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  1. #1

    What are Unix-based hosting clients doing in terms of replacing Microsoft FrontPage?

    Greetings:

    Microsoft FrontPage is at end of life, at least as it relates to Unix-based server extensions.

    What are you and your clients doing to replace Microsoft FrontPage-based and maintained sites?

    For those of you staying on the Unix operating system platform, what specific tool or tools (aka Web design client application) are you moving towards? Why?

    What are you and your clients doing in terms of extension-based functionality such as form-to-email and form-to-text file?

    Have you found any similar products to Microsoft FrontPage where the designer or end user can create forms which also function (i.e. they do not have to know perl or PHP or even how to install such a form-to-email or form-to-text file program)?

    If so what products?

    Thank you.
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    Peter M. Abraham
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  2. #2
    I for one cannot WAIT till Frontpage is nothing but ancient history.

    There are a LOT of options other then Frontpage (which I consider nothing more then an annoyance and crapware).

    Learn to use FTP, get a copy of Dreamweaver and learn how to code HTML and CSS. That's my reply to replacing FP.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynamicnet
    Greetings:

    Microsoft FrontPage is at end of life, at least as it relates to Unix-based server extensions.

    What are you and your clients doing to replace Microsoft FrontPage-based and maintained sites?

    For those of you staying on the Unix operating system platform, what specific tool or tools (aka Web design client application) are you moving towards? Why?

    What are you and your clients doing in terms of extension-based functionality such as form-to-email and form-to-text file?

    Have you found any similar products to Microsoft FrontPage where the designer or end user can create forms which also function (i.e. they do not have to know perl or PHP or even how to install such a form-to-email or form-to-text file program)?

    If so what products?

    Thank you.

    www.macromedia.com

  4. #4
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    Peter has a very good point. There are a LOT of people who have been using frontpage for years. A lot of these people don't know Microsoft has EOL'd support for it. I'd rather not have to tell my clients who use FP to "Learn to use FTP, get a copy of Dreamweaver and learn how to code HTML and CSS." but be able to offer a solution for them. After all, if these people wanted to code HTML and CSS they would have pursued adobe (formerly macromedia) years ago.
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    One freeware application I typically point people to is nvu since it is free and also works very good wysiwyg editor wise (more or less a smaller version of FP imo).
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  6. #6
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    Frontpage may be dead, but MS it will with Microsoft Expression Web Designer, which I think is going to replace it.
    Hopefuly, less buggy, but talking about MS that is almost impossible
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    One freeware application I typically point people to is nvu since it is free and also works very good wysiwyg editor wise (more or less a smaller version of FP imo).
    As pointed by Peter, HTML has limitations that were not present in FP.

    Regarding NVU, I like it as well, but I now stick with http://kompozer.net. At the end of the day it's still NVU really, but it's less buggy. At times NVU just doesn't work as expected.

  8. #8
    Greetings:

    Over the past eleven years, we've found most small businesses do not have anyone with experience with FTP (or even knows what FTP means after years of hosting).

    They want a Windows 200x/XP tool which is similar to the other tools they use, typically that of Word, Excell, Access, and PowerPoint.

    They don't know any programming, and would think perl had to do with sewing, and php is (I couldn't guess what they would think is php).

    So they do need something they can easily adapt (key word as adaptation does not always involve a lot of learning something brand new) which will allow their contact forms to still work without hiring designers or programmers.

    Thank you.
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  9. #9
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    Cool

    This is a definite quandary. I see it as Microsoft's way (as usual) of "forcing" hosts to run MS Servers (the new three-some replacements for FP will require Microsoft server software, they will do more etc. BUT leave those of us who have no desire to run Winders servers out in the cold )
    I have many clients who run FrontPage for the reasons mentioned above. Most of these are small business people who have used the program through it's incarnations over the years and who have no desire (or time) to learn Dreamweaver or CSS as FrontPage has been fine for what they do. Personally I have dealt with the FP "quirks" for so many years I can solve almost any problem they have as well as make FP "jump through hoops" most people couldn't if a client needed it to.
    These customers liked FP because they could do an easy form or change some text etc. quick & easy, the normal day-to-day stuff a small business person might do on their own to maintain a viable web presence without having to do a lot of learning code or CSS or whatever.

    FP is not totally EOL as far as "patches" yet but there will be no new versions so thus the quandary these people (many of my customers) are left with.
    So I wonder if there will be someone with a "FrontPage replacement" or someone with some spiffy software for a *nix host that will allow running the new incarnations of FrontPage (not likely from looking at the way they are totally asp and MsSQL dependent).

