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  1. #1

    US companies that host Iranian sites

    will be edited and posted in a while
    Last edited by Colorzilla; 10-21-2006 at 10:53 AM.

  2. #2
    This is intended to be a discussion about US hosting companies that knowingly accept Iranian customers and furthermore let them act in violation of the company policies and terms of service, So please don't make it political or religious or whatever that is not related to the subject.

    As for me, I'm seeking for your expert advice and information regarding the topic so long as it is within forum rules.
    I think in most hosting discussion forums, serious talking about this aspect of hosting business has always been missing.

    The US hosts usually do not avoid the provision of their services to persons in Iran or the Islamic Republic regime. Those that take evidential reports into consideration and account are very few and generally are not concerned about this matter and/or copyright infringement/violations of their AUP until they see their actions may be brought to public or federal governments attention.

    There are many kinds of Iranian sites hosted on US servers.
    Emailing abuse at x dot com's in which x replaces most of US hosts, has often been a waste of time and energy no matter of how much precise details, records and evidence sent to them.

    At this point, we need some examples and as this forum is not a court or trial, any responsive representative of the companies involved in the matter whose their trade names get mentioned here are very welcome to join the thread and clear themselves of blame.

    Initially some background legal information is needed to start with.

    Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control has issued a June 2003 ruling that hosting Iranian Web sites violates the Trading With the Enemy Act.
    The provision of marketing services to persons in Iran or the Government of Iran, as well as the exportation, reexportation, sale, or supply, directly or indirectly, from the United States, or by a United States person, wherever located, of any goods, technology, or services to Iran or the Government of Iran is prohibited under the ITR.
    The provision by U.S. persons of Internet access to Iran falls within the scope of the prohibitions contained in the Iranian Transactions Regulations, 31 C.F.R. Part 560 (the “ITR”), on providing services to persons in Iran or the Government of Iran, or where the benefit of such services is otherwise received in Iran. ITR, §§ 560.204, 560.410.
    I don't like tough bad guys, therefore, the first example would be Softlayer.
    Softlayer <URL Removed:to respect WHT forums restrictions> with their American "leading edge hardware and proprietary management portal", delivers next generation virtual IT environments for Blackmice or BMC at <URL Removed:to respect WHT forums restrictions>.
    BMC IP address is: 75.126.42.213 and Locates in: United States - Softlayer Technologies Inc, other whois records are available at:
    <URL Removed:to respect WHT forums restrictions>

    Softlayer presents:
    1. Applications(Warez) at:
    <URL Removed:to respect WHT forums restrictions>

    2. Ebooks and Magazines at:
    <URL Removed:to respect WHT forums restrictions>

    3. Templates, Fonts, Wallpapers & Icons at:
    <URL Removed:to respect WHT forums restrictions>

    4. Movies and Music Downloads at:
    <URL Removed:to respect WHT forums restrictions>

    What do you think of Softlayer and the motives they may have for empowering Iranians to administer a site that is promoting what is commonly referred to as illegal content?
    What's been said about emailing is tested with this softlayer,
    discussing the matter can help to find out why some US hosting companies are interested to do likewise in similar cases.

    Please tell me If you consider the softlayer example inappropriate.

    In my opinion the subject is an important matter which needs some comprehensive argument/analysis on its causes/consequences.
    Last edited by Colorzilla; 10-21-2006 at 11:21 AM.

  3. #3
    The first post wasn't editable anymore when I found out forbidding javascript messes up the paragraph formatting at WHT. I'm sorry for that.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorzilla
    The first post wasn't editable anymore when I found out forbidding javascript messes up the paragraph formatting at WHT. I'm sorry for that.
    So I dont follow, is your issue here the fact that people are hosting copyrighted materials, or the fact that they're illegally hosting iranian web sites?

    How do you specifically tie these two together as-if its something unique (as legitimate copyright infringement/software piracy exists on every domain suffix, what makes .ir special)? Its funny that I never hear Americans talking about all of the software piracy from .cu domains (damn you Fildel!).
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  5. #5
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    Good idea for a thread, which makes me think we should start another:

    "How do you feel about U.S. hosting companies or web service companies that promote and accept carpet bombing of the middle east in order to serve the petroleum needs of Americans".

