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  1. #1
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    How to determine if host is overselling the server

    Most of us here are concerned about oversold or overselling of shared hosting or VPS servers. Most people know how it deteriorates server performance and how it affects the customers as a whole. But I am not sure if we, as a customer, can determine ahead of time if the server we are planning to be hosted on is oversold or not?

    So, I have 2 questions regarding this:

    1. Is it ethical for a host decline or ignore answering your questions regarding how many sites/domains are hosted on their particular server?

    2. Is there an online tool that can check in real-time how many domains are really hosted on a particular server if say I plug in a domain name or IP address of the server? If there is one, please provide URL.

    Please advise.

    Thanks very much in advance.
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  2. #2
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    The best indicator if your or any host is overselling is the prices & packages

    for example: http://www.xstatichosting.com/

    If you see something like this red lights should be going off in your head.
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  3. #3
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    You can look up your domain at domaintools.com and it will tell you how many sites are hosted on your ip.

  4. #4
    For a host who doesn't oversell there's nothing to be afraid of the question about the number of sites on the server. I think that's a clients' right to know that, as it will not only tell you about the fact of overselling, but will also give some idea what to expect in terms of RAM and CPU. However, I'm afraid there's no way to controll your host if he's not inclined to tell you this, as using domaintools you can only find out sites at your ip, and what if someone uses dedicated ip?

  5. #5
    cpsitesaver.com, you can figure out if the hosting oversells or not just only looking at the package plans and the prices. If the hosting offers much traffic for a very low price it's quite clear that it oversells.
    You know the greater part of hosting companies don't tell the truth about overselling. It's not profitable for their business.
    As far as I know there are services that can show you how many domains are hosted on your server but I don't know their URLs. Maybe you may find them in Google.

  6. #6
    I took an experiment.... I asked one of the hosters to give me as many as their package included (bandwith, space etc). They were very surprised. And they refused me...

  7. #7
    It's arguably ethical to refuse to tell a customer how many domains or accounts share his server. However, I'd be inclined not to trust a hosting company that wouldn't give me that information. But even if they do answer, how do you decide whether or not to believe them?

    Also the number domains doesn't really tell you that much. You might be sharing the server with several hundred domains that are lucky to get five hits a day. Or you might be sharing with half a dozen domains that reallly need their own dedicated servers. A line graph or histogram of CPU usage would be much more useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segey
    For a host who doesn't oversell there's nothing to be afraid of the question about the number of sites on the server. I think that's a clients' right to know that, as it will not only tell you about the fact of overselling, but will also give some idea what to expect in terms of RAM and CPU. However, I'm afraid there's no way to controll your host if he's not inclined to tell you this, as using domaintools you can only find out sites at your ip, and what if someone uses dedicated ip?
    Yes, or you might be using a dedicated IP.

    If you have shell access, sometimes you can go to the top level and see how many domains are on the server.

  8. #8
    But hosters give shell by request

  9. #9
    Some do, some don't.

    Can you explain the experiment above, NameServer. I'm not sure how you'd ask a host to give you as much bandwidth as their package allowed. I'd be surprised too if someone called up and said, "My package has 500GB/mo of bandwidth. Would you please send me 500GB of bandwidth?" Or do you mean you asked them to give you the package for free? That's not likely to happen, but some hosts have a money-back trial period.

  10. #10
    I did it as experement

  11. #11
    I wonder if there are hosts out there who have been asked the question "How many...?" Do you feel obliged to answer it? and answer it correctly? Usually, they say that they try not to use more than 50% of the server.

  12. #12
    Clear up please with "50% of the server"

  13. #13
    It's not 100% accurate (but then what is?), but this free site can give you a rough
    estimate:

    http://whois.webhosting.info/

    Type the domain name or IP address, preferably the latter to see how many are in
    that server and what domain names are hosted in it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwrunyon
    You can look up your domain at domaintools.com and it will tell you how many sites are hosted on your ip.
    Which is completely useless information and totally inaccurate.

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  15. #15
    What I have to enter? I typed domain name of hosting company and got "1"

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Zan
    It's not 100% accurate (but then what is?), but this free site can give you a rough
    estimate:

    http://whois.webhosting.info/

    Type the domain name or IP address, preferably the latter to see how many are in
    that server and what domain names are hosted in it.
    I get so angry when I see this advice.