    I have had some of these inquiries already as customers start to notice and wonder "what am I going to do? I'm happy with my site, don't have time to rebuild the whole thing after learning some new product, etc" so FrontPage through '03 will continue to run for the foreseeable future IMHO until some changes come along and either more user-friendly programs than Dreamweaver appear or people gradually transition to something else.

    Personally I think it's typical of Microsoft but I don't like the way they are doing it. It would seem to make more sense to continue to offer FrontPage as a "transitional" product over a period of time so that customers could gradually make the move to new MS products or stay with slightly updated versions of what they are used to with perhaps a new FrontPage that would still function in a similar fashion but with notes that "you could do this cool thing if you had the new product" type marketing.

    I guess we will have to just wait & see what happens as hosts. Many customers do not want to change, maybe other products or software will come along, or maybe people will be forced to change...like it or not. I can't count the number of customers we have that tried the "trial" versions of Dreamweaver or other programs and couldn't use it and came back to FP in frustration.
    Nobody is going to change my opinion that the decision from Redmond is twofold (1) to offer products that will do more in today's "web world" and be more competitive, yes... BUT (2) to force more people to use Winders server software which is where their big money is.

    PS: The above was posted while I was typing and says exactly why I mean. They want a product similar to the Windows software they are used to and have no idea what FTP, CSS. php, Perl, (and a few even HTML) stands for...and mainly like simple forms to work and/or simple photo pages or a simple "two column" page template etc.
    Last edited by DDT; 10-14-2006 at 08:00 AM.
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  10. #10
    Greetings:

    "PS: The above was posted while I was typing and says exactly why I mean. They want a product similar to the Windows software they are used to and have no idea what FTP, CSS. php, Perl, (and a few even HTML) stands for...and mainly like simple forms to work and/or simple photo pages or a simple "two column" page template etc."

    Agreed.

    That's the problem for whicfh we would love a product-based solution would provide.

    Thank you.
    ---
    Peter M. Abraham
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  11. #11
    Have you found any similar products to Microsoft FrontPage where the designer or end user can create forms which also function (i.e. they do not have to know perl or PHP or even how to install such a form-to-email or form-to-text file program)?

    If so what products?
    Hello Peter, seems like it is time for your organization to move into the wonderful world of CMS.

    As you know, a CMS gives you the opportunity to manage, organize and publish web content from a GUI interface from pretty much any browser.

    In my humble opinion, the days of WYSIWYG editors has been obsolete for quite awhile now anyway. The functionality is limited, lack of interactivity and the final products they create simply do not cut it anymore in the modern internet. Lots of people use them still, but, that is simply because they havent been presented with a better option...

    We have moved most of our FP users over to a CMS long ago -

  12. #12
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    I’ve used Frontpage since FP 97. Now I use FP 03. FP 03 is a good program for us lazy people who do not want to fight with a lot of issues and want to build a site. I’ve also purchased and used GoLive, and Dreamweaver, but always returned to FP. I have friends that swear by either golive, Dreamweaver or FP. I guess it depends on what you like or like using. For me it is FP.

    The issues in the past, that I’ve seen, were not really with the program itself, but the people using the program. For example, I have several sites and I’ve built FP and you can’t tell that I used FP. You would never know. When FP first launched, many newbies simply used the FP templates (remember those?) and did not attempt to learn any html.

    Some webhosts had a hard time with Frontpage extensions working correctly. Been there, done that. After the launch of windows 2003, I would say FP extensions mellowed out and I’ve not seen a problem since (at my host at least). Then again, there are some quirks associated with FP extensions and some of the control panels, etc. also in using FTP, etc, etc, I could go on. FP users, for the most part, learn the hard way about these issues.

    Moving forward, MS has committed itself to provide a “standards compliant” product with web designer found at: http://www.microsoft.com/products/ex.../web_designer/ . So far the reviews are positive. In addition, MS has also committed itself not to leave old technologies in the dust. For example, you can (and I have) edit FP sites built with FP 03 with web designer without fault. The extensions work as before, everything.

    Web designer, the (not called) replacement to FP is an excellent product IMO. I’m biased, I know. It “feels” like FP. While you can’t create new FP forms, etc with WD, you can import other solutions with ease. It is not that hard to find a free form on the web to fit into WD with little effort to make it work.