    Back on topic of this thread, I'd like to ask the original poster when they will be demanding that Dick Cheney be brought up on charges for allowing his former company, Halliburton (subsidiaries thereof), to trade with "the enemy" -- Iran.

    In fact, Cheney kept arguing at the time, as CEO of Halliburton, that his company should not be prevented from dealing with Iran.

    I wonder also if the original poster will be seeking war crimes trials for those involved in destruction of an Iranian civilian airliner, Iran Air flight 655, shot down by the USS Vincennes, killing 290? This was during the good ol' days when the U.S. was openly supporting Saddam Hussein, remember? (not to mention illegally selling weapons to the Iranians too. Good one, Colonel North!)

    Seems to me that's a bigger "oops" than hosting a web site, but what do I know.

    Seems to me that the original poster is being sanctimonious and very selective about some laws while completely ignoring how the U.S. has broken its own and international laws with respect to Iran, repeatedly, and lets not forget the fact that the U.S. has killed more Iranians over time than the reverse, by a factor of many thousands of times and that Iran has never launched an attack on U.S. soil while the U.S. certainly has - both directly and indirectly through Iraq.

    Yes, lets now talk about web sites.
    “Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under
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  6. #6
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    Oh and by the way: I've no problem with a law that prohibits such commercial relationships, but I do have a problem if its applied unequally (hence my comments about Cheney).

    Probably my post above should be moved to "social issues", which I'd not have a problem with, although my comments were made with the aformentioned desire to see laws equally interpreted and enforced, which no doubt is on-topic enough for this particular thread.
    “Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under
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  7. #7
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    US laws prohibit trade with Iran.

    I have no opinions on this. But we deny Iranian customers because very frankly we do not want to break any law.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yash-JH
    US laws prohibit trade with Iran.

    I have no opinions on this. But we deny Iranian customers because very frankly we do not want to break any law.
    Just out of curiousity, re: breaking U.S. Law, do you also block customers from the SDN list?

    http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforce...sdn/t11sdn.pdf

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    I do not see whats funny. You cannot knowingly do trade with an Iranian firm/person per US laws.

    With the SDN list, people are going to be using aliases. There is no way you can know. And screening for names is not practical/time consuming. We've had a case where we were hosting a site of a known terrorist outfit blacklisted by the US. The FBI contacted us and we made details available to them and shut down their website.

    I have nothing against the Iranian people. I do not have any opinions on US policy in the middle-east. But yes, I couldn't break US laws and risk action against our company.

    There is nothing funny about it. If we were operating out of another country, we wouldn't have had any restrictions.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yash-JH
    With the SDN list, people are going to be using aliases. There is no way you can know. And screening for names is not practical/time consuming.
    However, thats what you're expected to do by US law, you're not saying that you only obey laws that are practical now are you?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yash-JH
    But yes, I couldn't break US laws and risk action against our company.
    If you dont scan the SDN list to avoid providing services to people within that list, then you are risking breaking the law. The SDN list is serious stuff (no laughing, really!).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yash-JH
    There is nothing funny about it.
    For Americans? I guess not. For anyone else, reading the SDN list is ridiculous (and thus funny), the fact you're expected to deny services to citizens of more then half a dozen countries (cant find the list offhand, they revamped the page), and hundreds of thousands of people is a joke.
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    We deny any orders from countries explicitly embargoed by the US or United Nations.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by mwatkins
    Good idea for a thread, which makes me think we should start another:

    ...

    Yes, lets now talk about web sites.
    I begged you not to bring politics into this topic, this is not the lounge.

    Believe it or not, nothing could or will ever destroy the Land of Iran as much as its occupiers have ruined it in 28 years. You can't imagine how many people have been killed by the regime that calls itself "Nezam e Moghadas e Jomhoori e Eslami"(=The Holy regime of the Islamic Republic). I believe no force is more destructive than Rel....., specially the last official one.

    I can't get your point, do you mean all Americans including hosting companies must support Allah/God/etc's successors on earth(His Holiness Khamenei, Islamic President Ahmadinejad and co) like Dick Cheney did as CEO of Halliburton dealing with the I.R.?

    When "the USS Vincennes" shot down "Iran Air flight 655", it did what the Islamic Republic's been doing for more than a quarter of century, killing people.

