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  1. #1

    Clients can really be tough to please....

    Why is it that hundreds of clients are absolutely great, quiet, respectful and yet you always have a couple clients that are bad apples?

    I have this one guy who has been a client for years - over two years. He is usually quite a quiet customer except whenever he needs support of any sort (billing or technical). He is abusive and abrasive in all communication. Other then this, he has been an ideal client - low resource consumption (and I mean LOW) and his credit card always goes through without a problem.

    I say was, because he just left us... over a very silly misunderstanding. But first some background....

    A little over a week ago, this client emails us asking if "is it possible for your company to take payment from my bank account or my debit card rather then my credit card every month?!". To which our billing responded the following morning (email arrived after billing hours) with the standard "We can accept cards such as Visa check cards, but we can not take payment directly from your bank account via EFT or such. You can securely submit new card details here <url> if you wish to change the card on file."

    4 days later we get an email to support, titled "u never responded" with a body like so:

    -----
    I emailed ur info and billing address... and received no response.. Also, uz never sent me a receipt for the transaction you made on my credit card last month, and as a business expense I need that, and in fact expect it as well!

    This is a ongoing lack of responsibility with ur company.. (Replying back)

    As a paying customer of <removed>, I expect respect and consideration in these reply's, this one I'm sending you now also...

    If I do not hear back from someone in your company within 3 days (not "business days"), this means by Tuesday, December 5th, 2006 at exactly 3:15 pm, with answers to my questions, and a receipt for last months payment, I am calling my bank and having your company removed from automatic billing, for I will be canceling my account with you permanently.
    -----

    Well... first of all he only emailed billing, not info - I get a copy of emails to both accounts... second, he was responded to, in a timely fashion by the billing dept.... third, all his previous emails - abrasive though they may be - have been answered in a courteous and timely manner. We have a ticketing system used to track all client contact and so I have reviewed all his past correspondence with us and it's been all promptly attended to by our staff.

    Another point is the receipt is sent out automatically every month. He's been getting it for years and nothing has changed on our end. I checked out our bounces on the receipts and his wasn't in there. It may indeed have been lost somewhere, but I am leaning towards it ending up in his spam box somehow. If it did end up in his spam box, how can we prevent that? We've thought of offering the receipt online available for download before... but that's getting a bit off track.

    When he sent the above email into support, he had a response in 3 mins - on a saturday evening. My support staff replied that the receipts are sent out automatically and that they would have billing send him another copy during office hours tomorrow and basically apologised for the lack of response to his previous emails - not knowing that he had indeed been responded to. Our billing guy does check his work email from home in the evenings and forwarded the client his receipt as well as forwarding the client our original response to his "debit card" inquiry 4 days earlier. Our billing guy also asked that the client respond to verify he had received the email. Since our billing guy was at home, he used his personal account instead of billing@ account.

    So the client replies to our support address, cc'ing the personal account of our billing guy. The body of his email:

    -----
    Lets not keep the emailing game back and forth as im pretty busy... and am sending u this one last time...

    SEND ME A RECEIPT FOR LAST MONTH. AND RESPOND TO THE BELOW EMAIL ASAP.
    -----

    Sooo... he is obviously receiving our responses... how else would he get the billing guys personal address? So since he got the billing guys email... I guess he didn't get the attachments?

    So by now I see the tickets/emails and respond. I tell the client that we can indeed accept Visa check cards and that he could also setup paypal to withdraw from his bank account to pay us but that we can not automatically debit his bank account for him every month. I also apologised for the miscommunication and mentioned that we strive to answer all client emails in a timely manner.

    It took two more emails to determine that he did indeed have a Visa check and we could charge that for him. He was given the link to submit his info and he told us he would get to it sometime the coming week. GREAT! Problem solved.

    Or not...

    This is the first week of the month. Our ***Invoices*** are sent out first week of the month. The client gets his invoice from us in the mail. He shoots off a response:

    -----
    I just received another bill and was curious to know why after more than a couple years you have decided to make payment more than 2 weeks in advance? I'm looking over two years worth of charges by your company and it's noted that yous always charged my visa between the 20 and 24rth of every month...

    I'm quite disgusted with you guys after you knew that I wanted to swap cards within the next week...