    Knowing how many domains are pointing to any given IP is totally worthless. It doesn't tell you what kind of server or if these are simply parked domains or dead domains, etc. Further, its going to completely miss things like subdomains, accounts with dedicated IPs, etc. There are also other factors that I won't even go into.

    Would you want to host with someone who put 5 heavily trafficked message boards (only 5 domains on this server) on a 1.2 celeron with 256 mb ram OR would you rather host with someone who has 500 domains parked on top of 1 static HTML page (500 domains on this server) on a dual xeon with 4 gb ram???

    Knowing how many domains are pointing to an IP doesn't give you enough information to make a wise decision. Any host giving you this as a "tool" to gather any real data should know better.

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by NameServer
    What I have to enter? I typed domain name of hosting company and got "1"
    Well then, obviously if they only host 1 domain on their server...you should definitely sign up with them.

    We host a very popular band's website. If you ran a search on that domain it would show 1 domain as well. However, that server is constantly maxing out on resources (they don't want to upgrade). Does that mean that would be a server you'd want your site on?

    Think about it before you use the "how many domains pointing to a server" rational for choosing a host.

    --Tina
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  18. #18
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    Thanks guys for your inputs! I like the healthy discussion. You've been helpful as always.

    Based on what I am reading, I think this tells me that "number of domains on a server" is irrelevant to the issue of whether the server is oversold or not.

    I realized this just now based on some advice here also that the server specs of the host as well as the status (dormant or active) of sites in that shared server, plays a major part in server performance (which is the main issue in oversold servers).

    And so far, there seems to be no real online tool that can accurately check this.

    So if that's the case, is there really a way for customers to know if the server is oversold or not? If none then, that's it. Or maybe I asked the wrong question.

    But if there is a way, then please share your ways to check this. This is info will be helpful not just for me but for other members here as well.

    Thanks again!
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by cpsitesaver.com
    Is it ethical for a host decline or ignore answering your questions regarding how many sites/domains are hosted on their particular server?
    I don't know about ethical but declining to answer questions about a core aspect of your business doesn't seem like good business sense. I personally agree with a previous poster who pointed out that an oversold server that hosts low intensity sites can be a much better choice than a shared server with just a few sites that are high usage.

    Also, when you ask "how many sites are hosted on this server?" the host can legitimately tell you "20" and by this time next month there could be 400. A more informative question might be one that asks the host about his/her policies regarding load balancing, bandwidth usage enforcement, and so on.
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  20. #20
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    Cool

    The above advice about type of sites vs. number of domains etc. is all true. Questions to ask are how does the host determine their overselling policy (if they have one) what type server loads do they consider normal, what are their restrictions on resource usage (if you think they are overselling... if a host is over-offering huge amounts for little money usually they will have "resource" clauses that will cut you off before you use the huge space & bandwidth advertised)
    Lots of factors you can consider but how many domains point to a particular IP isn't one of them.
    The easiest way to determine if they are overselling is if the "offer" seems too good to be true (lots of advertised disk space & transfer compared to the price) not always accurate but numbers way off the mark are a good indication.

    All you have to do is look at dedicated server advertisements. Most dedicated servers come with between 1,000 and 2,000 GB transfer per month for the entire server. So if a shared host is offering 500GB transfer for $3.95 it's easy to see they aren't likely to deliver. (and of course as mentioned above there are many other factors about servers like processors, RAM, types /speed of disks, connectivity etc. that all may or may not determine if any particular server is "overloaded" regardless of how many sites are on it)
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  21. #21
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    1. Is it ethical for a host decline or ignore answering your questions regarding how many sites/domains are hosted on their particular server?
    Sure it is ethical. By the very nature of the game, hosts have no direct influence over the number of domains that will be hosted on a server (if they allow multiple domains to be hosted off one account). So, the number of domains/sites hosted per server will vary, with the maximum and minimum being quite far apart (if the host is reasonably large). It's all a numbers game.

    At most, they could tell you how many accounts they put on a server (again, this will probably be an average), or the average number of domains they host per server.

