodle
    Data Centers in: Chicago (US), London (UK), Sydney (AU), Sofia (BG), Pori (FI)
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    extras

    I was going to go through each of your points - but, its not worth it - as - honestly, they dont make much sense...
    That IS an over simplification, without any logic/resoning to back it.
    It's not far from name calling.
    And it's not the first time you do it.

    Often, a person who doesn't have clear understanding or who can't discuss politely resort to this kind of silly generic remarks.


    This is what you are missing. The market has swung too far towards an overselling model because consumers simply do not understand anything beyound space and bandwidth.
    Again, this is an over simplified statement, IMO.
    Also, it's clear that you imagine all consumers to be dumb.


    It is not about scaring users away from more competitive hosts and its not about acting like a well trained parrot as you like to say.
    Again, you don't show "why" you can say that.
    Think and provide valid reason to support what you say, please, if you can.


    What you call more competitive, I call borderline fraud and at the very least unethical marketing practises.
    Wow, that's a very broad accusation for lots of hosts.
    Are you aware of what you are saying?

    Are you seriously calling ALL overselling hosts as unethical?

    I think almost all hosts ARE in fact overselling one or more aspects of resources.
    Most probably, Cartikahosting is also overselling one or more or resources, too.

    You are getting nothing more from a host selling 50 GB transfer accounts from one selling 2000 GB transfer accounts in most cases - and in some cases, you actually get less with the larger package.
    Please prove it, if you can.
    I use a few GB per day of bandwidth (60 to 90GB per month). How can you claim that I can get MORE from a host that allows only 50GB of transfer per month?

    Only thing I may get MORE is the huge bandwidth overage charge.


    The biggest problem I have with your posts is your over simplification - those that can oversell alot and those that dont simply cannot and therefore cannot compete.
    Well, I feel that you have been oversimplifying the entire matter to simple (and not cleary defined) terminology of "overselling".

    Also, please stop pretending to know what I said.
    If you can't, please at least quote actual words of mine.


    It does not work like this - and as I have previously explained to you - you are just confusing the consumers and helping create more "I hate my host threads"
    You were not successful in explaining many thing.
    I often found that your are a rather confused person, and you can't even cleary explain the reasoning behind simple statement of yours.

    There was another thread recently about dreamhost where users posted loads, etc.. this sort of thing is factual evidence to the difference in business models and the respective advantages of each model to different market segments. You described a load under 10 as fine for dreamhost and to only be worried if it goes above that. I would describe a load of anything close to 10 as an emergency/crisis and anything over 1-2 to be concerned with and monitor - and yes, we use roughly the same hardware and configuration as they do.
    It's clear that you just pretending to know.
    I have been recommending fellow users to check these load average values for years.
    And I have been observing the load average of several hosts.

    At some hosts, it's true that load average of 10 might be a very bad situation.
    But for some others, it's pretty normal.

    My previous primary host was PowWeb.
    Their servers may show the load average of 20 and script would start to feel slow.
    At 30, it's really slow.
    But many of my tools kept working up to the load average of even 300 (very very slowly, though).

    At 10 or less, everything was very rapid.
    And this is a fact many of fellow users can acknowledge, as many of tools I have written and used by them show the load average.

    It's not so different at DreamHost.
    One of my domain, hostwick.com is hosted by DreamHost, and the load average of that server goes over 10, often.
    Contrary to your imaginary and bogus theory, I don't see any crissis level slowness, at all.


    If you don't understand, make a new thrad about the load average and ask fellow hosts.
    Some of them may kindly teach you.

    I do agree with you however that underselling/overselling arent really the relavent factors to be discussing - what should be discussed in allocation:capacity ratios, scalability levels of hardware, available CPU per user, available memory per user, etc - however, this sort of thing just further confuses consumers as they really do not understand what is being discussed (similar to hosts charging for CPU or utilizing TOS to suspend accounts based on CPU before resource limits have been hit). The reason we discuss overselling/underselling is because the consumer understands these comments - and frankly - throwing out blanket statements along the lines of "overselling is fine if the host knows how to manage a server" or "anyone not selling 1 TB packages cannot compete" are both inappropriate (not too mention inaccurate).
    Wow, this is another statement that shows your attitude toward customers.

    Anyway, thank you for admitting that you are in fact using "overselling" to control uneducated/unaware consumers.

    Fortunately, the intention of hosts like you have been identified, already.
    And well informed consumers will be avoiding those who try to mass manipulate customers by repeating "overselling" mantra or any other silly scare tactics.
    Thank god (or whatever), our government has been training us to decipher all these little scare tactics.