    The problem is many forms can, and will, get hijacked or spammed with ease. This is not an issue with forms used with FP extensions for some reason. There are some forms that have fixes so they are not easily hijacked, but web hosts may have to provide them or at least provide a download.

    The new templates in WD are built with CSS… they are great. I’ve already built two sites with the beta product. For me it was a push to learn – or at least understand – CSS.

    Personally, I don’t think there will be too much of an issue with people moving from FP to WD.
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  13. #13
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    I disagree with the CMS argument. FrontPage is easy to use because if you know how to use Word, you can use FrontPage.

    I see two problems with CMS websites:

    1. They are not the most simple of things to setup and get how you like them. Also, they are not very customizable and quite restrictive.

    2. They do not look very professional for a business website for the most part. Also, they all look very similar, and unless you are extremely skilled at skinning them, they will look the same as the next CMS website you visit.

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  14. #14
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    Cool

    The OP was directed at people in general using frontPage or hosts hosting FrontPage and the future.
    Many replies such as "Try CMS, Or get Dreamweaver" are really . as is the reply that was "Go Microsoft -boo sine the OP was about *nix so the new MS products are not the answer.

    Personally I believe since there are already numerous FrontPage specialty sites out there people will continue to use it, the advances user community will "support it" and as Microsoft moves away one of them will have someone pop up with a very similar product.
    As to the post about people liking the the "feel" of Office products remember there is a plan...post-Vista there is a new Office in the wings that new users supposedly love and experienced users wail, waste time and can't figure out how to use as we get closer to "Macintosh on Windows" (I'm joking) but is how some folks have described the new toolbars and other Office functions, this is supposedly the most changed version of Office in years. So MS is going for the "next generation" with Vista, A new "Office" (including a "professional or regular-Outlook version choice") all new web design tools etc.

    Oh-boy the new Microsoft line, one can only imagine... since Vista is a year and a half late and may be here 1st of 2007 and might work as they say...but a 64 bit version is still far-far away (maybe late 2007) to make use of 2005's 64 bit chips much less 2006's dual core 64's and very much less an OS that will run on 2007's quad core 64 bit 1TB DDR3 RAM memory chips...so new MS software will already be years behind the day it finally ships. And I guarantee I feel for the first users of any of it.
    I tried a download of the RC IE7 on a box a couple of weeks ago. So next year MS IE will do what Firefox 1 did 3 years ago but with gaping security holes... I put it on a box with a good daily updated anti-virus, good spyware & ad ware blockers etc. and downloaded nothing but IE RC 7 (used little in the "Net and 100% sure nobody did anything "risky" with it) and in 2 days that box was loaded with porno files, strange tags buried into IE from Viagra sites etc. every one of which went right by the anti-virus & other programs. Thankfully a Microsoft beta tech spent an hour on the phone helping me get it all off (including IE7) and after about 15 scans and a couple of registry clean ups over a couple of weeks I think-maybe that box is clean again...and that's the "final" RC version...I sure won't be 1st in line for Vista or the new Office

    But back on topic, FP will still work, people will continue to work with '03 and hosts will offer extensions, but there is no "off the shelf" product ready to completely replace FrontPage. The reason I think something will pop up is MS is giving away old versions of FP on their site already for download so the "workings" of FrontPage may become more accessible and a more similar program may come along without risking being sued by the mighty Microsoft. Maybe kind of along the lines of what Open Office has done...
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  15. #15
    Many replies such as "Try CMS, Or get Dreamweaver" are really . as is the reply that was "Go Microsoft -boo
    Not really

    but there is no "off the shelf" product ready to completely replace FrontPage.
    Exactly - and really, there shouldnt be and I am not certain anyone will want to target that diminishing market segment

    sine the OP was about *nix so the new MS products are not the answer.
    Exactly - the OP asked:

    What are you and your clients doing in terms of extension-based functionality such as form-to-email and form-to-text file?

    Have you found any similar products to Microsoft FrontPage where the designer or end user can create forms which also function (i.e. they do not have to know perl or PHP or even how to install such a form-to-email or form-to-text file program)?

    If so what products?
    Only so many options here dont you think?

    2. They do not look very professional for a business website for the most part. Also, they all look very similar
    I keep hearing this opinion on these forums - and it is reqlly strange coming from a group of web professionals...

    almost every major company in the world is using a CMS (IBM, Dell, HP, Microsoft themselves, etc) - not many of them look "similar" and their capabilities are endless - unlike Frontpage which is quite limited.