    Because of your lack of respect, and in causing me added work, I want to cancel the account with yous immediately the day your last charge expires, which is midnight December 31st., 2006... I'm seriously done playing email games with you guys!

    I will be speaking to a visa card rep this weekend.

    <name removed>

    P.s. if the site goes down before January 1st., 2007, I will seek a refund by speaking with my bank as well.

    PS.S. Creating a receipt with a date of the 30th when making a charge on the Dec 6th is total ******** as well.

    -----

    We always send an invoice out in the beginning of the month for the previous months usage and charge cards during the third week of the month. Always for 6 years or however long we have been in biz now.

    We tell the client it's only the invoice and that we haven't charged his card. However, he still wants to leave - but not till dec 31st because he has paid for it.

    Being fed up with the client, we ask that he leave now and we won't charge his card. Basically give him a free month and a week. He replies telling us he's going to call visa and request a refund. He also threatens physical harm ("lest we ever meet in person") and says he will add us to the all the lists of bad hosts and forum posts*.

    *His emails really can be quite confusing. I assume he is threatening to post mean things about my hosting on forums.


    What a headache, all over a $10 per month hosting account. I hate to lose ANY client and I especially hate it when it happens in such a way that the client leaves upset with us, but I really can not see how we could have satisfied this guy....

    Bah anyways... just had to get this off my chest. I doubt ANYONE will actually read this, but maybe someone here can actually relate... I know none of my friends can understand the difficulties that email communication presents.
    Last edited by lostmind; 12-07-2006 at 04:25 AM.

  2. #2
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    The guy is a turd. Clearly, it's a good use of his time to bitch n moan about a $10/mo hosting account for hours on end.
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  3. #3
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    I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your client. "Bad apples" will be encountered anywhere, in any business. It's a shame but that's simply how it is.

    I think you handled this in a friendly manner (as it should be), so it's his loss, I would say.

    My principle is to treat all customers equally friendly, even the bad apples. You can be firm, but you should never lower yourself to their attitude and rudeness, as it will not do anyone any good.
    It's a pity some people have to continue being rude an abusive, especially when they're being treated with respect.
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  4. #4
    I have at least one client like this. Everytime he submits a ticket which is about 5 times in 2006 about his email, his rude and abusive. I have had to remind him on a few occasions that if he continues we will simply close his tickets without a reply. BUt he has hosted on our Win2k3 box for over 3yrs. Its amazing the little things that tick people off.
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  5. #5
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    Nice experience (or not). I think its often the littlle things that add up over time. Perhaps he just had a bad day (girlfriend or wive left etc.), but perhaps (s)he has a social issue - who knows, many people have lack of communication skills.

    Taken all for granted can also become a mjor issue over time.

    I guess you will have to live with the fact that you cant please everyone (and quite honestly you dont have to ;-)
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  6. #6
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    You handled the situation professionally. There will always be bad apples in any business as other’s have mentioned. So try not to beat up yourself too much about it (even though I do the same thing), some clients are hard to please.

  7. #7
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    Unfortunatly you can't please all the people all the time. You can do everything in your power and some people will still be unhappy, and it does seem to be the people who pay the lower amounts from what I've found. Its a part of business so best thing is to just move on
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  8. #8
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    Arrow

    I currently work casual at McDonalds, and my manager is like this! He's abbusive, harrases people etc. Just tonight he cracked it again and was throwing burgers around the kitchen. We've reported him to the owner aswell and he keeps getting warnings.

    He should seriously be fired and fined. HE SCARES ME
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  9. #9
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    Personally, I would have called this customer to talk in person long before this point. Obviously there is a lack of understanding via email and a quick call might have made all the difference between a happy customer and one that plans to "post about you" negatively.

  10. #10
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    One of the biggest hurdles in business is becoming immune to these kind of people.

    You have to realise there are some that just will not be pleased, no matter what you do.

    These people will not go away. In fact, as the world becomes a more selfish and self-centred place, more and more people like this will crawl out.

    All that time you have obviously spent over a $10 a month client wasted. Regardless of what he used in physical resources, he's clearly more than $10 in pure hassle and stress.