    Regarding overselling, at times one can judge with reasonable certainty that there must be some (or a lot) of overselling going on, based on the offer of the host. Leaving aside many other costs that hosts must cover, knowing the prices of dedicated servers can serve as a very rough guideline as to where overselling might start. However, just because a host is highly or very highly priced, it doesn't mean there's no overselling being employed. Overselling can be a used as a way to "lower prices", or as a way to maximize profits.

  22. #22
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    I don't think that you should concerned about a host overselling or not, but you should about the service that this host is offering or if their servers are overloaded or not.

    Overselling is a word that everybody put too much importance in this forum, when should not be that important.
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdoubt
    The best indicator if your or any host is overselling is the prices & packages

    for example: http://www.xstatichosting.com/

    If you see something like this red lights should be going off in your head.

    lol as if the news alone on their front page wouldn't set off alarms:
    10.03.06
    Up Again
    Sorry everyone for the big down time, we've doing so much latey and couldn't put the site back up. But its back now!!!

    09.11.06
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    As you all know, xstatichosting.com has been down for a while. But its back up now!

  24. #24
    It's conclusive.

  25. #25
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    The x domains per server is unreliable enough but it also gets thrown off further when you consider that one host might have 200 domains pointing to a single server setup that handles everything (HTTP, Database, Email etc) and another host might have 200 domains pointing to a server that only serves HTTP.

    Quote Originally Posted by ldcdc
    Sure it is ethical. By the very nature of the game, hosts have no direct influence over the number of domains that will be hosted on a server (if they allow multiple domains to be hosted off one account).
    This would only ring true for hosts who use a single server setup, however not all hosts do. If domains are allocated to a server at the time they are added then it is very possible to limit the amount of domains per server. Just because you have 10 domains under one account does not mean they all have to be on the same server.

    I still agree that it is ethical for a host to not give fixed numbers though, because no decent host is going to have a fixed number per server, they will act based on the resource allocations or usage.

  26. #26
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    If you have shell access and the ability to run cron jobs, you can do what I do, which is I created a simple script that runs usr/bin/uptime every N minutes, and records it to a log file if the load is over a certain number.

    I've found it to be fairly accurate, given enough samplings, to tell if there are problems on the server.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina
    I get so angry when I see this advice.
    Which is why I don't treat it as giving advice, although I can't force others to see it
    that way. But for the OP's topic, I agree it's not the foremost, relevant, or only item
    to factor in a host's overselling or not.

    I've even seen some servers which have 6-figures yet operating stable...so far.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpsitesaver.com
    Based on what I am reading, I think this tells me that "number of domains on a server" is irrelevant to the issue of whether the server is oversold or not.

    I realized this just now based on some advice here also that the server specs of the host as well as the status (dormant or active) of sites in that shared server, plays a major part in server performance (which is the main issue in oversold servers).

    And so far, there seems to be no real online tool that can accurately check this.

    So if that's the case, is there really a way for customers to know if the server is oversold or not? If none then, that's it. Or maybe I asked the wrong question.
    One cannot determine if they are asking the wrong question, until the question is asked.
    There are no wrong questions, only unasked questions.


    Now, the above statement makes perfect sense but for some will be confusing. And so it is with how to determine if a Server is overloaded. A Server can have 2 accounts and be overloaded or have 500 accounts but can run without breaking a sweat.

    The best way to determine if a Server is overloaded is to actually use it.


    I can offer 3 different rule-of-thumb methods to help differentiate between Hosters.

    30 cents or less, per GB of Data transfer
    - you may not pay much but don't expect much

    50 cents or more, per GB of Data transfer
    - usually good or very good, Service / Support and non-overloaded Servers

    1 dollar and up, per GB of Data transfer
    - usually best of the bunch, top-notch Service / Support and almost instantaneous everything


    The above is a guideline only.
    Many people find the Hosting business a bit confusing and need something to go by, when looking for a Hoster.
    YMMV
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdoubt
    The best indicator if your or any host is overselling is the prices & packages

    for example: http://www.xstatichosting.com/

    If you see something like this red lights should be going off in your head.
    Firstly, how ethical it is to name a company for overselling without proof on a forum.
    Secondly there is what is wrong in having low prices, does not mean overusage of server resources. The server prices globally have declined and so shall be hosting. Same way with third world countries having lower work hour costs makes it exceptionally hard for the others to compete. The ones clinging on costs applicable 4 year earlier and paying higher wages to employees as they do not have access to cheaper technicians, find no other excuse other than saying "they are over sellling".
    If a host maintains his server well within his limits and switches over to new one after a percentage of resources, there is nothing wrong in what he is doing with prices.