    Personally, I believe that statement is most true about FrontPage sites (do not look professional and they all look very similar)

    End of the day, I do not think you are any further "behind" with a CMS vs a MS FrontPage site - if you want a high end design, it will cost you money (or you need to have the skillset) - eitherway with FP or a CMS - if you want advanced functionality - its not even really available with frontpage - and if you just want a simple website, that really will not be overly impressive and will look similar to other sites - then whether an average user uses frontpage or a CMS - there really is no difference - as that is what they will get (at least with a CMS, they will have ALOT more options moving forward)

  16. #16
    Greetings:

    "Exactly - and really, there shouldnt be and I am not certain anyone will want to target that diminishing market segment"

    Why do you believe the market is diminishing?

    Are you aware of how many existing sites are running Microsoft FrontPage utilizing the extensions for form-to-email and other interactive tasks?

    This reminds me of my early software development years when I wanted to replace COBOL with Modula II or a similar, advanced, language of the time at the company who employed me.

    The IT manager, pointed me towards 15,000 COBOL programs that were used throughout the month to manage the leasing company's applications. He basically stated, go for it, if you can get it done within one year without any down time.

    I can share with you, I shut up quickly ;-)

    While I'm a former Microsoft FrontPage MVP, and I can appreciate the client side, I never appreciated the extension side from a system administrator point of view.

    However, people did and are still now using the product. And there are a large quantity of sites out there that rely on the extensions.

    For providers hosting FrontPage-based sites on Unix who cannot provide easy-to-transition alternatives to small businesses who don't want to hire a designer or programmer, there will be market share problems -- and it will mainly be problems for the provider, not Microsoft or a Microsoft competitor.

    That's why this thread exists, to find out solutions which may be applicable.

    Thank you.
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  17. #17
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    Cool

    CartikaHosting,
    I’m not being personal, just trying to stay “on topic” here so I’ll play “devil’s advocate" and use one of my clients as an example:


    He has 3 web sites. He operates 3 businesses one of which is on-line semi-e-commerce related but he uses a 3rd party service for that so it wouldn’t be affected.

    However he uses the 2 FP web sites to drive business to his off-line businesses and 1 to drive business to his e-commerce business. His regular businesses consume all his time. He is “over-extended” in every sense of the word always having to “bail out” one of his other businesses because somebody quit or a foreman or manager had a family crises or whatever and that business was left short-handed so you could “blame” him in many ways for being a bad executive or manager or whatever but it’s his life. And blaming won’t do anybody any good.


    The point well-taken by the OP was he has been using the ‘net since the mid-90s and has never used anything but FrontPage. He hardly has time for a “life” as it is so he surely has no time to re-design his sites, learn some new program be it CMS or Dreamweaver or whatever, even the new Microsoft products are something he has no time nor desire to “mess with”.


    What is he going to do? I know:
    He will ask me (the host) what he should do! And I don't have a good answer.


    As it is he can add some text or photos or make changes to his FP sites fairly easily. His businesses do not depend in any way on having all the abilities of features the new CMS or other programs would offer. Sure it would be “cool” and more modern if he did but that’s not his needs.

    He doesn’t have the money from any of these ventures to pay a programmer even if he could find one that could handle the 3 separate but equal businesses to re-design all his sites and keep them on retainer so he could have changes made “as needed”.

    He knows FrontPage not as an “expert” but enough to get done what he needs...it works for him.
    So as a host all I can do is continue to offer him good hosting “as is”. He’s happy, I’m happy, life is OK.
    But without FP in the future or a similar easy to use and easy for him to “transition” to program he will be screwed.
    As a host it’s not my place (or yours) to tell him “you should have learned HTML or Dreamweaver or CMS or something years ago! Now look at the mess you are in.”


    This is a mess of Microsoft’s making. Not my doing, not his doing (nothing on FP ’03 said “buy this but realize it is EOL you need to get ready to move on, you have 3-4 years to make the change”)


    Surely there are thousands of people like him. I’m not as big a host as you and I have tons of them so I would imagine you have a bunch yourself. These are people that have sites that “work” for them using FP, maybe not as cool or up to date as other technologies but they are not in a position to “change” web software easily or efficiently or cost-effectively.


    So debate over whether or not FrontPage is or ever was ever a “good” program is pointless. This is the situation these people and we as hosts are “stuck” in. Hopefully it will all work out, but it is still a mess at the moment with much uncertainty for thousands of people and their hosts.