    In comparison hosting the I.R. websites is not just trading with "the enemy", it's somehow supporting the killers.

    The Army of Is... is determined to conquer the Great Satan sometime in future, perhaps with Isl...c Nuclear weapons. In Is... "Taghieh Kardan"(= to prevaricate) is meritorious when it comes to Maslahat(=Expediency) of Is... and Mus...s.
    Last edited by Colorzilla; 10-21-2006 at 02:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by porcupine
    However, thats what you're expected to do by US law, you're not saying that you only obey laws that are practical now are you?!
    Oh please. There is no pratical way for a host to screen for thousands of names. There could be hundreds of people with the same name. There is no way for a host to screen thousands of files for copyrighted material. That doesn't mean I am breaking a copyright law. when information is provided, we so act.

    We can deny Iranian signups by simply not accepting orders from iran. When you are signing up a customer, you actively verify them hence you KNOW who you are doing business with. If you do business with an Iranian entity knowingly, you are breaking US law.

    Is that clear or is this somehow funny to you still??
    And trust me, we have had a criminal/terrorist on the SDN list hosted on our server via another customer acting as a proxy. And we've worked with the FBI/Homeland security in that case. And really, they do not expect hosts to be detectives and spend many hours screening for such names.


    For Americans? I guess not. For anyone else, reading the SDN list is ridiculous (and thus funny), the fact you're expected to deny services to citizens of more then half a dozen countries (cant find the list offhand, they revamped the page), and hundreds of thousands of people is a joke.
    No I don't think the SDN list is funny at all. There are many names in that list that are serious threats to security. But yes its an American list so if you are not operating in the US, I wouldn't expect you to care.


    As for the US embargo on Iran, once again I have no opinion on this (and even if I had, I wouldn't make it public). I know some Iranian people and they are very nice people. But US hosts really can't do business with them unless they wish to risk breaking the law.
    Last edited by Yash-JH; 10-21-2006 at 02:59 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yash-JH
    Oh please. There is no pratical way for a host to screen for thousands of names. There could be hundreds of people with the same name.
    That was just my point, the law is too inconvinient, and thus is not obeyed (even you've admitted that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yash-JH
    We can deny Iranian signups by simply not accepting orders from iran. When you are signing up a customer, you actively verify them hence you KNOW who you are doing business with. If you do business with an Iranian entity knowingly, you are breaking US law.
    Ok, so then you also deny signups from customers in the Balkans, Burma, Cuba, Iraq, Liberia, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Zimbabwe (counting down the embargo list)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yash-JH
    Is that clear or is this somehow funny to you still??
    Indeed, funny in the pathetic sense, its ridiculous, and theres no denying that. It makes me think of the US no fly list, that has to meet quotas regarding the number of people added every year, which ultimately leads to thousands of false positives (well documented), including but not limited to hundreds of *DEAD* people, many of which who have been dead for years (did you know the US no fly list includes 14 of the original 19 9/11 hijackers? All dead).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yash-JH
    And trust me, we have had a criminal/terrorist on the SDN list hosted on our server via another customer acting as a proxy. And we've worked with the FBI/Homeland security in that case. And really, they do not expect hosts to be detectives and spend many hours screening for such names.
    Why do they publish the lists if they dont expect you to screen versus them? Of course they do, just because they didn't prosecute you, doesen't mean its acceptable. Thats much like the speed limits up here, they write 100, but nobody does < 120kph, just because they dont go after every driver doesen't mean 120 is suddenly acceptable (according to the law).
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    Quote Originally Posted by porcupine
    That was just my point, the law is too inconvinient, and thus is not obeyed (even you've admitted that).
    You obviously have little idea on how the law work. If you KNOWINGLY do business with an entity blacklisted under US law, you are committing a crime.
    If you do business with an Iranian company/person knowingly (which you do when they sign up with you), you are COMMITTING A CRIME as per US law.
    If you are unknowingly hosting a person in SDN list, you are not. However you MUST act when informed.
    Does that make sense to you? Talk to a lawyer if it doesn't.