  30. #30
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    These days, in WHT, the term "Over selling" is used by some of incompetent and not very competitive hosts to scare the users in hope of attracting to their own services, IMO.

    And many of them do oversell resources themselves.
    If they offer "unlimited" subdomain, for example, I'd say they are already overselling.

    Think about it. If all users started to create "unlimited" subdomains, can server take it?

    I think people new to hosting should stay away from those who accuse other hosts as "over sellers", in general.
    They are just afraid of (often bigger) more competitive hosts, and trying to attack them by over selling the scary term "overselling".

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by extras
    These days, in WHT, the term "Over selling" is used by some of incompetent and not very competitive hosts to scare the users in hope of attracting to their own services, IMO.

    And many of them do oversell resources themselves.
    If they offer "unlimited" subdomain, for example, I'd say they are already overselling.

    Think about it. If all users started to create "unlimited" subdomains, can server take it?

    I think people new to hosting should stay away from those who accuse other hosts as "over sellers", in general.
    They are just afraid of (often bigger) more competitive hosts, and trying to attack them by over selling the scary term "overselling".
    The bottomline lies in experience and the quality of service one wants to maitain. The term in itself has nothing in it.
    The slogans of unlimited Or very high figures of any of the resources is basically to attract customers. It just gives an sense of sufficent resources available and nothing else. If one has been in the hosting industry for a while, one would know it well that only very minute percentage of the user (may be 0.5%) or even less go on to what could be termed as miuse. So to me overselling in itseld shall not go down as unethical or some thing which shall retard ability of the service provider to provide quality service.

  32. #32
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    Wow interesting discussion!

    OK guys let me just remind you that the issue really is not the if the word "overselling" is abused (for benefit or competition) in the webhosting industy but rather "how the ordinary customers can detect oversold servers (or overselling hosts) before they even host their sites on it".

    Again, is there really a way to check this? Or is this suppose to be based on the initiatives of the host to prove to their customers that their servers are not oversold?

    I understand that at some point, an undersold server may become oversold over time. But I am sure you will agree it is better to be in an undersold server rather than to be in an oversold one when you started hosting in it. So if there is a way to check, it will be good.

    (Gee, we got carried away already with the word. )

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  33. #33
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    Can you understand that ANY shared hosting server can go down suddenly with only one abuser (or heavy user, if you prefer), unless the host has the will and ability to controle the resource usage.

    So, the server performance has nothing to do with what these mostly incompetent hosts try to suggest with the term "overselling".

    If a host claim that they are "underselling" because they have only so and so sites per server, usually theya are suggesting that users would not experience slowness due to resource shortage.
    But clearly, the any server without strict resource control can slowdown and even crash, regardless of the number of users hosted.

    In short, it's nearly meaning less to discuss "oversold" or "undersold".

    It's better to discuss "the resource usage limits" and "how they are enforced",
    and also if the host has truly ability and willingness to enforce and control someone abusing the server, IMO.


    Just check those who talk about "overselling".
    Most of the time, they are cPanel hosts or small and not so competitive hosts,
    and they are selling "unlimited so and so (== overselling)", and their goal is to promote their own services.
    (Sometime, some of them do give helpful and exact suggestions, though.)
    Last edited by extras; 10-28-2006 at 01:05 PM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpsitesaver.com
    Wow interesting discussion!

    OK guys let me just remind you that the issue really is not the if the word "overselling" is abused (for benefit or competition) in the webhosting industy but rather "how the ordinary customers can detect oversold servers (or overselling hosts) before they even host their sites on it".

    Again, is there really a way to check this? Or is this suppose to be based on the initiatives of the host to prove to their customers that their servers are not oversold?

    I understand that at some point, an undersold server may become oversold over time. But I am sure you will agree it is better to be in an undersold server rather than to be in an oversold one when you started hosting in it. So if there is a way to check, it will be good.