    I know how many new clients I have had over the years that thought because Publisher said you could make a document into a web site it would work (we all know it kind-of does but not really and not in any workable fashion) . These people were upset enough but at least Publisher had usually come pre-installed on their computer so it wasn’t like they bought a web program so they weren’t terribly upset (upset yes, but not overwhelmed when we explained that Microsoft “kind-of” lied. It will “kind-of” make a web site but nothing suitable for what they thought...lay out a Publisher document-one click make into a web site-"poof" easy web site that looks as good as the print document)

    So imagine this from a person’s point-of view who bought FrontPage because it WAS a "professional" web site design program (that’s what the box said).

    The point of the topic to me was what are we going to do as hosts? Of course we will have to keep supporting FP extensions but (and I believe you have Winders servers too so remember the OP was about *nix) will clients want to move to the new MS web products? (As a host that would force us to lose clients or start offering Winders servers which we personally don’t care to do) Will they be like the client I mentioned above, just “stuck”? (So we keep running some servers with the “old” FP support for folks like him)


    Debating the pros & cons of FrontPage isn’t the point of all this for me. For me it’s about knowing I will have to continue to support FP “as is”, also considering if we want the hassle of supporting the new MS products (maybe, but not really as it looks now) and more than anything what advice will we (as the people they think are experts) tell clients they should do that really is the best idea for them in their circumstances?



    Nowadays with all the Site Builders I have seen a big drop in new FP clients, ours (and most) site builders will do an equitable job to FP as easily and they don't have to spend money on software. So I can see why Microsoft is moving away from it. But for people like my client above who learned enough to make custom FP templates etc. and has no time to learn change, and who needs more than a "site builder" would do he will be asking me that question, probably sooner than I want to hear it, and I don't have a good answer as yet.
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  18. #18
    So debate over whether or not FrontPage is or ever was ever a “good” program is pointless. This is the situation these people and we as hosts are “stuck” in. Hopefully it will all work out, but it is still a mess at the moment with much uncertainty for thousands of people and their hosts.
    LOL - fair enough...

    Nowadays with all the Site Builders I have seen a big drop in new FP clients, ours (and most) site builders will do an equitable job to FP as easily and they don't have to spend money on software. So I can see why Microsoft is moving away from it. But for people like my client above who learned enough to make custom FP templates etc. and has no time to learn change, and who needs more than a "site builder" would do he will be asking me that question, probably sooner than I want to hear it, and I don't have a good answer as yet.
    Its certainly a concern - however, people need to adapt to stay in business and stay competitive. I know you do not want to discuss the relative advantages/disadvantages of front page, but, that is exactly what we are talking about here - let me ask you and dynamicnet a question

    do you believe that anyone (or at least any significant number of customers) will be using FP in 5 years? If the answer is yes, then you obviously need to find a solution and somehow make this work for you and your clients. If you think the answer is no - then you are doing your customers a favour by helping them adapt and change proactively...

    You are both right of course - it is my opinion that items like FP are a thing of the past and represent a dramatically shrinking market space - others obviously believe differently and are probably right (wont be the first time I made an error in judgement)

    however, the OP asked to hear what others are doing and asked for any alternatives. I simply presented what we are doing and what has worked very well for us..

    Carry on with the discussion on FP and options, I am gracefully bowing out
    Last edited by cartika-andrew; 10-15-2006 at 12:27 PM.

  19. #19
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    Cool

    No I don't foresee people still using it as a "new site" tool in 5 years, but heck I have customers that haven't updated their sites in 4 years so will there still be old ones? I imagine so...

    But the question I wish I had an answer to is what was already asked in the thread, what programs I can recommend to customers that are (a) WYSIWYG (b) you can know nothing about coding or scripting and still do forms, galleries, thumbnails, etc. that work. (c) navigation buttons/banners/ borders etc. can all be coordinated so simply with someone who knows nothing about how to do these things manually (the MS "web bot" stuff) and (d) they can upload & download so easily...no good answers I know for people who have become used to FrontPage.

    I agree 100% that directing them to modern technologies would be a very "responsible" thing to do... but there just isn't something they can easily transition to at this time that I know of...
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldcdc
    As pointed by Peter, HTML has limitations that were not present in FP.

    Please elucidate.

  21. #21
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    I agree with both Dynamicnet and DDT.