    Be glad you are rid, move on, and prepare to come across people FAR worse than this.
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  11. #11
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    I agree with [inx]Olly - you have to understand that not everyone is a guru of the ins and outs of hosting so when something goes wrong, many times they feel it should be an easy fix, not to mention quick.

    Their frustration is based mainly on their own ignorance of the technology. You can't fault them, for that is why they depend on us. It is like car repairs. People are always frustrated when they have to get their car fixed, besides the cost factor, the next major reason is because of the inconvenience. Same with hosting as well.

    Sometimes you have to chew the crunchy to get to the soft.


  12. #12
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    I have no tolerance for abusive and unreasonable clients. They get cut loose poste haste. It seems counter-intuitive to purposely cut clients loose, but the time and aggravation a bad client can inflict is far greater than they're worth.

    Of course if you don't have many clients to begin with then every client, regardless of behavior, may be worth it to you. Thankfully I'm beyond that point.

  13. #13
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    I hear your pains, lostmind; with every jab there are many silent pats on the back too.
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  14. #14
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    Its common in every business. You might be turd to someone else and someone else might the same to you... magical just like the ham.

  15. #15
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    Believe me, everyone has encountered these types of customers before, they are basically unavoidable... You did a great job handling him, give yourself a pat on the back, there are a lot of people who would have lost their patience dealing with a customer like that.

    Pay your staff time and a half for any time they have to work one of his tickets, haha
    -steve

  16. #16
    Yah, it's possibly one of the few cases where telephone support may actually have fixed the issue. We haven't offered telephone support for a very long time, mostly because I was tired of fixing people's internet connections (I can't see my site, it's a hosting issue!), walking them thru windows updates and getting their printers setup (my email won't print, it's a hosting problem!)....

    Honestly, the $10/month doesn't hurt at all. What hurts is losing a client, of any form. We have very low turnover, with those that do leave usually thanking us for helping them out (Of course our new sales are very low too, but we manage to keep a slow but steady growth).

    In any event, it's nice to know that this kinda stuff happens to us all.

  17. #17
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    I'd have to agree with everyone here in regards to this sort of thing. You'll always have someone like this and some are far worse. One example in my mind sticks out about a situation we had in the past. At the end, it was not worth it, no matter what they were paying. The aggrevation caused this person as well as the pure disrespect they had for anyone else was appalling. Some people are just not worth it and I think you'll be a lot happier that he left.
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  18. #18
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    Wow...I guess you people let people push you around more than me. My customers get 1 warning not to be rude or abusive to my staff. After that warning, I simply cancel the account and call it a day. It's in my Terms of Service that I may do so and I definitely have done so more than once.

    I'm a reasonable person until you start pushing me or my staff around. Then, you get to find a new place to keep your website.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick H
    Wow...I guess you people let people push you around more than me. My customers get 1 warning not to be rude or abusive to my staff. After that warning, I simply cancel the account and call it a day. It's in my Terms of Service that I may do so and I definitely have done so more than once.

    I'm a reasonable person until you start pushing me or my staff around. Then, you get to find a new place to keep your website.
    Agreed. I bend over backwards for my clients, but I will not tolerate someone being abusive or rude to me/my staff....and vice versa. You don't get the right to be a jerk to me for ANY amount of money.

    That said, people have bad days and frustrations can often come out via HelpDesk tickets. If we've inadvertantly done something to cause the frustration, or if its a very understandable situation, we overlook it. We'll also apologize and work to make it better. If its obvious that the customer isn't interested in a resolution and just wants to be a jerk for the sake of being a jerk...we cut him loose, but politely.

    "I'm sorry our services are not what you expect. I'm going to issue you a refund on this month's hosting fees and give you 7 days to find a new host. I wish you all the luck in the future. Let us know if you need anything else. Thanks!"

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  20. #20
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    It's complicated.

    Regrettably, there are plenty of ways to be a jerk, and some of them have nothing to do with being rude.

    Not providing an advertised service that has already been paid for can be done politely. Telling clients they will be insulated from other clients on a VPS, when really they won't be, can be done politely. Tossing the phrase "fully managed" around in a vague way to give a misleading impression can be done politely. And so on...

    Usually hosts bill the client first, before providing the service. Thus host has the money, and the leverage.