    (Gee, we got carried away already with the word. )

    If you talk of cpanel linux there is a provision of server status in that. So before you host ask the hosting company for a demonstration or money back period. Test if they reflect the server status in cpanel or not. Leave them out, if the do not. Some other hosting panels also have the provision.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by extras
    Can you understand that ANY shared hosting server can go down suddenly with only one abuser (or heavy user, if you prefer), unless the host has the will and ability to controle the resource usage.

    So, the server performance has nothing to do with what these mostly incompetent hosts try to suggest with the term "overselling".

    If a host claim that they are "underselling" because they have only so and so sites per server, usually theya are suggesting that users would not experience slowness due to resource shortage.
    But clearly, the any server without strict resource control can slowdown and even crash, regardless of the number of users hosted.

    In short, it's nearly meaning less to discuss "oversold" or "undersold".

    It's better to discuss "the resource usage limits" and "how they are enforced",
    and also if the host has truly ability and willingness to enforce and control someone abusing the server, IMO.


    Just check those who talk about "overselling".
    Most of the time, they are cPanel hosts or small and not so competitive hosts,
    and they are selling "unlimited so and so (== overselling)", and their goal is to promote their own services.
    (Sometime, some of them do give helpful and exact suggestions, though.)
    What I fail to understand is that why some one shall handle a machine incorrectly knowing well that it will ruin him. If some one means business, he shall always take care of maching which brings him business. So whether he can over sell initially and than when he has resources created due to that sale, he can easily move to next server. (my calculation is that 1 server means selling 5 server safely when you need to move on to next server, and that is pretty good selling option).

    Supposing a server is of 80gb space and thus have say 60 GB space available for sale (space point of view alone) I do not think there shall be any server owner who allocate say 60 GB to his customers and despite all of them using only 12GB for years, shall keep changing the server. That to me is also an incorrect use of resources.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdoubt
    The best indicator if your or any host is overselling is the prices & packages

    for example: http://www.xstatichosting.com/

    If you see something like this red lights should be going off in your head.
    I think the owner of xstatichosting.com just does not know the difference between MB and GB.

    He/She probably meant to use MB instead of GB

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rois
    I think the owner of xstatichosting.com just does not know the difference between MB and GB.

    He/She probably meant to use MB instead of GB
    No I dont buy that - its competition and the owner of xstatic knows it - what they often do however is file limits when they give away the house like that and a LOT of other really dirty tricks -

    Just leaves me to wonder how many drives are plugged in and literally hanging by their cables out the front and back of those units they run I've visited other data centers and seen this first hand drives hanging by their cables out the front and back of 1u machines to support this kind of gross overselling practice.

    I just shake my head and sleep better at night knowing that our packages come with much less disk space but if a customer wants more we give it to them most times without even applying the fees but in all my years I dont ever recall a customer really needing 500 gig of disk space if they do they certainly need a dedicated machine not virtual and not vps.

    My other pet peeve is doing a walk thru of a very large company whom I wont name - but I recently visited in the LA area - upon entering the data center machine after machine after machine sitting on the floor with covers off - now Ill be the first to tell you on occasion we've been known to pop a top or two because some units do just run hot even with excellent maint schedules but for the life of me NEVER on the floor does a server belong I dont care what the situation is crash cart it if need be but not on the floor - a lot of you would really be shocked at some of the things Ive witnessed over the years.

    Things that make you go Hmmmmm!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina
    Which is completely useless information and totally inaccurate.

    --Tina
    Agreed. it's VERY inaccurate.

    Not only that, it's got inherent flaws in it's own process.

    What if you had 50 IPs on one server and they're designated to 50 resellers all using each one as a shared IP? kind of rules out anything.

    Also, there's not a thing wrong with a host not telling anyone how many sites are on a server. Especially since it's completely irrelevant.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by e-places
    Agreed. it's VERY inaccurate.

    Not only that, it's got inherent flaws in it's own process.

    What if you had 50 IPs on one server and they're designated to 50 resellers all using each one as a shared IP? kind of rules out anything
    I totally and wholeheartedly agree - to base a decision on that is crazy!

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