    Although a programmer by formal training - I remember the COBOL days - I now have a small business and have been using FP since it was introduced. FP is buggy, but reliably buggy; that is to say, once you have figured out the work arounds, the work arounds work every time. And by adding scripts to the .htaccess file, you can overcome FP shortcomings. (i. e. cPanel's hotlink protection doesn't work with FP extensions.)

    This is the big advantage of FP - it is clean and text - what the search engines like - you have a good shot at placing high in the SERPS with the uncomplicated, easy for searchbots, FP - after all, the purpose of a website.

    Over the years I have flirted with DW several times as well as others, but never decided to migrate away from FP because it did what I wanted it to do fairly quickly, and I didn't have to fiddle with the design elements - I could just upload my meat and potatoes and voila - without FTP - I was live. And, FP has site-management features such as broken links report, etc.

    Question: Just because Microsoft isn't supporting FP anymore, why does that make a difference to hosting? Since there won't be an upgrade to FP, the extensions will still be the same you are now working with. Why the angst? (As you see from this question, I am not sys admin)

    I will take a look at Microsoft Expression - the programmer side of me loves new software - but the business side of me wants what works quickly and easily and without downtime.

    By the way, since Adobe now has Dreamweaver, who knows what is going to happen to it. Will it continue to be developed/supported or left to wither?

  22. #22
    I think everyone is getting away from the point. The question is not what the end users are going to do when FP reaches it's EOL, but what, as hosts, are we going to do.

    And the simply answer is easy. Nothing. Any FP replacement solution that requires proprietary solutions from M$ in order to function is NOT a viable avenue IMHO. It's just going to lead to the same mess we have now. M$ dictating standards and clueless clients whining in support tickets because FP is not working or it hiccuped and messed up the site, etc.

    I for one will NOT miss it.

    And I have not seen anything that is being done in FP that cannot be down in Dreamweaver WITHOUT the proprietary extensions. Is there a learning curve? sure..but it's NOT insurmountable.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynamicnet
    Greetings:

    Microsoft FrontPage is at end of life, at least as it relates to Unix-based server extensions.

    What are you and your clients doing to replace Microsoft FrontPage-based and maintained sites?

    For those of you staying on the Unix operating system platform, what specific tool or tools (aka Web design client application) are you moving towards? Why?

    What are you and your clients doing in terms of extension-based functionality such as form-to-email and form-to-text file?

    Have you found any similar products to Microsoft FrontPage where the designer or end user can create forms which also function (i.e. they do not have to know perl or PHP or even how to install such a form-to-email or form-to-text file program)?

    If so what products?

    Thank you.

    Wow, Frontpage support is going away? Do you have a link to Microsoft's announcement/policy?

    Thanks - Brian
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  24. #24
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtieFishill
    I think everyone is getting away from the point. The question is not what the end users are going to do when FP reaches it's EOL, but what, as hosts, are we going to do.

    And the simply answer is easy. Nothing. Any FP replacement solution that requires proprietary solutions from M$ in order to function is NOT a viable avenue IMHO. It's just going to lead to the same mess we have now. M$ dictating standards and clueless clients whining in support tickets because FP is not working or it hiccuped and messed up the site, etc.

    I for one will NOT miss it.
    So you are ready (as a *nix host from the OP) to go to Windows servers to accommodate the 100% proprietary software of the new generation of 3 Microsoft products that replace FrontPage? Or do you have an easy and not "buggy" way to run asp, dot-net, and MsSQL on *nix?

    I always liked when customers had FrontPage "hiccups" because "in the past" we offered paid FrontPage support as an add-on... convenient & cheaper than Microsoft and like the above post said 99.9% of the time the bugs were the same... (which we don't really do any more since they quit actively selling it)

    But the above is the impression I get from your post...you are just switching from *nix to Windows so you can support FP and it's replacements?? Then I guess your answer to the OP is "as a *nix host I'm switching to Windows servers"?


    To the above:
    What happened to FrontPage?

    After nine years of being an award-winning Web authoring tool, FrontPage will be discontinued in late 2006. We will continue to serve the diverse needs of our existing FrontPage customers with the introduction of these three brand-new application building and Web authoring tools using the latest technologies, Microsoft® Office SharePoint® Designer 2007 for the enterprise information workers, Microsoft® Expression™ Web Designer for the professional Web designer and Microsoft® Visual Studio 2005 for the Web developer.
    http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/as...205221033.aspx
    Last edited by DDT; 10-16-2006 at 07:30 AM.
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  25. #25
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    I know its EOL, but why cant we continue to use FrontPage Extensions on our servers and users continue to use FrontPage 2003?