    Ok, so then you also deny signups from customers in the Balkans, Burma, Cuba, Iraq, Liberia, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Zimbabwe (counting down the embargo list)?
    Yes, any country that has its against US laws to trade/do business with in IT services.
    Please double check your list, not all those countries have full trade embargoes against them. For example Burma has a trade embargo that relates to specific imports from that country.

    Indeed, funny in the pathetic sense, its ridiculous, and theres no denying that. It makes me think of the US no fly list, that has to meet quotas regarding the number of people added every year, which ultimately leads to thousands of false positives (well documented), including but not limited to hundreds of *DEAD* people, many of which who have been dead for years (did you know the US no fly list includes 14 of the original 19 9/11 hijackers? All dead).
    Yes, you hate American policies. Please take your non-sense to the Social forum. This is a Business forum and I am simply discussing US trade laws for US companies. Not US politics

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yash-JH
    You obviously have little idea on how the law work. If you KNOWINGLY do business with an entity blacklisted under US law, you are committing a crime.
    If you do business with an Iranian company/person knowingly (which you do when they sign up with you), you are COMMITTING A CRIME as per US law.
    If you are unknowingly hosting a person in SDN list, you are not. However you MUST act when informed.
    Does that make sense to you? Talk to a lawyer if it doesn't.
    Not really actually. Last time I checked, ignorance was not considered a valid excuse for breaking the law. Knowingly, or unknowingly, you're breaking the law.
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    Well, you basically are suggesting ignorance of the trade ban against Iran by US companies and are suggesting they freely do business with Iranian entities in violation of the law.

    You are basically saying since web hosts can't enforce SDN, we shouldn't enforce the strict trade embargo against Cuba, Iran and Syria. If you don't like US laws, don't operate in the country. Period.

    As for SDN, there is no pratical way web hosts can enforce it. There is no way a web host can positively identify an individual who signed up with them is on the SDN list. In sensitive areas such as banking, law enforcement works closely with those companies to ensure the list is enforced. For non-sensitive business areas, and from my experience, my best guess is they expect you to act when informed. They expect you to keep an eye out. They will prosecute you if you knowingly do business with a banned entity.

    The "knowingly do business" with a banned entity is very different from plain ignorance. It means you are actively participating in illegal trade and that according to US law is a serious criminal offense. If you are unknowingly providing web hosting services to a banned entity (and its almost impossible to know a person's real identity in internet trade) you are probably going to get a call from the FBI, and be asked to provide them client details and information. I doubt law enforcement is going to take a very serious view of hosting banned individuals in internet trade, given the nature of the business. They will expect you to cooperate though.

  18. #18
    I dont see much of a problem. Usually Payment Gateways are the ones that handle this. For example, PayPal does not allow you to even access their website from some countries.

    If they dont have a way to pay, they arent getting hosting from us.
    There are 3 kinds of people. People who can count and people who can't.

  19. #19
    I wouldn't host them, if anything I'd try to humiliate them. But I'm just proud to be not-Middle Eastern.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by joshcrick
    I wouldn't host them, if anything I'd try to humiliate them. But I'm just proud to be not-Middle Eastern.
    good for you sir.

    you should also be proud that you are so ignorant. im not middle easterner eaither, but at least i dont open my mouth when i dont know wtf im talking about.

    people like you are the ones that should be humilated.
    There are 3 kinds of people. People who can count and people who can't.

  21. #21
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    This isn't a forum to discuss politics.
    I would never humiliate an Iranian customer, they are legitimate paying customers.

    I do feel sorry about the current situation between the US and their government, by I harbor no ill-will to any people sanctioned by the US.

    However, I just do hope that customers in these countries understand that if a host accepts them, they are committing a crime.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshcrick
    I wouldn't host them, if anything I'd try to humiliate them. But I'm just proud to be not-Middle Eastern.
    Buy you are proud to be racist?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorzilla
    I begged you not to bring politics into this topic, this is not the lounge.
    Actually I didn't realize that it wasn't in the Social Issues forum at first, and therefore apologized by way of explanation in my second post.

    In summary, I have no problem obeying the law. I'm a law and order person and a long time conservative to boot. I don't have to like the law and therefore speak out against them where I must. Some laws deserve to be changed. And some need to be more equally enforced (hence my comment on Cheney).
    “Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under
    considerable economic stress at this period in history.”

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