    One way to address at least some of the outbursts could be to reverse this leverage formula, and collect funds at the end of the month, after a professional service has been rendered.

    Yea, we'll get ripped off sometimes, but think of the marketing buzz we can get by bragging about this arrangement? You want an edge? There you go.

    I like the idea of clients paying me via Paypal subscriptions, so they know I don't have their card, and they can cancel without even contacting me. This keeps me on my toes, and empowers them, and reduces their need to resort to outbursts to keep an even leverage situation.

    Apologies can be incredibly powerful defusing tools. Controversies in recent memory could have been easily pacified with the words...

    "You know what, we realize service has kinda sucked the last 2 weeks. We really are sorry, can we buy you lunch?"

    Email does make it easy for all of us to be more honest than usual, and one can get carried away, no doubt. But it can also be helpful for both sides to just get the real feelings out on the table, so they can be dealt with, before tensions get to explosion level.

    All customer support should be handled by women, period! :-) Honestly, hot shot programmer type dudes (like me) just weren't born for the world of diplomacy. Our talents lie elsewhere.

    But, people are people, and like you guys said above, sometimes it just ain't gonna work, and you have to admit defeat and move on.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by squirreldog
    One way to address at least some of the outbursts could be to reverse this leverage formula, and collect funds at the end of the month, after a professional service has been rendered.
    I can't imagine the amount of fraud and spammers we'd have if we allowed people to have a free account for a month before getting their billing.



    With regard to the original poster, I think you should have called this customer once it was clear there was a problem. 5 minutes on the phone may have avoided this miscommunication and cleared up the problem. Sure, the guy sounds like a nut, but sometimes people just don't "do email" very well and are better handled by phone.

    Billing issues are often emotional ones for customes... and I've found that talking to them on the phone is a good way to keep them from getting too worked up and avoiding misunderstandings. Plus, it usually results in a very happy customer since they feel special to have someone actually call them and take their "issue" seriously and personally.

    If you are out of the country, then get a VoIP service or use skype.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrzippy
    I can't imagine the amount of fraud and spammers we'd have if we allowed people to have a free account for a month before getting their billing.
    Ok, I'm open minded and willing to learn, let's talk.

    Can't we get their card info, and just not use it until the end of the month? Is charging someone $12 at the beginning of the service period really what stops them from fraud/spamming etc?

    And just to quibble a bit, it's not a free account. It's just a question of when we get our payment. Before we provide the service, or after.

    That's one way to look at it, I'm sure there are others. Thanks for any thoughts you can share.

  23. #23
    You should contact visa/mc to make sure taking their card info and then not using it is allowed. I'm not sure it would be...

    Besides, you would not be able to check for fraud until it comes time to actually charge/authorize, which means you're at very high risk for spam/scam/fraudsters.

    I understand it's not a free account, but any spammer will see it as free. After all, they're not paying for it nor have any intention to do so.

    Your idea isn't bad, but just needs to have some tight controls. Check out a lot of the threads here on "free web hosting", and you can get some good ideas on how to limit your risk.
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  24. #24
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    Thanks Mr. Zippy, appreciate your thoughts.

    For the moment, my plan is to bill all my clients via the Paypal subscription service. Paypal makes it easy to set up payments any way I want. I have it setup where clients pay me at the end of every 30 days of service.

    I should emphasize, this plan has yet to collide with the real world, so I am flying on logic alone here.

    Basically, I don't want to be involved in billing and money handling at all, and am hoping I can trust Paypal to understand security issues etc.

    No plan is perfect, this one included I'm sure. What am I not taking in to consideration?

  25. #25
    Using Paypal to do this kind of "free for 30 days" offer is a good idea. (I realize it isn't really "free".. I'm just looking at it like a spammer would, etc.)

    To get a paypal account and signup for a subscription with you (paypal will require you to create the subscription as "free for 30 days) means that you're relying on paypal's fraud checking and verification systems instead of doing it yoursef.

    We've never had a problem with paypal before, but these forums here are full of unhappy people who have had big problems. Personally, I think most of those problems are self-caused, but I do also think there's the occasional issue where the vendor is not at fault and paypal screwed something up.