    The goal here is to educate the consumer so that they make the right decision for their requirements - and not keep coming back here posting about how they have been scammed, or how their host lied to them, etc....and 1TB plans for $10 is not the correct decision for alot of customers.
    I know, you want to brainwash uneducated consumers to think buying a packag from competitor isn't right.

    You just did a very good job of explaining yourself to all who can read well.
    Thank you, again.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalWebDan
    You would think, after all these overselling threads, we could just come to the conclusion that overselling happens, and its effect depends on how its managed by the host.
    Well, to begin with, not all of us are using the term in the same way.

    Some people are using it for "extreme overselling", but without clear notion of what constitutes the "extreme" overselling.
    Most of them practice "mild to moderate" overselling, most probably.
    I would call it "extreme" when the host sells A LOT more than the usage predicted by statistics (or any other means of valid prediction), for example.

    For some, the term "overselling" applies only to the bandwidth and disk space, somehow.
    I don't think they can cleary explain why its applicable to only these two kinds of resources.

    For many others, if any one of resources is sold with the limit that may cause the shortage of the resource when everyone fully uses it, it's overselling.
    So, if TOS says the CPU % limit of 10%, the host is overselling.
    Or TOS or the contract says "2% of server resources" and they have more than 50 account per server, it's overselling.

    And maybe there are some people with other definition of overselling, most probably.


    If we really want to discuss about something, it must be cleary defined in the way matching to the general perception of public (if applicalbe) and agreed by all folks participating in the talk.
    Last edited by extras; 12-27-2006 at 10:39 AM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by extras
    One of my domain, hostwick.com is hosted by DreamHost, and the load average of that server goes over 10, often.
    Contrary to your imaginary and bogus theory, I don't see any crissis level slowness, at all.
    I just checked, again, and this is what I got.
    07:36:12 up 10 days, 18:27, 1 user, load average: 11.80, 7.03, 5.88

    It's over 10 !
    But the server is reacting very rapidly.
    No noticeable difference compared to when it was showing under 3.

    Cartika, is it enough for you to know that you were talking about things you didn't know well?
    Do you want more?
    I can PM you the URL where you can see it by yourself.
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  22. #22
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    sort of agree with extras

    by generalization of saying overselling=bad is the same as saying food=poison.
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  23. #23
    It's not far from name calling.
    And it's not the first time you do it.
    extra's - stop playing the victim here. The funny thing is, you think you are intelligent enough to do this in a manner that no one picks up on. It is just not my style to play the sorts of games you are playing.

    you really need to stop playing this passive aggressive crap - then turning around and play the victim when you get a response (it really isnt an admirable trait)

    Often, a person who doesn't have clear understanding or who can't discuss politely resort to this kind of silly generic remarks.
    I cannot discuss this politely with you, because you do not know what you are talking about and you insist on attacking anyone (again, in a passive aggressive manner) who tries to indicate this - and eventually it escalates -
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    extra's - stop playing the victim here. The funny thing is, you think you are intelligent enough to do this in a manner that no one picks up on. It is just not my style to play the sorts of games you are playing.

    you really need to stop playing this passive aggressive crap - then turning around and play the victim when you get a response (it really isnt an admirable trait)
    Again, you are talking as if your skewed imagination were the absolute truth ....

    I simply pointed the fact that you were not respecting the WHT rule.
    Did I say I sufferd from what you said? Not at all.
    So, there is no victim, unless YOU want to play the victim game.

    I cannot discuss this politely with you, because you do not know what you are talking about and you insist on attacking anyone (again, in a passive aggressive manner) who tries to indicate this - and eventually it escalates -
    Whatever the reason, as you've admitted, you have been posting without the due respect for the WHT rule.

    Also, it's pretty evident that you have talked about the "load averages" as if you knew very well, but it wasn't true.
    You have entirely avoided the subject in your reply, as well.
    That's not very honest nor responsible manner, either.

    Maybe you are having too many glasses of champagne, lately.
    But you should compose yourself a bit more if you want to show up and post in a public forum even if that was the case.


    Well, what you have been doing might be very entertaining for some,
    and I don't deny that you are a pretty funny fellow.
    But I think you would be more useful for us (users) if you spent more energy on offering redundant clustered hosting, for example.
    Last edited by extras; 12-27-2006 at 04:11 PM.
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  25. #25
    Have to agree with Cartika here about the "acting the victim" thing. Ruining an interesting discussion.

    (I'm a long time viewer, first time poster, thought it worthwhile registering to try to keep this discussion on track. Only a web host user, but am looking into reselling at the moment...)



    (Oh, and am an Australian who is about to switch from 1and1's free 3 year offer to budgetreseller.com, so don't accuse me of being a customer defending Cartika, please.)
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