    Just because there is a new standard, does not mean the old one should be thrown away.

    Many users are quite happy using FP 2003 and just because Microsoft changes it all, the average user isnt going to want to change everything including their web host just to be able to accomodate Microsofts decisions and changes.

    Or will FrontPage extensions suddenly become very insecure? Am I missing something here?

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  26. #26
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    And everyone thought MS didn't have a replacement lined up.....

    http://www.microsoft.com/products/ex...ree_trial.aspx

  27. #27
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    Cool

    Yes, we all know that, it's what I was talking about (and it's 2 variations) but they all require Windows Servers.

    I agree with the above...as hosts what will we do...nothing, there is nothing we can do. BUT what will we tell our FP clients that love our hosting but maybe want the new MS products? I for one have no desire to offer Windows hosting. BUT I have many FrontPage clients, so if I get a significant number who for some reason want these new MS products I have the "rock & a hard place" situation of either getting into Windows Servers or losing customers.
    And I know many people do both...but it involves 2 sets of everything (patches, support issues, etc.) rather than one.

    Personally I still think it's mainly a move to transition MS customers from FP to these new products with the primary intent being to force more hosts to use Windows Servers (that's how MS got so rich in the fist place with DOS) whether we like it or not, or lose that segment of potential business.
    As it is now unless someone just prefers programming for Microsoft only; a designer surely doesn't have to, so we *nix hosts have a fairly equal shot at any particular business.
    But FrontPage is undoubtedly the largest "DIY" program used by the "average Joe" making his own web site (especially with the popularity of the "Office" suite) so if over the next few years substantial numbers of clients begin to transition to the new MS products we will have that "rock & a hard place" decision to make.
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  28. #28

    I am suprised the MS Expression is tightly coupled to Windows server

    Expression looked like it had the makings of an excellent modern, standards-compliant web site editor. How very unfortunate they won't support other server platforms.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by DDT
    So you are ready (as a *nix host from the OP) to go to Windows servers to accommodate the 100% proprietary software of the new generation of 3 Microsoft products that replace FrontPage? Or do you have an easy and not "buggy" way to run asp, dot-net, and MsSQL on *nix?
    Not quite sure how you got the impression I was even considering switching to Wincrap servers? Why would I want to hobble my servers like that?

    No, I am ready to tell anyone who needs that type of functionality to look elsewhere. I don't deal in M$ servers, period. Don't support ASP, ASP.NET or msSQL, and probably never will.

    Again, you're letting M$ dictate how you run your business. I make it very clear to my clients. Frontpage extentions are provided as a courtesy, nothing more. Doesn't work? Not my problem, talk to Bill or switch to a compatible, industry standard method of maintaining your site.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by DDT
    Yes, we all know that, it's what I was talking about (and it's 2 variations) but they all require Windows Servers.

    I agree with the above...as hosts what will we do...nothing, there is nothing we can do. BUT what will we tell our FP clients that love our hosting but maybe want the new MS products? I for one have no desire to offer Windows hosting. BUT I have many FrontPage clients, so if I get a significant number who for some reason want these new MS products I have the "rock & a hard place" situation of either getting into Windows Servers or losing customers.
    And I know many people do both...but it involves 2 sets of everything (patches, support issues, etc.) rather than one.

    Personally I still think it's mainly a move to transition MS customers from FP to these new products with the primary intent being to force more hosts to use Windows Servers (that's how MS got so rich in the fist place with DOS) whether we like it or not, or lose that segment of potential business.
    As it is now unless someone just prefers programming for Microsoft only; a designer surely doesn't have to, so we *nix hosts have a fairly equal shot at any particular business.
    But FrontPage is undoubtedly the largest "DIY" program used by the "average Joe" making his own web site (especially with the popularity of the "Office" suite) so if over the next few years substantial numbers of clients begin to transition to the new MS products we will have that "rock & a hard place" decision to make.
    Not a hard decision for me. I am a Linux host. Period. If I lose clients, so be it.

  31. #31
    But guys, if you are going to add new servers (which runs on top of 64-bit environment), you will need to face the problem that Frontpage Server Extension will not even work on it (unless you stick to the older 32-bit OS), what will be your choice? Give up 64-bit technologies? Or to still stick to 32-bit just because you want to continue the support of Frontpage Server Extension to new customers? I wonder...