    It'll be interesting to see if your idea of collecting payment "after the fact" will work in this industry. I'm not aware of anyone doing this currently.. Please be sure to post update reports every once in a while.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostmind
    He is abusive and abrasive in all communication. Other then this, he has been an ideal client - low resource consumption (and I mean LOW) and his credit card always goes through without a problem.
    Lowered your expectation, eh? I would not call abusise and abrasive clients an ideal client, no matter how timely they pay their account. In fact, I am more than willing to terminate a service to abusive and abrasive clients, eventhough they have been a long term customer of us. Acfually, especially if they are a long term customer of us.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrzippy
    It'll be interesting to see if your idea of collecting payment "after the fact" will work in this industry.
    Yes, it'll be especially interesting for me. :-)

    What are the main concerns and obstacles here?

    Is the main concern that a spammer will signup, send 45 billion mails, and then vanish?

    What else?

  28. #28
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    squirreldog,

    I'm not familure with Paypal's subscription service.. but it seems to me, that there would be several obsticles.

    1) Are you only planning on using Paypal? Some people refuse to use Paypal
    2) Do you plan on allowing people to pay in 6 month and yearly incriments? If so, I highly doubt you want to give someone an account for a whole year for before invoicing them.
    3) When you setup the account, and bill 30 days later.... is there some way to verify the account has sufficent funds at the beginning of the month? You are CERTAINLY going to need a way of verifying accounts at the time of setup... and not billing.
    4) Fraud seems to be pretty common in this industry. This isn't limited to new accounts with fake cc numbers. People will stop payment on checks, and dispute past charges (called charge backs). Its upto the hosting company to prove that these are legitimate charges. Having said that... it seems like it would be easy to get 2 months of hosting for the price of 1.

    Its amazing what people will do... and although it might not hurt financially all the time, its definatly a waste of time for the hosting company.

    -Chris

  29. #29
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    Thanks for your input Chris.

    Quote Originally Posted by lqdwbchris
    I'm not familure with Paypal's subscription service..
    For the client, it's just like subscribing to a content site. Paypal automatically makes payment from them to me each month. When they stop the subscription payments, Paypal sends me a notice, and I close the account. I don't have to fuss with billing, and the client retains full control of the process.

    https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/websc...-intro-outside

    Again, I haven't done this yet, but I've talked with vendors in this industry who are running 6 figures + a year through this system, and they are happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by lqdwbchris
    Some people refuse to use Paypal
    Yea, good point, I'm sure that will happen. I'm keeping an open mind, and will see whether it's a big enough of an issue to merit setting up other payment systems.

    Mostly, I have a strong desire for the most simple automatic payment system possible. I'm willing to suffer some losses to keep it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by lqdwbchris
    2) Do you plan on allowing people to pay in 6 month and yearly incriments?
    No. Clients are billed at the end of each month of service they are happy with, that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lqdwbchris
    When you setup the account, and bill 30 days later.... is there some way to verify the account has sufficent funds at the beginning of the month?
    My guess is no. And anyway, having funds at the beginning of the month doesn't mean they will have funds at end of month.

    Basically, most folks won't be paying me for some or all of the last month.

    I'll just eat it, the cost I pay for bragging rights to a unique "no risk" billing strategy. I consider it a marketing expense. Plus, I don't need to offer a guarantee or do refunds.

    Quote Originally Posted by lqdwbchris
    Fraud seems to be pretty common in this industry. Having said that... it seems like it would be easy to get 2 months of hosting for the price of 1.
    My system is a content manager, it doesn't generate html pages you can just FTP to somebody else's server. So it wouldn't really make sense in this situation for a client to use me only two months, just to get one month free. But, I'm sure somebody out there will probably try it, and think it's clever.

    It's an experiment. It may be great, or it might not really work, we'll see.

    The main thing I hope to achieve is to not think about any of this any more than absolutely necessary, and stay focused on continually improving the service clients are purchasing.

  30. #30
    I'm going to side with the people who don't tolerate this sort of thing. There is absolutely no excuse for people to be offensive in every single communication with you, and none for them to be pissy on first contact. None. I will not allow someone to be abusive toward me or any of my staff. If they are, they get sent out the door. There are other service providers out there willing to be doormats.

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