  32. #32
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheSnowman
    As pointed by Peter, HTML has limitations that were not present in FP.

    Regarding NVU, I like it as well, but I now stick with http://kompozer.net. At the end of the day it's still NVU really, but it's less buggy. At times NVU just doesn't work as expected.
    Sorry to bring up this old thread but I started using Kompozer just recently and it seems to rewrite parts of the html so that I can't even include a simple page hit counter script without it corrupting it even though I have the "Retain original source formatting" box checked under "tools" "preferences". A couple of people have complained about this on the Kompozer forums but there have been no helpful responses. Anyone have any ideas?
    Everyone is entitled to MY opinion.
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  33. #33
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    Anyone have any ideas?
    Write your own [X]HTML.

  34. #34
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by layer0
    Write your own [X]HTML.
    Thanks for nothing!!!! If I could write all my own code, why in the #*^ # would I be wasting my time with a WYSIWYG editor?
    Everyone is entitled to MY opinion.
    CatfishEd.com

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by catfished
    Sorry to bring up this old thread but I started using Kompozer just recently and it seems to rewrite parts of the html so that I can't even include a simple page hit counter script without it corrupting it even though I have the "Retain original source formatting" box checked under "tools" "preferences". A couple of people have complained about this on the Kompozer forums but there have been no helpful responses. Anyone have any ideas?
    This should have been in its own thread, the thread you drug up has nothing to do with "how to use program xyz" ...

    Bailey
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  36. #36
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    Microsoft will never be able to win on this one unfortunately. They created Frontpage which was a Godsend to so many people. It helped small businesses create a website, forms, etc with no HTML experience.

    But coders hated Frontpage. Maybe it was the code it created. Maybe it was because it was Microsoft (since Dreamweaver did not get so much negative publicity). So now Microsoft listened and created Expressions - a great program that writes compliant HTML code. But guess what - all those Frontpage Components are gone. Yes you can still keep your form and any other FP component as long as you publish the website with Expressions but you won't be able to edit any of them - you will need to do that with Frontpage.

    Expressions and Frontpage can run on the same computer and you can easily open a website in Frontpage that you have previously opened in Expressions.

    But shame on Microsoft for helping thousands of small businesses start a website. Shame on them for listening to the coders and creating a program that small businessed cannot easily rely on any longer. Shame on them for making those businesses learn HTML code. Shame on them for making small businesses rely on a third party now to operate their website.

  37. #37
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    Frontpage is going away. it's being replaced with two pieces of software that so far seem very promising. Making this split was clear to MS early on. They knew they couldn't replace FP with a single solution.

    1. For sharepoint sites (which is truly the next logical step in FP) you'll use Sharepoint Designer

    2. For FTP based sites you'll use Microsoft Expression Web.

    I've been looking through and using Expression Web for the last week or so and it is a GREAT product and much better than FP. it handles css completely differently (and can be configured to attach all styles to an included css page, put all style code at the top of a page, or put the style tags inline with the HTML. Either way it does everything using CSS now) and can be configured to code pages for XHTML transitional or strict, or HTML 4.01 transitional or strict.

    Along with those it has code checkers in place that will highlight bad code and even tell you why if you hover over it.

    What's more, the reformat HTML option cleans up code very nicely.

    So far I can't see any reason not to use it. It's very well done, and if you're an FP user you'll be right at home with it.

    Sharepoint is designed for the.NET based CMS stuff, and Expression Web is for general design.

    P.S. I didn't even know about Expression Web until about a week ago and since then I've done a lot of research, and use it with my current front page sites.
    Last edited by fastnoc; 12-25-2006 at 10:08 PM.
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  38. #38
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    Expression Web can be considered the baby brother to Sharepoint. Sharepoint is geared more to corporations while Expression Web is geared to webmasters - not even the lay person unfortunately though. So many people who have relied on Frontpage Server Extensions to build their website can no longer do so.

    Microsoft Unveils Next Generation of Web Authoring and Design Tools

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corey Bryant
    Microsoft will never be able to win on this one unfortunately. They created Frontpage which was a Godsend to so many people. It helped small businesses create a website, forms, etc with no HTML experience.
    No, FrontPage was created by Vermeer Technologies, which was acquired by Microsoft in early 1996. The server-side extensions were an existing feature, and Microsoft promised to support them - which they did for far longer than I would have ever expected.

    http://www.seoconsultants.com/frontpage/history/

    Kevin

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